AI-generated transcript — it may contain errors; the recording is the authoritative record.

1. 00:00:29 Good afternoon members, officers. So good afternoon and welcome to the Education, Youth and Culture
2. 00:00:35 Overview Scrutiny Committee meeting this afternoon. Before we start the meeting and move on to items
3. 00:00:43 on the agenda, members will be aware of the sad news of the passing of Councillor Theresa
4. 00:00:50 Carberry, Chair of this committee, since her election in May 2022. She was passionate in her
5. 00:00:57 role and Councillor Carberry was a well-respected Chair and member of the Council, who was held in
6. 00:01:03 high regard by members and officers. We would like to send our condolences to her family and I ask all
7. 00:01:11 in attendance to please join me in minutes silence. Thank you very much. So moving on to, well it's not
8. 00:02:43 listed on the agenda, we need to appoint a Chair for this meeting alone, as we've had received
9. 00:02:51 apologies from the Vice Chair of the Committee, Councillor Gina Madison. So is there a proposal?
10. 00:03:01 So we have a proposal and seconder for Councillor Sean Bibby to chair the meeting today.
11. 00:03:07 Are there any other proposals? Can I propose Councillor Carolyn Priest, please?
12. 00:03:14 Thank you, that's Councillor Carolyn Priest. Have we got a seconder for Councillor Carolyn Priest?
13. 00:03:18 Councillor Mackie, thank you. Thank you. So could all the members who are voting in favour of Councillor
14. 00:03:30 Sean Bibby, please show? All those in favour of Councillor Carolyn Priest, please show?
15. 00:03:53 Okay, so that's seven votes for Councillor Bibby and four for Councillor Carolyn Priest,
16. 00:03:57 so I'd like to invite Councillor Bibby up to join me here, please. Thank you.
17. 00:04:00 Okay, thank you very much members, and thank you for putting me in the position of the Chair of this
18. 00:05:32 meeting temporarily. I think first things need to be said is that this is a terribly sad day,
19. 00:05:39 but we have found out that we've lost one of our treasured colleagues, Councillor Theresa Carberry.
20. 00:05:44 Councillor Carberry was a fantastic Councillor, a very passionate advocate of education through a lengthy
21. 00:05:52 professional career as a teacher, and as somebody incredibly proactive within the community of Mould,
22. 00:05:59 through our work as a County Councillor and a Town Councillor in Mould. And I think it needs to be said
23. 00:06:06 today that, you know, this is a very, very sad day that we have lost Theresa, and she is no longer with us.
24. 00:06:15 Theresa was a great friend to many people, and I appreciate today. It's going to be a very difficult
25. 00:06:20 one, and you know, I understand if members might feel rather emotional, if they do need a breather,
26. 00:06:26 then I'm quite happy to with that. You know, I spoke to Theresa that long ago. Theresa,
27. 00:06:35 unfortunately was very unwell towards the end of her life, but showed so much bravery and so much dignity
28. 00:06:42 in her final few months and weeks. And I think today we will obviously be thinking about Theresa,
29. 00:06:49 all her family, her friends and people in the wider community that lost a fantastic advocate and
30. 00:06:56 representative. Chief Officer.
31. 00:07:04 Theresa, this is unplanned, but obviously I would like to speak on behalf of the officer team, and I'm
32. 00:07:12 sorry if I'm going to get emotional. We have the greatest pleasure and privilege to work with Councillor
33. 00:07:19 Carberry, you know, as a member of this council, as the chair of this committee, and as a member of the group
34. 00:07:27 of elected members who worked with us around supporting our schools through various processes. She was always so
35. 00:07:34 committed, so professional, so compassionate, and always put the needs of learners first. And the support
36. 00:07:41 that she gave us just as the officer team of the portfolio was outstanding. So on behalf of the officer
37. 00:07:48 group, we would like to extend our sincere condolences to Theresa's family and to say that she'll
38. 00:07:53 literally be forgotten. Thank you. Councillor Coulter. Thank you, Chair. I'd just like to say that she's going to be sorely missed.
39. 00:08:05 I have known Theresa for over 10 years, personally, and in her different roles, and as her chair of this
40. 00:08:14 committee for quite a few years, she's always 150% committed to everything that she did. And I'll leave it at that,
41. 00:08:25 because I'll get upset. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Linda Thomas. Thank you, Chair. I can only agree with
42. 00:08:38 what everybody said here, but on a personal note, I really got to know Theresa when I bumped into her at the
43. 00:08:46 cancer clinic at Rex and Mylar. Strangely enough, our appointments coincided for both the outpatient,
44. 00:09:00 not outpatients, but during our journey, and our treatments often coincided as well. And Theresa
45. 00:09:08 always jeeped me on and said, we're going to be good. We're going to beat this. Stay strong.
46. 00:09:14 And those are the words that I will remember now, and I have lost a very, very dear friend. Thank you.
47. 00:09:25 Okay. Councillor David Hughes. Thank you, Chair. As leader of the council, I'd just like to pay a
48. 00:09:31 great tribute to Theresa. Theresa was a really good councillor, good advocate for education, really
49. 00:09:39 looked at thinking of the things in a balanced sort of way, and she'll be greatly missed by this council.
50. 00:09:44 Thank you. Thank you very much. Is there anyone else that wishes to offer any,
51. 00:09:50 um, where Christine Jones? The chair, there's got a great theory, I can say, apart from
52. 00:09:59 Theresa was a beautiful lady inside and out. And she was such a good friend to us all.
53. 00:10:07 And as ladies on the labour group got very close, we used to go out for our lunches together and
54. 00:10:14 a little get togethers. We always keep in contact with each other to support each other. And we all
55. 00:10:21 become really good friends. And we value that friendship, don't we? And at times like this,
56. 00:10:26 you know, we need our friends and our extended family around us as well. So let this meeting be in support of
57. 00:10:37 Theresa today. Let's all be respectful as she was always respectful to everybody she came into contact
58. 00:10:44 with. I don't know anybody who did not like Theresa, because she was, as I say, beautiful inside and out.
59. 00:10:52 So God rest you, Theresa. I know you're here with us today and you'll be shouting down at us to get
60. 00:10:58 on with the business. So let's get on with the business. But thank you for everybody who's made
61. 00:11:04 those kind comments about our dear friend. Okay. Thank you very much. Um, I'm sure what has been said today
62. 00:11:15 will be of a great comfort to Theresa's friends and family on it. I think it goes to show how incredibly
63. 00:11:20 miss she'll be and how much of a contribution she made. Um, so if we can move to agenda item number one,
64. 00:11:28 apologies. Thank you, chair. Okay. I believe that Councillor Mackie. It's not an apology, chair. Um,
65. 00:12:13 it was, um, about the sequence of the agenda items. Would you be prepared to listen to this now,
66. 00:12:19 or shall I leave it to later? Uh, Councillor Mackie. Okay. Thank you. It's just that we've got
67. 00:12:25 school balances at item seven and then at item nine, we've got the risk register and the risk
68. 00:12:33 register to start school balances deteriorated further in 25, 26. I wondered if you would consider having
69. 00:12:41 those two, hearing those two items one after the other, rather than with another one in between,
70. 00:12:46 in view of the fact that there is a leaked issue. Thank you, chair. I think that's quite a sensible
71. 00:12:51 suggestion, Councillor Mackie. Uh, I've also just had a request just in regard with officer availability.
72. 00:12:58 Um, so if members are happy, if we can move that the annual performance report is moved to agenda item
73. 00:13:10 six. And also Councillor Mackie's suggestion, which was to have the corporate risk register and school balances
74. 00:13:20 in sequence. Um, so if we can move the joint archive project after the corporate risk register,
75. 00:13:29 I'm going to take the, uh, take the committee's lead on this. Have we got proposed? I assume Councillor Mackie
76. 00:13:38 was proposing that. Councillor Priest second. Can I take a vote, please? That's carried, yeah. That's carried.
77. 00:13:46 Just to let you know, we are expecting an external visitor online to support the archive report. So
78. 00:13:52 we just need to, it's fine because obviously we're never quite sure how long each item will take.
79. 00:13:57 Uh, we said we'd perhaps give them a, you know, five or 10 minute, uh, warning. So if we can, so can we could
80. 00:14:03 check, would you just now just run through the report order just so I'm clear which way, which world are we going in?
81. 00:14:10 Right. So if we, the annual performance report will be moved to agenda item six.
82. 00:14:17 Uh, and then school balances, the corporate risk register will be moved from nine to eight.
83. 00:14:28 Yeah.
84. 00:14:30 Yeah.
85. 00:14:40 So yeah, we've got, um, annual performance report will now be agenda item number six.
86. 00:14:45 Um, Estin report on education and youth services will number seven. Then we've got the school balances,
87. 00:14:52 which will now be number eight. Number nine will be the corporate risk register because that will
88. 00:14:57 follow the school balances and then the denver should influence your joint archive project.
89. 00:15:01 Yeah. Yeah.
90. 00:15:01 Yeah. Just check with Councillor Mackie. Was that the intention?
91. 00:15:06 Thank you very much.
92. 00:15:07 Yeah. I, I, I think that's a very wise suggestion.
93. 00:15:14 Um, Councillor Richard Lloyd.
94. 00:15:16 Thank you chair. Thanks. Uh, my audio went off briefly, so I don't know whether I've missed apologies.
95. 00:15:21 Uh, but I just wanted to say that, uh, I'll have to leave the meeting at half past four to pick my
96. 00:15:25 grandson up. Um, can I just echo some of the lovely tributes paid to Teresa while I'm speaking
97. 00:15:30 and chair, you're right. It's a very sad day. Thank you. Okay. So if we now move on to agenda item number two,
98. 00:15:46 declarations of interest, including whipping decorations to receive any decorations of interest,
99. 00:15:51 advise members accordingly. Nope. Nope.
100. 00:15:56 There's been nobody room and nobody online. And if we move now to agenda item number three,
101. 00:16:03 the minutes to confirm as a true record, the minutes, the meeting held on the 2nd of July,
102. 00:16:07 joint meeting and the 17th of July. So if we can move first to the minutes on the 2nd of July, first page.
103. 00:16:20 Councillor Mackie.
104. 00:16:21 Sorry, chair, moving the minutes.
105. 00:16:24 Oh, right. You're moving. Uh, okay. So first page, second page, third page, fourth page. So we've got
106. 00:16:39 Councillor Mackie moving them. Do we have a seconder? Councillor McEwen. So all those in favour of the
107. 00:16:44 minutes of the 2nd of July being the correct record. That's carried. And now if we move on to the minutes
108. 00:16:51 of the 17th of July, um, if we go through page one of those minutes, page two, page three, page four,
109. 00:17:10 page five, do we have a mover? Councillor McEwen. Seconder. Councillor Mackie. All those in favour?
110. 00:17:20 Those, okay, chair. Okay. Thank you very much. Uh, Wendy.
111. 00:17:32 Yeah. Sorry. I'm not sure if this is the most appropriate, um, moment, um, to make this comment,
112. 00:17:38 but it's a comment about the meeting last, uh, Friday. Is it appropriate at this point to make a
113. 00:17:47 comment there? No. Um, I'd probably say not as there's no reference to that meeting on, on the agenda.
114. 00:18:00 Is, is there a reference to, to that meeting? The agenda. Those minutes aren't on the agenda and I
115. 00:18:08 would assume would be covered at the next meeting. Yeah. At the next meeting. Okay. Thank you for that.
116. 00:18:21 Urgent matters agreed by the chair. There is none. And if we move on to agenda item number five,
117. 00:18:27 forward work programme and action tracking. Bring Kerry in there. Thank you very much, chair.
118. 00:18:31 Um, members will see the current forward work programme shown on page 19 of the agenda. Um, you will see
119. 00:18:41 that we have a very busy forward work programme for this committee. Um, the one change that has been made
120. 00:18:48 to the, um, forward work programme since, um, our last meeting in July is the theatre clearing annual
121. 00:18:57 update report, which, um, has been moved from, uh, the next meeting in October to January. And there was a
122. 00:19:04 request for this to come in December, but, um, we already have quite a lot of items. Um, so apologies
123. 00:19:11 that this is coming in January, but that is because we just couldn't fit them in before, um, before then,
124. 00:19:17 given the, uh, number of items we've got listed to come to our committee. Um, so that's been,
125. 00:19:22 that's the only change that's been made since, um, the forward work programme was last presented to you.
126. 00:19:27 Um, moving on to the action tracking, you will see that, um, the majority of the actions, um, are completed.
127. 00:19:39 Um, there, um, we had the, the all member briefing was held on the 3rd of September, um, on the school
128. 00:19:46 organisational code. Um, and I do have, um, uh, some information on, uh, rural schools, uh, briefing notes
129. 00:19:54 that I believe was a request that came out of that. I will circulate that to the committee. I have been
130. 00:19:58 provided that by, by Jenny Williams. Um, and, uh, so I've got no, no further.
131. 00:20:06 questions or comments chair councillor priest then council lister thank you chair um just going on the
132. 00:20:12 items to be scheduled we've actually had outstanding ones on there uh was the update
133. 00:20:19 on the school parking has not been allocated and we've been waiting for the holiday hunger
134. 00:20:26 update to be sent to us we're now in a situation where the funding has now stopped
135. 00:20:31 and it was we were supposed to have gone into the next stage um that was proposed so we're now looking
136. 00:20:39 that uh there is no funding now towards half term in october there's none at christmas there's not in
137. 00:20:47 february and nothing for the summer holidays next year or easter so we're at a matter of urgency
138. 00:20:55 now for the holiday hunger one to be put onto the agenda but also the school parking nothing has
139. 00:21:03 been done since december 26 um we could do with an update i know i can see on here it was submitted to
140. 00:21:11 environmental um an economic committee but nothing has actually come back to this committee thank you
141. 00:21:18 chair thank you um just on those two items in terms of the holiday hunger um i was asked to move that
142. 00:21:26 because um it's there will be a report coming to this committee but it'll be after the working group
143. 00:21:32 has met and i believe uh work is ongoing on getting that working group back to meeting and getting some
144. 00:21:39 dates but i can i can get some more information on that that's fine in terms of the school parking the
145. 00:21:45 report is due to be presented to the environment committee in december it's it's coming up this
146. 00:21:50 this december um and because of the way that the meeting dates are set it was decided that it would go
147. 00:21:57 to the environment committee but we would be invited as members of education scrutiny committee as we have
148. 00:22:02 been in the past we will be invited for that item um alone so that members of both committee get the
149. 00:22:08 update thank you so lister the earth chair um yeah my comments um i know will be picked up in a later
150. 00:22:18 agenda item but um esten found that scrutiny wasn't effective and i think the forward work program has a
151. 00:22:24 lot a lot to do with that and that we need to look at what goes in the forward work program that will
152. 00:22:30 address the comments made by um by esten about how effectively we scrutinize the portfolio um so i was
153. 00:22:37 wondering whether the when the pi app is um formed i think it's due november end of november whether that
154. 00:22:44 could be brought to the next committee meeting um so that we can then look at what's in the pi app and
155. 00:22:51 populate the forward work program based on those priorities to help us look at um at what yeah crack
156. 00:22:59 really um and scrutinize what goes um the actions taken from the pi app um safeguarding was
157. 00:23:07 mentioned as as recommendation one um so i think that needs to come to the committee fairly urgently um
158. 00:23:14 being how serious you know safeguarding is and i was also wondering and it's more of an action
159. 00:23:20 tracking really than forward work program whether the um lead sias can have more input into scrutiny
160. 00:23:26 um there was a lot of talk in the esten inspection about teaching and learning and um i think that's
161. 00:23:33 probably what we talk about least in this committee so if possible could we have more involvement from
162. 00:23:38 the sias who are in the schools um and and collecting the data on teaching and learning that can inform
163. 00:23:44 what we we do next thank you yeah thank you very much council lister okay so sorry thank you another item i
164. 00:24:01 wondered if we we could have on the forward work program is to do with spare places in schools um
165. 00:24:09 we're hearing all of we're hearing about spare places all the time at the moment with with almost
166. 00:24:14 everything we do and and i thought it would be good if we could actually uh understand exactly
167. 00:24:21 what the spare place situation was i believe the chief officer wants to come in
168. 00:24:27 uh yes the dale council mackie um people popular uh the pupil population analysis report is scheduled
169. 00:24:40 for the 28th of january meeting that is a report for you uh with a detailed overview of pupil tomography
170. 00:24:47 spare places so it is actually on the forward work program so it looks like that's already coupled
171. 00:24:54 uh any further comments on the forward work program and action tracking officer uh dale could
172. 00:25:09 i'd like to thank council allister for her constructive comments in terms of how we do make the space on
173. 00:25:13 the forward work program to ensure that there is high levels of scrutiny by this committee for the
174. 00:25:18 development of the post inspection action plan and then its rollout um so as part of that report
175. 00:25:23 uh later on the agenda you will see there is a suggestion that we bring a termly report to scrutiny
176. 00:25:29 um you know for their consideration um so hopefully that you know that can be discussed later on in
177. 00:25:34 the agenda um i recognize your comments about you know who which officers you want to the committee
178. 00:25:39 you'll appreciate you know that that is also part of the work that i do as chief officer in identifying
179. 00:25:45 who the right officers are uh to be present at the meeting um and first and foremost that would the
180. 00:25:50 representative would be the school improvement manager the sort of the senior manager for school
181. 00:25:54 improvement but if we feel it is appropriate as well for the contribution from other officers as you
182. 00:25:59 know we do then of course we will we will take that uh we will take that feedback from you so
183. 00:26:03 dale canpower you thank you very much in that case without any further comments um we got we've got
184. 00:26:14 three recommendations the committee considers the draft forward work program and approve amend as necessary
185. 00:26:20 two that the facilitator in constitution with the chair in consultation with the chair of the committee be
186. 00:26:25 authorized to vary the forward work program between meetings as the need arises that the committee
187. 00:26:31 notes the progress be made in completing the outstanding actions we got the proposal council mckeown
188. 00:26:38 seconder council lister all those in favor that's carried so with the agreement of the committee we've
189. 00:26:56 had a bit of a change of the agenda order so now we're going to move on to the annual performance report
190. 00:27:04 25 26 and i believe that the chief executive is presenting yes wrong place wrong time isn't it really
191. 00:27:14 i don't usually sit in these committees but i will present this report um to you it's um i've already
192. 00:27:21 presented it into corporate resource over insecurity committee the relevant points of this committee are
193. 00:27:26 the education elements within the performance reports of the education committee
194. 00:27:30 um so essentially this is a performance report an annual performance report for 25 26 it's wide ranging
195. 00:27:39 as you can see it covers a number of areas um and a number of portfolios but as i've pointed out
196. 00:27:47 um the ones you need to focus on are the education uh portfolio um because if if you don't you'll be
197. 00:27:54 here quite a long time going through everything else in the report um so as i've noted with that it's
198. 00:28:01 split into a number of sections you've got um positive uh activity that's being undertaken by
199. 00:28:07 the council later on in the report it'll little it'll um identify areas of improvement and then you've got
200. 00:28:15 some uh sound bites around budget social value risk management annual governance statement these are all
201. 00:28:22 brought together to give you a more rounded view of the uh overall performance of the council uh and
202. 00:28:28 in real in relation to those particular points you've also got in their performance uh panel performance
203. 00:28:34 assessment and regulatory are audit items as well that also add to that rounded picture um chair if it
204. 00:28:42 uh if it's okay with you i'll stop at that point um the uh chief officer education and her team may
205. 00:28:50 want to take you through some of the certain aspects of the report and then i'm sure um the
206. 00:28:55 scrutiny will wish to ask a number of questions as well thank you okay then thank you very much if
207. 00:29:00 i can ask the chief officer and then any other officers uh to come forward yeah deal today you
208. 00:29:07 know i appreciate we've got a long agenda today so i'm not i'm not going to read out so the education
209. 00:29:12 and youth section in terms of some of the highlights over the 25 26 municipal year are on
210. 00:29:18 pages 154 to 155 and what we've tried to do is to reflect some commentary across all of our services
211. 00:29:25 um within the portfolio so um obviously the focus really for the school improvement service was
212. 00:29:32 managing the transition from where the previous regional school improvement body into developing our
213. 00:29:37 own school improvement service so that that was a major piece of work during that particular year
214. 00:29:42 and what the report recognizes is that you know that's been very well received by our head
215. 00:29:46 teachers they were integral part of the development of the model and their feedback to us is that they
216. 00:29:51 they feel that service is settling well and building excellent relationships with them as the leaders
217. 00:29:56 of teachers and teaching and learning you know across the authority obviously it's still very early days
218. 00:30:02 you know there's still more to do in terms of the development of that service and its integration into
219. 00:30:06 the wider portfolio uh but in terms of the progress major in the first year i think you know we we
220. 00:30:11 pretty much got to where we anticipated we would get to within 12 months it has been complicated by
221. 00:30:18 the fact that welsh government had also made some wider changes in terms of the delivery of key aspects
222. 00:30:23 of professional learning they established a new national body called dusky and dusky were given
223. 00:30:28 the remit for a number of key elements of professional learning that traditionally had been delivered through
224. 00:30:33 the regional consortia and you know that was particularly around um the leadership development program for uh for leaders across schools
225. 00:30:41 and also aligning to the national priorities set by welsh government in terms of literacy numeracy and attendance
226. 00:30:48 it is fair to say and i think dusky would say for themselves we've had regular engagement with dr
227. 00:30:52 gwen llian davis lansdown davis the chief executive is that dusky has taken longer to establish itself
228. 00:30:59 than perhaps we might have anticipated um obviously you know they're setting up a brand new organization from scratch
229. 00:31:05 uh you know clarifying israel's responsibilities making sure they were appropriately uh populated in terms of
230. 00:31:10 staffing resources and then obviously engaging with bodies across wales including local authorities
231. 00:31:16 with estin with welsh government to be really clear on what their remit would be
232. 00:31:20 the upshot of that is that they did not develop their start the delivery of their professional learning program
233. 00:31:26 as quickly as we would anticipated they didn't really deliver anything in the first 12 months
234. 00:31:31 which did leave a bit of a gap because we were anticipating that dusky would lead on certain aspects of professional learning
235. 00:31:36 and we would develop things that were more localized so just to make members aware just you know they
236. 00:31:41 are developing they are making it clearer now what the programs that they are going to be offering
237. 00:31:46 uh but it did create a bit of a gap for professional learning uh which we've done our best to try and
238. 00:31:51 plug where we can locally but members need to be aware that a significant proportion of the funding that
239. 00:31:56 came to the local authority or the regional consortium previously that was sort of pulled back to support the
240. 00:32:01 development of dusky so we didn't have the financial resources to plug that gap but you know we move
241. 00:32:06 forward positively and it's really important that there is that alignment at both a national level
242. 00:32:10 on the local level so that we're not missing anything out in terms of professional learning but
243. 00:32:14 neither are we duplicating so that work is ongoing and we continue continue to engage with them
244. 00:32:21 members will know that over you know the last 12 months we have brought a number of reports to you
245. 00:32:25 around our youth service and our and and the play team as well within that youth service
246. 00:32:30 who continue to do excellent work in supporting our children and young people um you know in school
247. 00:32:36 but actually outside of school hours as well so there are a number of things referenced there in
248. 00:32:41 terms of their their work that they do with schools and our wider statutory partners and third sector
249. 00:32:46 organizations to really enrich um the opportunities for our young people and i'm sure members will know that
250. 00:32:52 is very much reflected in the estern report of youth services here at flinch county council
251. 00:32:56 um again you will know that our priority over the last 12 months has been really to strengthen pupil
252. 00:33:03 voice and the development of young flint share and you've been extremely supportive of that proposal
253. 00:33:08 and you know we are delighted how well embedded young flint share is now you know within mechanisms
254. 00:33:12 within the council and the opportunity for us to work firsthand with representative young people
255. 00:33:17 across all of our schools and our and our youth services the portfolio remains committed to
256. 00:33:24 supporting vulnerable learners and the ongoing focus on trauma-informed practice you know is is a real
257. 00:33:29 theme through everything that we do and we were absolutely delighted that us called plas darwin our
258. 00:33:33 pupil referral unit was the first crew in wales to receive the accreditation um from trauma-informed
259. 00:33:39 uh schools uh and i think that is a real first and something you know as a council we should be really
260. 00:33:44 proud of uh us called plas dadwin is is really leading the way in this in this regard and again
261. 00:33:50 as you will be aware um the 25 26 was a very busy year in terms of um our capital improvement program
262. 00:33:58 uh jenny sitting to my right here you know on the delivery of two you know major school projects
263. 00:34:03 successfully you know on time within budget um you know i think again is something that this council
264. 00:34:09 should be very proud of however we do know that there are still important things that we need to
265. 00:34:14 improve uh for our learners and our young people so on on my page i've got 171 sorry colleagues i can't
266. 00:34:21 work from the screen today you'll notice i'm wearing my my glasses um i'm having to work for a paper
267. 00:34:25 version so for me it's page 171 of my pack and we have identified that there are some key things that
268. 00:34:32 we still need to focus on and you will be very familiar with these we need to continue to reduce the
269. 00:34:38 number of pupils who are who are being excluded from school both on a fixed term and a permanent
270. 00:34:44 basis that is absolutely key young people need to be in school to access their education so we continue
271. 00:34:50 to develop uh the mechanisms by which we support schools to engage with these pupils early to
272. 00:34:55 intervene as quickly as possible and hopefully help them to maintain their place in school but you
273. 00:35:00 know the challenges that young people continue to face have been subject of many a long discussion
274. 00:35:05 within this committee but it's something we are obviously very focused on still again attendance
275. 00:35:12 levels yes we can see that there are small steps of improvement but we like many local authorities now
276. 00:35:17 have still not got back to the levels of attendance that we had pre-pandemic so again that is a priority
277. 00:35:24 focus for the portfolio because if children aren't in school they can't be taught they can't progress they
278. 00:35:29 can't succeed so attendance key priority and again from reports that we've shared with you in the past you
279. 00:35:36 will know that we are also particularly focusing on perhaps two cohorts of lens we obviously every learner
280. 00:35:42 in flintcher is important but we recognize that there are two particular cohorts who again perhaps need some
281. 00:35:48 further support and intervention first and foremost those children who are eligible for free school meals
282. 00:35:54 members are very familiar with the research that and the outcome data that demonstrates that children from
283. 00:36:02 poorer economic backgrounds generally do not perform as well as their peers in in more beneficial economic
284. 00:36:09 circumstances shall we say so you know trying to close that gap in terms of the performance of this
285. 00:36:16 cohort of pupils with their peers is really important but particularly at the other end of the spectrum we also
286. 00:36:23 know that we have many very able learners in flintshire and our data is telling us that we are not getting
287. 00:36:28 as many of those young people to achieve a star and a and there's no reason why they shouldn't be so
288. 00:36:33 again that is a real focus for us in supporting our secondary schools to really you know enable the
289. 00:36:39 achievement of those those learners who can really be pushed and stretched so hopefully you will
290. 00:36:44 recognize within the report that yes we are celebrating things that we do believe have been successful
291. 00:36:49 but we are very much focused on how we continue to improve those priorities that we've identified
292. 00:36:54 there for further improvement so i'm happy to take any questions dear well thank you very much uh chief
293. 00:37:00 officers any members of the cabinet or any other officers from the education department should come in
294. 00:37:06 okay uh thank you chair uh thank you again for the report i think this is the second time today that
295. 00:37:21 i've actually looked at this report because i would sit this morning um forgive me uh for saying it but
296. 00:37:30 for the amount of funding that we put into education it is a very small section on here which is actually
297. 00:37:37 for the education department um you know we've got a big amount of money that is spent on education
298. 00:37:45 but not an awful lot in the performance report um that's just that's just an observation looking at the
299. 00:37:54 performance i've got to agree with chief officer on everything that she said on the education outcomes
300. 00:38:02 what evidence shows that the educational outcomes for flinch of pupils improved during 25 26 and where did
301. 00:38:10 performance fall below target i have got other questions chair but i'll leave it at that so that
302. 00:38:15 we can go through in a logical order thank you chair okay chief officer um thank you for your
303. 00:38:22 question council priest we have presented information to you in previous reports during the year
304. 00:38:29 in terms of the learner outcome data so that has been that has been delivered to committee in a previous
305. 00:38:35 report so i actually don't have that in front of me now this report is a summary a high level summary of
306. 00:38:40 some of the key headlines really in terms of um all portfolios performance you know over the last
307. 00:38:46 municipal year so um i i don't have that information in front of me too and we had a quite a discussion
308. 00:38:51 about that if i recall when we presented the outcome uh the learner outcome report earlier this year
309. 00:38:59 absolutely priest thank you chair thank you for the answer um noted on here something that we have been uh is
310. 00:39:08 upgrading the actual schools and big projects etc that have been going on but our current school buildings
311. 00:39:16 are under quite a lot of pressure and school estate is under pressure and also as we know school budgets
312. 00:39:23 how is the council measuring whether our schools provide the safe inclusive and inspirational learning
313. 00:39:31 environments promised in this plan thank you chair thank you council aprice yep um jenny do you just want
314. 00:39:42 to mention about the regular processes we have in terms of assessing the uh quality and the safety of
315. 00:39:48 school buildings just perhaps to give back to give that reassurance to the committee in the first instance
316. 00:39:54 yeah it's quite um getting down to some granular detail around operational management that
317. 00:39:59 um all our schools are assessed under condition surveying through professional building
318. 00:40:15 through small amounts of corporate and through Welsh Government. So we prioritise our school
319. 00:40:21 estate, our existing school estate by looking at what condition issues are the most priority
320. 00:40:27 and then putting that funding that we have available to us to address those condition issues.
321. 00:40:35 Obviously we can't address everything at once because we don't have all funding to address
322. 00:40:38 all of our repairs and maintenance issues but where we have raised risks or where we have
323. 00:40:45 issues that are raised you know condition issues can deteriorate quicker than you know what
324. 00:40:49 comes through from surveying and we've got escalation points where schools can raise those concerns
325. 00:40:56 through us and we proactively manage with them any raised and red sort of risks around any
326. 00:41:03 condition matters or health and safety matters.
327. 00:41:05 Thank you, Jenny. That's really helpful. So I think your question also went into the realms
328. 00:41:11 of you know how do we know how our schools are performing? Am I right in my assessment of
329. 00:41:15 your question Councillor Priest? Sorry. It was more on the lines of inclusiveness and inspiring learning
330. 00:41:27 environments. So it's the inspiring, it's the actual rooms themselves. Thank you.
331. 00:41:32 So you'll be aware of the significant number of school buildings, new school buildings that we've
332. 00:41:39 delivered over the last 10 years. I believe you visited you know some of them yourself. You referenced
333. 00:41:43 Argoid School, you know one of our most amazing schools that we've built you know within the last
334. 00:41:49 couple of years. So that and that's our ambition that we are able to maximise funding from Welsh
335. 00:41:54 government through the Sustainable Learning Communities programme to keep investing obviously
336. 00:41:58 in in our school estate to create as you say those truly inspirational learning spaces for school and I
337. 00:42:05 think you know look at you look at the schools that we've built you know what's called Chrysati if
338. 00:42:09 members have visited there. Some that we've done you know in in the recent past you know those buildings
339. 00:42:14 really do support quality teaching and learning and they do inspire the feedback we get is that
340. 00:42:19 they really inspire the staff that work within them and of course you know it is the day-to-day
341. 00:42:23 management responsibility of the head teacher the governors and the staff obviously to then
342. 00:42:27 manage that environment to curate that environment to create learning spaces inside and out that
343. 00:42:32 obviously supports the delivery of the curriculum you know and inspires their learners. So as Jenny says you know we
344. 00:42:38 we use the resources that we have as effectively as we can and we support our teachers in terms of
345. 00:42:45 professional development opportunities as well as we mentioned earlier to you know create those
346. 00:42:50 environments that will inspire children to learn and to engage them and obviously but through the work
347. 00:42:56 that we do through our school improvement team that regular engagement with schools, school leaders, school
348. 00:43:02 staff you know they don't just sit in the head teacher's office they're walking out and around the building
349. 00:43:07 engaging with learners themselves they can see for themselves you know if learners are engaged so
350. 00:43:12 that would obviously inform the input from their school improvement service team and obviously you
351. 00:43:18 know Aston as well will take a view when they visit a school and they write an inspection report around
352. 00:43:22 a school so I hope that answers your question council please have you just thought of something else Jen?
353. 00:43:27 Thanks Claire and just to reassure members that we really look at creative ways of trying to improve all of our
354. 00:43:37 students and school sites so we utilize multiple different funding streams to do that whether it be
355. 00:43:43 through and sports wales grants or football Cymru grants we do a wide range of different things to try and
356. 00:43:52 boost our school environments and provide funding where we can okay thank you okay Councillor Preece thank you
357. 00:44:03 My main bit is how is it being measured on that uh but I'll continue to the next question because I think
358. 00:44:09 it will go into it anyway under the financial pressures how is the council ensuring that
359. 00:44:12 financial pressures on education and individual schools are not impacting negatively
360. 00:44:19 on people's outcomes and what evidence can be provided to demonstrate this thank you
361. 00:44:27 Thank you Arl, we've got a report today haven't we that clearly articulates
362. 00:44:33 challenges of the school deficit budgetary position. You have an Estin report that clearly
363. 00:44:38 articulates the risks around the council's school budgetary position. Again, you know,
364. 00:44:46 what can I say to you in response to that? I think we work extremely hard with our schools,
365. 00:44:51 you know, through our finance team and through our HR colleagues, through our school improvement
366. 00:44:55 service to help mitigate those risks as best we can to support our teachers.
367. 00:45:03 Of course, then that will be reported in, well, as you know, there's very little outcome data at the
368. 00:45:12 moment. The new Welsh Government obviously is moving on a different agenda with that. So, you know,
369. 00:45:18 that is for schools to look at through their own self-evaluation processes, how their learners are
370. 00:45:23 achieving and how they will then make improvements through their improvement priorities. Obviously,
371. 00:45:28 at secondary level, we do have the national published data in terms of GCSE and A-level outcomes,
372. 00:45:34 again, which schools use to inform their own evaluation and improvement planning. So,
373. 00:45:38 I would say it's a collective effort, but there's not a simple answer to your question,
374. 00:45:42 because as you will see from that school balances report, you know, the reduction of staff,
375. 00:45:47 pastoral staff, teaching staff, you know, is, we can't say it isn't having an impact.
376. 00:45:53 You know, it obviously is. You know, the challenges being presented in terms of the level of children
377. 00:45:59 who need and absolutely deserve that support if they have an additional learning need.
378. 00:46:04 You know, and the options issues that we've talked about in this committee before, and,
379. 00:46:09 you know, how, you know, some of our secondary schools are having to make difficult decisions
380. 00:46:13 around the range of options that they can offer for learners, you know, based on the size of the
381. 00:46:18 cohort to make it financially viable. So, you know, the outcome, the outcome from that will be,
382. 00:46:25 obviously, mostly, I would suggest to you, either in a secondary school's performance data,
383. 00:46:31 and it will be through inspection reports, as well as, you know, the main sort of public vehicle
384. 00:46:35 for communicating, you know, the, you know, the performance of that school. It is a challenge,
385. 00:46:42 councillor Priests, as I'm sure we all know, but we're all working very hard to try and mitigate
386. 00:46:47 the challenges that we face on the experiences of learners in our schools. You know, and the vast
387. 00:46:52 majority of our schools get very, very positive Esten outcome reports.
388. 00:46:57 Just one more point, Chair. On the recommendation, I think that the wording noted needs to be removed,
389. 00:47:04 because it is something that Esten have picked up, that items being brought to a screening committee
390. 00:47:11 should be there for a purpose, not just to be noted. So, I'll leave it to the rest of the
391. 00:47:18 committee members to change the wordings on that, but it, noting should be removed
392. 00:47:23 from the recommendation. Thank you, Chair.
393. 00:47:26 Thank you very much, councillor Priests.
394. 00:47:29 Lister.
395. 00:47:31 Yeah, I'm looking at page 154, and I'm looking at the first paragraph about school improvement.
396. 00:47:37 The council has successfully implemented a unified and coherent school improvement model, providing
397. 00:47:44 consistent and targeted support to schools. And it is a question that I genuinely want to
398. 00:47:50 hear an answer to. I was just wondering how that statement was derived, like what evidence says that
399. 00:47:56 the model has been successful, just in light of the fact that half of Flincher secondary schools
400. 00:48:06 have had some kind of follow-up, have to go into some kind of Esten follow-up.
401. 00:48:11 It just, that sentence doesn't sit well with me. However, I am very aware that you've changed from where
402. 00:48:19 you're doing now, and this might be having an impact. So, I was just wondering if you could explain that in more detail.
403. 00:48:25 Thank you.
404. 00:48:26 Councilor Lister, you know your answer.
405. 00:48:27 Sorry, Chair, can I?
406. 00:48:28 Yeah.
407. 00:48:28 So, you know, council is just, you know, perfectly right to ask that question. And as you've identified,
408. 00:48:35 the schools that have, that have been placed in follow-up, you know, since 2022, you know,
409. 00:48:42 a proportion of that time, a significant proportion of that time, was when the school regional,
410. 00:48:47 the regional school improvement service was in place. The articulation of the successful transfer
411. 00:48:54 was that actually, as a local authority, we managed a very, very tricky process that was imposed on us
412. 00:49:00 by a national change of government. We had to move from a regional service where the six local authorities,
413. 00:49:07 you know, were, you know, part of an organisation, but actually didn't have really direct control
414. 00:49:13 over that organisation, as in GWER, obviously, but we worked in very close partnership with them,
415. 00:49:18 but we were not the employers. GWER was a host authority, and GWER was a regional independent body.
416. 00:49:26 And I can say to you that the challenge of transitioning staff from one employer and model to another
417. 00:49:35 was extremely challenging, extremely emotive, and needed to be handled with a great deal of sensitivity,
418. 00:49:41 which I do genuinely believe we did do here in Flintshire. We had to undertake numerous meetings,
419. 00:49:48 you know, at a regional level and an individual, you know, level in terms of staff consultations.
420. 00:49:53 So I think the proof of the pudding for me, in a number of areas, through the model of assigning
421. 00:50:02 previously employed GWER staff to local authorities, I am really confident that we got really high quality
422. 00:50:08 staff to join our school improvement service here in Flintshire, and they wanted to come and work in
423. 00:50:13 Flintshire, which was, I think, a real endorsement. I think the second thing is that, you know, we were
424. 00:50:19 able to manage that tricky employment process without many, any major issues. It went very smoothly, and we
425. 00:50:26 were able to move people from one contract to another. And I think the most important area is that,
426. 00:50:35 and again, this came down, I think, to our strategy of involving our head teachers in the process,
427. 00:50:40 is that when the new service started on the 1st of June, and we sort of moved through that summer
428. 00:50:45 term of 2025, the feedback from our head teachers was that that process had been seamless. They did not
429. 00:50:52 feel that they had had the level of engagement with their school improvement advisor, and some did have
430. 00:50:59 to have new ones just by virtue of the fact that we were dealing with different people. But even then,
431. 00:51:03 they felt that that process had been really, and did not interrupt the level of engagement with them as
432. 00:51:10 schools, you know, obviously benefiting from that support. So I hope that part, you know, that does
433. 00:51:16 sort of partly answer your question. But, you know, there does have to be a recognition that, you know,
434. 00:51:20 some of the schools that were placed in statutory category, that was, that was, you know, in 2023,
435. 00:51:25 2024, before our local service came into being. Obviously, you know, two further schools placed in
436. 00:51:32 statutory category, you know, in May of 2025. But as you will know, a school that finds itself in that
437. 00:51:41 statutory category will have been experiencing challenges for some time. It wasn't to say that
438. 00:51:45 we weren't trying to address those issues, we were. But as you say, that the progress hadn't been, you
439. 00:51:50 know, as, as, as hope quickly as we would have hoped. And again, you know, there's a number of
440. 00:51:55 reasons for that, some of which are obviously referenced in the Estin report. So in terms of that
441. 00:52:00 transition, I would say, you know, we can say successful. However, we know, and we would have
442. 00:52:06 expected some of the comments in the Estin report, because we know there are still things to do in terms of
443. 00:52:13 embedding the School Improvement Service within the wider portfolio. And I'm sure we'll come on to
444. 00:52:18 talk about these things later. But again, how we integrate the use of data across the portfolio.
445. 00:52:26 And it's a council issue as well, it's not just a portfolio issue to enable all officers to have
446. 00:52:30 the information they need to support them in their roles, you know, in a timely fashion. So again,
447. 00:52:35 you know, we know that there is a journey to travel there. But I hope that does give you some
448. 00:52:39 assurance, councillor Lister. Yeah, I think it does give me some assurance. Thank you very much. And
449. 00:52:47 obviously, the statement here this year relates to the process of the change. And I think probably what
450. 00:52:53 I want to know is next year for you to be able to say that the school improvement is successful,
451. 00:53:00 what do we need? How do we know? Yeah, that school improvement is actually happening and that the
452. 00:53:06 schools and the teaching and learning is improving and the outcomes of children are improving,
453. 00:53:10 to be able to make that statement next year, where it doesn't just relate to a process of change,
454. 00:53:15 it relates to actual being in the classrooms and the outcomes of, you know, what what children are
455. 00:53:20 experiencing is better. That's how I read school improvement rather than as a process.
456. 00:53:25 It's an absolutely fair comment. And I think this as well goes back to conversations I think we were
457. 00:53:31 having in Council on Tuesday in terms of what are the measures that go in the Council plan in the first
458. 00:53:37 place. If we get the if we get the you know the targets and the measures and the Council plan right
459. 00:53:42 then and they are the right things, then we are able to report on them, you know, accurately. So
460. 00:53:47 that's definitely work, work in progress, I think across the Council, not just for us as a portfolio.
461. 00:53:52 But certainly, yes, as we move forward, we need to incorporate the recommendations from the Eston
462. 00:53:57 report now, you know, into the Council plan, to make sure that there are very specific things there
463. 00:54:03 against which you can measure performance. But obviously, things like people outcomes will be key,
464. 00:54:09 you know, that the landscape is shifting in terms of the amount of data that will be available going
465. 00:54:14 forward. Eston outcomes will be key. And then, you know, overviews of the direct work of officers in
466. 00:54:21 terms of our schools cause and concern process, are those numbers of schools being identified as
467. 00:54:26 being going down? Are we able to see schools being moved out of, you know, those that are currently
468. 00:54:32 in category? Are we moving them out, you know, quickly enough? So, yes, getting those targets will
469. 00:54:37 be absolutely key. Thank you very much, Chief Officer, if I can bring the Chief Exec, and then after
470. 00:54:42 that, Councillor Mackey. Yeah, thanks. And just just to build on the conversation from the Chief Officer
471. 00:54:50 Education. For me, as the Chief Executive, it's the so what bit of the conversation, you know, we've done all
472. 00:54:58 this work, so what, what's the output? That's a really important bit for us all, I think, really. That team,
473. 00:55:04 as Claire noted, it transferred across unbelievably seamlessly. That it was a very, very difficult
474. 00:55:16 piece of work, really challenging for the Council, extremely challenging for the staff that came across
475. 00:55:21 in terms of that staff transfer. They've embedded really well in the service, and there's a high
476. 00:55:27 degree of confidence from all the head teachers and schools that the work they're doing is going to turn
477. 00:55:31 and be very positive in terms of the outcomes for the schools. So, I'm incredibly confident that the
478. 00:55:40 team we've got is a really, really good team, and I'm looking forward to hearing lots more positive
479. 00:55:47 commentary about what it's doing to turn around and assist and support schools in Flintshire.
480. 00:55:55 Okay, Councillor Mackey. Thank you, Chair. We're suffering from too many changes,
481. 00:56:06 changes. And changes may be accomplished well, but they have still deflected senior managers from their
482. 00:56:16 other roles. We have, we're just seeing one change after another. I mean, I could start with the
483. 00:56:26 curriculum for Wales. All the additional change that that's created. We've already heard that
484. 00:56:37 professional learning has changed a new organisation which takes time to set up. We know that GWER took at
485. 00:56:47 least a year to get going before it was even crawling, let alone doing the job. And it's all about
486. 00:56:57 constant change that's being inflicted. And what we need is time to settle down and to understand what we're doing.
487. 00:57:06 At the moment, the information we're getting on performance is the interim measure. Well, to me, that means it'll start
488. 00:57:17 about now, and it'll end at some point. In other words, that ability to follow the trend will not be there.
489. 00:57:27 And that's so important. And that's the difficulty of constant change. It's the problem of following the trend and knowing what the trend is and knowing exactly what we can aim for.
490. 00:57:44 And that's the point. We should have targets that we can get hold of that mean something. We've all done planning, haven't we? Come on. We've all set targets. We've all done that in our work. A target has to be tangible and achievable. And unless it's tangible, how do you know it's achievable?
491. 00:58:08 And that's the problem. Because we're having so much change, we're not as able to set our targets as we should be.
492. 00:58:21 But I feel that the answer to the two questions that I've just been listening to all rests on the actual targets that we're aiming for so that we can make, so have something that's tangible so that we all know right the way across the board.
493. 00:58:39 I remember my wife telling people, go and ask people for this, go and ask them for that, to the group of people she managed. And when they came back the next week, I asked one person, I asked 10 people. She's forgotten to tell them how many to ask.
494. 00:58:57 And that's the problem. If we don't have a tangible target, how do the people within the organisation at the various levels know where they sit within that target? And that's what I'm concerned about, that we have drift because we don't have tangible set targets.
495. 00:59:20 Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Mackie, because you've just described the landscape we've been working in for how many years?
496. 00:59:32 Every year it changes. You know, how many times have we had the conversation, well, you can't compare apples with pears?
497. 00:59:38 Because, and then they took the data. Anyway, so I can assure you that as part of our post-inspection action planning, we are looking very critically,
498. 00:59:46 I've got, I've got, I've got a working document in front of me, of all of the data sets.
499. 00:59:53 And the team are going through them at the moment. We are going through all the data sets of all the information that we think we hold as a portfolio, whether that's around, you know,
500. 01:00:04 we hold as a portfolio, whether that's around indicators in terms of learner outcomes, whether
501. 01:00:07 it's about school inspection profiles, whether it's about the level of engagement in our adult
502. 01:00:12 community learning provision, if it's in our youth services, obviously the things you'd expect,
503. 01:00:17 attendance, exclusion, outer county provision, post-16 provision. There are literally tens and
504. 01:00:24 tens and tens of different data sets. What we're trying to do is to filter those down to say to you
505. 01:00:31 as part of our performance reporting on a terminally basis into scrutiny, what are the key indicators that
506. 01:00:38 you feel would enable you to monitor and scrutinize the work of the portfolio and we can all be
507. 01:00:44 consistent on it. So that's what we're in the middle of doing. So I'm hoping that gives you some assurance
508. 01:00:50 Councillor Mackie, because I mean, we won't talk about the systems to manage that at the moment.
509. 01:00:55 That's another whole conversation, but we are absolutely looking at what are those key data sets
510. 01:01:01 that will enable us to set very specific targets for improvement and give you the opportunity
511. 01:01:09 to effectively monitor us. Thank you very much, Chief Officer. I think that was articulated and animated
512. 01:01:16 in the only way that, you know, we know from Councillor Mackie, and I think he made a very good point there.
513. 01:01:23 If I can bring in Councillor Liss.
514. 01:01:25 It was going back to the school improvement and the Chief Officer's comment about, sorry, the Chief Executive's comment
515. 01:01:34 about excellent people in the role. And I fully, like, agree with that. I've met Sarah in through committee,
516. 01:01:41 I've met some of the SIAs through my role as a governor. And I do think the team that you've got are fantastic.
517. 01:01:47 But people are only as good as the system and the process that they work in. And I think you've just alluded
518. 01:01:53 to that as well. And yeah, and I guess that needs, we need to look at that, don't we? We need to look at how
519. 01:02:02 the school improvement team work, how we get the data, they get the data, they need to be able to make those
520. 01:02:08 really reliable judgments on the schools. And to ensure that improvement is happening and to know
521. 01:02:14 that improvement is happening, not just to think, oh, they tell me, you know, it's going really well
522. 01:02:19 here. There's got to be, there's got to be a stronger system, hasn't there? And yeah, sorry, waffled.
523. 01:02:25 Okay. Any response?
524. 01:02:37 Oh, I think we really welcome the comments. I think, you know, the point is, we're on this journey together,
525. 01:02:42 aren't we? So yes, I'm looking forward to the forthcoming conversations.
526. 01:02:47 Sorry, in line of that. So it's the targets that the schools are agreeing with the, and I see their
527. 01:02:57 advisors and now the challenge concept seems to have gone, thank goodness, that it's the targets that
528. 01:03:04 those schools, how are those schools targets being achieved? That's what can be assembled that can come
529. 01:03:11 back to us. So that's the sort of thing I'm thinking about here, that it's the targets all the way down
530. 01:03:19 the, down the chain. And they come back to us to see that the top target is actually achieved.
531. 01:03:25 So as you know, and those of you that are governors, you know, that that process starts at school level,
532. 01:03:33 doesn't it? It is about how the school through its own evaluation processes, clearly identifies things
533. 01:03:39 that are working successfully. And again, what's the evidence for that? And where do they need to
534. 01:03:43 improve? And then they write their improvement plans with their targets in their success criteria,
535. 01:03:47 put the activity in and then measure to see whether it's done. So don't forget, we can't do schools jobs
536. 01:03:53 for them. That's not our role as a school improvement service. That is the responsibility of the head,
537. 01:03:58 the governors and all the staff within the school. Our job is to provide support and challenge,
538. 01:04:07 and challenge, where perhaps we feel the school isn't addressing something as well as it could,
539. 01:04:13 or as quickly as it could. Because you know, the role of the school improvement advisor is to really
540. 01:04:17 understand the context of the school to be very familiar with the school's improvement priorities and
541. 01:04:22 their self evaluation, to then say, well, actually, if that's going to be a priority for you,
542. 01:04:27 what resource have you got within your school to address that priority? Is there something
543. 01:04:31 additional you may need to draw down from the local authority team? Is it something that you're going
544. 01:04:36 to engage your staff in through one of the dusky learning programmes? So how as a school are you going
545. 01:04:40 to address that priority? And then our job is to make sure that schools are remaining on track in terms
546. 01:04:46 of their delivery, to provide, you know, advice, support, guidance, to signpost them potentially to other
547. 01:04:52 schools who may be also addressing that, and perhaps they can work together. We know we've got this big
548. 01:04:57 push, haven't we, for school to school collaboration. But then it's, you know, how does that then filter
549. 01:05:02 up? We are not going to sit, we would never do anything else as a council if we were to come and
550. 01:05:07 talk to you about every single school, every aspect of their plan. You know, you've got to trust,
551. 01:05:11 haven't you, that schools are working at that level. Our job then is to filter that up and say to
552. 01:05:16 you, well, actually, when we look at school improvement priorities across Flintshire, and we've done this,
553. 01:05:21 we have collated, you know, Sarah's collated all of the secondary school improvement plans, you know,
554. 01:05:26 and priorities. Actually, we've got consistent themes. Every school is focusing on reading,
555. 01:05:31 we've got a national year of reading. Yeah, so it's how we bring those up at that higher level. And then,
556. 01:05:37 actually, when we start, when the new programmes for literacy and numeracy become embedded, and again,
557. 01:05:42 that's not as quick as we would like, there will be a published national framework of expectations by age.
558. 01:05:49 So we would then be able to take the school's data and say, 90% of our schools, their learners are age
559. 01:05:57 appropriate. Or 70%, oh, only 70%, okay, so that means we've got a bit of a problem. What do we need to
560. 01:06:04 do about it? Do we need more professional learning, etc? So hopefully, you know, you understand how that
561. 01:06:10 then filters up through the system. But then it's what at the very highest level we're able to give you to
562. 01:06:14 enable you to support your function as the scrutiny committee. Okay, thank you. Is there anyone
563. 01:06:21 else that wishes to come in? Councillor Richard Lloyd? Yeah, thanks, Chair. On a different note,
564. 01:06:30 on page 156, just wanting to make a comment about the review of the Flincha Connects. We now have a
565. 01:06:38 one-day week on a Monday, Flincha Connects in Sotney, at the community centre. We've had people there.
566. 01:06:44 Excuse me. Councillor Lloyd, I think this has happened at a couple of other committees. At this committee,
567. 01:06:51 we're focusing on the education part of the annual performance report. It's just that it is in the
568. 01:06:59 performance report on page 156. The performance report covers the entirety of the council. In
569. 01:07:05 this scrutiny committee, we're here to talk about specifically around education and the portfolio.
570. 01:07:10 Okay, fair enough. But I'd just like to say we're very grateful for it. Thank you very much. Thanks.
571. 01:07:14 In the absence of any further comments or questions, I think we do need to amend the recommendation.
572. 01:07:26 So, recommendation one, committee to support the annual performance report from 2526
573. 01:07:33 and the performance achieved during the year. Are we happy with that? We've got a proposer,
574. 01:07:39 councilor, councilor Lister, councilor McEwen second. Can I have all those in favour? That looks like
575. 01:07:47 unanimous and it's carried. Right, just a quick one. I believe there is an issue regarding a future
576. 01:07:56 agenda item. I am proposing that we're going to have a break for five minutes because I need to seek some
577. 01:08:02 advice from the officers. So if we can come back in five minutes. Right, just a quick one. Okay, we all
578. 01:18:03 we all back. Right, we have a situation in regarding to agenda item number seven.
579. 01:18:12 The Estin report. I have been informed that a formal complaint has been raised in regard
580. 01:18:20 to the amended report. That that formal complaint is currently in the process of being considered.
581. 01:18:27 And I'm very, very concerned about the appropriateness of us discussing this item until that complaint
582. 01:18:35 has been resolved. Councilor McEwen. Are you moving to defer the item then, Chair? Because if you are,
583. 01:18:45 I will happily second that. Yeah. Unfortunately, councilor Lister, I'm not aware of the nature of the
584. 01:19:00 complaint. So I couldn't say it's this section. No, it would be helpful if we did, but I have not been
585. 01:19:09 provided significant details about the nature of the complaint and I have a lot of concerns about
586. 01:19:15 that fact. Okay. Chair, Ian here. Do you think Kerry could kindly unblock my video again, please?
587. 01:19:25 I can block that. Well done.
588. 01:19:30 I'm not happy. You're back, councilor. Thank you. Somebody press something.
589. 01:19:39 Yeah, I'm very concerned about the fact that a formal complaint has been raised, but in the nature
590. 01:19:48 of the amended report, I don't feel that it is appropriate that we discuss it today. That complaint
591. 01:19:54 needs to be considered by whoever. Yeah. And my strong advice is that we defer this item.
592. 01:20:00 for this item councillor priest uh thank you jack we're in a situation now that looking at our
593. 01:20:07 forward work plan yeah we have got an unbelievably full work plan coming forwards now i think if this
594. 01:20:15 is the case this agenda item must be discussed as soon as possible because it is not in the fairness
595. 01:20:23 of the staff who've been involved in the esten uh report and inspection because this is a process
596. 01:20:32 everything has to be done within a certain time frame so that an action plan can be put together
597. 01:20:38 etc and part of that is scrutiny yeah to give our input etc into that now there is no time scale that
598. 01:20:48 you've given us that this and the value of doing something now than doing it in four months time
599. 01:20:57 it loses its ability for the impact to go on and also lengthens the time scale of an action plan
600. 01:21:04 to be put in place so we're in a situation now i think if it is going to be deferred i think we
601. 01:21:11 need it to be a special meeting because there isn't any sufficient time within the meetings that we have
602. 01:21:18 planned until march thank you thank you council priest if i can just um yes okay so right just to assure
603. 01:21:29 members of the committee the portfolio team will not be stopping their efforts in terms of developing
604. 01:21:33 the post inspection action plan you know that that is very much work in progress um so obviously i can't
605. 01:21:41 comment on the situation that we're in at the moment um but i again i recognize what you're saying uh
606. 01:21:47 council priest about the fullness of the agenda so i don't i would have no objection and the officer
607. 01:21:51 team would have no objection that perhaps if if once this matter is com is resolved and i'm sure i
608. 01:21:57 mean every complaints procedure has a specified time scale doesn't it by which complaints have to be
609. 01:22:02 dealt with um if we if that is dealt with and we are then able to convene a meeting a standalone meeting
610. 01:22:07 of this committee uh with us as in galita magenta i certainly have no issue with that it's really
611. 01:22:12 important that we all move forward together yeah chair can i propose that then if we're deferring
612. 01:22:18 it that we have a special meeting thank you yeah that's i think councillor mckewan are you happy for
613. 01:22:25 that to be included in you on the back of your original recommendation chair and then if you're
614. 01:22:30 happy to take that amendment and i'll yeah i i think this is vitally important and if a standalone meeting
615. 01:22:36 it would be necessary could i also add chair that then perhaps that you know the chief officer said
616. 01:22:42 there are time scales that estin will have to review this within could we insist that the special meeting
617. 01:22:48 be called within say seven days of the of the complaint being heard yeah and the outcome yeah are we happy to
618. 01:22:58 incorporate that all into the amendment quickly yeah the third recommendation says that members consider
619. 01:23:06 no sorry the second recommendation says that members ensure the development of a robust post
620. 01:23:11 inspection action plan and i think the deadline for the post inspection action plan is the end of
621. 01:23:17 november is that correct it was three months from when it was released is that yeah esten esten have
622. 01:23:26 identified that they are likely to visit us for the improvement conference to discuss the post
623. 01:23:31 inspection action plan in early december when does the action plan have to be sort of
624. 01:23:41 in its draft form by we don't have a specific date from esten obviously they want it done as soon as
625. 01:23:47 possible so we are working at pace to achieve that okay so if we if we can now move on we've had the
626. 01:23:55 proposal for the deferral along with um just just to recap that this is returned to this committee within
627. 01:24:04 seven days of the complaint being resolved i think that was everything in its entirety wasn't it obviously
628. 01:24:11 we won't know that because of what's in diaries will be in order to but that's the okay and we move to
629. 01:24:18 the vote all those in favor so that's one two three four five six
630. 01:24:30 seven all those against two three so that's carried can i ask them if we've got anything i'm conscious
631. 01:24:42 that i've got you know all senior managers here and we are very busy people um i'm just wondering is
632. 01:24:47 there anything on the agenda items that would require emma i know you're going to support me in the school
633. 01:24:51 balances report is there anything else on the agenda that the colleagues need to stay for if they or if
634. 01:24:57 they have the things that they need to go and do they can go and do with your permission
635. 01:25:01 okay everyone if we can uh come to order and go to the next gender item that's number seven school
636. 01:25:54 balances and you can bring in the chief officer you're fed up of hearing my voice already this
637. 01:26:01 afternoon so i'm going to delegate because emma as our finance manager has kindly offered to leave the
638. 01:26:07 introduction to this report but obviously you know we'll work together to answer any of your questions
639. 01:26:12 deal hammer yeah thank you claire thank you chair uh good afternoon members um you will have all seen
640. 01:26:19 a copy of the report uh so i'll just focus on the key financial elements within the paper today and just
641. 01:26:25 moving straight to table one in the report um this table shows a further decline in closing balances
642. 01:26:30 across flinch schools between march 25 and march 26 with a net reduction of around 3.9 million pounds
643. 01:26:37 the total held in balances for all schools is now at a deficit of 3.48 million pounds which equates
644. 01:26:42 to minus 2.8 percent of the overall delegated schools budget as you can see in the table the
645. 01:26:48 balance for secondary schools is now in deficit by around four million pounds which is around minus
646. 01:26:53 7.4 percent of the total secondary schools budget table 2 in section 1.03 shows the deteriorating overall
647. 01:27:01 position um for reserves with the total school reserves dropping by from 12.5 million in 21 22
648. 01:27:09 to minus 3.5 million in 25 26 a total reduction of 16 million in that five year time frame we recognize
649. 01:27:17 that this is down to high levels of inflation over recent years the increase in demands and workloads for
650. 01:27:23 in schools and the historical budget cuts this is reflective of the position nationally but the
651. 01:27:28 deteriorating position is very concerning looking at secondary schools in more detail the report
652. 01:27:34 highlights the 2.15 million downward shift in reserves in this sector and table three sets out the
653. 01:27:40 percentage reserves held in all of our secondary schools as you can see in the table all secondary
654. 01:27:45 schools now have balances less than five percent of their school budget four of the 11 secondary schools
655. 01:27:50 ended the year with surplus balances of up to five percent of the school budget and the remaining second
656. 01:27:55 seven secondary schools ended with deficit balances which is comparable to last year in total the level
657. 01:28:02 of deficit comes to 4.5 million and it's expected that that position will decline further in 2627
658. 01:28:09 table four in section 1.07 also tells the story of the worsening position in primary schools with 38 of
659. 01:28:16 schools that hold negative reserves compared to 28 last year the total of these deficits comes to
660. 01:28:22 comes to around 2.3 million pounds and a further 25 of primary schools hold balances between 0 and 5
661. 01:28:29 of their budget meaning that overall 60 of primary schools now hold reserves that are below 5 of the
662. 01:28:35 delegated budget section 1.08 sorry indicates that both of our special specialist schools ended the
663. 01:28:42 financial year with surplus balances looking at the indicative information for 2627 uh table six in
664. 01:28:50 section 1.12 provides a summary of the forecasted license deficit information for each sector as you
665. 01:28:56 can see we currently have 36 schools requiring license deficit applications for 2627 and an anticipated use
666. 01:29:04 of reserves across all sectors of 3.4 million pounds in year we are and will continue to undertake rigorous
667. 01:29:11 reviews of the license deficit applications and the ongoing monitoring of decisions around expenditure
668. 01:29:16 in line with our policies section 1.14 of the report provides a little more detail around the
669. 01:29:22 interventions available to us as a local authority for schools in financial difficulty ranging from the
670. 01:29:27 support challenge process to warning notice and the suspension of delegated financial powers
671. 01:29:32 we will be reviewing our policies and processes following the publication of the estin report
672. 01:29:38 and we will also be undertaking review of our current school funding formula to ensure that the
673. 01:29:42 delegation methodology for school budgets remains fit for purpose finally section 1.16 of the report
674. 01:29:48 provides an update on the forecasted pupil numbers within financial schools over the next three years
675. 01:29:53 as you can see in table 7 of the report the decline of birth rates are expected to continue
676. 01:29:58 which will have an impact on learner numbers in our schools ultimately this could result in a reduction
677. 01:30:04 in funding available to schools through the funding formula there are some very high level estimates
678. 01:30:09 of the potential budget reduction included within the report but they are just for information only at
679. 01:30:13 this stage that's if anybody's got any questions thank you thank you very much emma is there any other
680. 01:30:20 officers want to come in before bringing members no in that case if we bring in council of priests thank you
681. 01:30:29 chair thank you for the report um it's a very it's a report that we didn't want to see here um i'm extremely
682. 01:30:40 concerned about the speedy collapse of the financial position of our schools the overall level of school
683. 01:30:46 the financial reserves have moved from a positive 450 000 surplus in march 2025 to 3 million 482 net deficit
684. 01:30:57 in march 26 with secondary schools accounting for 4.008 deficit if you look back over the last few years
685. 01:31:08 i have brought this up time and time again and stated that things need to change
686. 01:31:15 this time last year i warned that schools were on a knife edge and here we are now
687. 01:31:21 this report also highlights the very real consequences of these pressures including staff reductions larger
688. 01:31:28 classrooms and mixed classes reduced reduction in the aspects of the curriculum by not choice not being able
689. 01:31:37 to deliver the full range that we want them to deliver looking ahead the forecast deficit could reach
690. 01:31:44 8.2 million by march 27 so i've got the below questions i'm i'm hoping that the chair will allow
691. 01:31:52 me to do all of them if he can i will try and put them together um i've got over 10 so i will try and
692. 01:31:59 reduce them if you can yeah okay first question secondary schools finance seven out of our 11 that is 63.64
693. 01:32:10 of secondary schools ended 25 26 in deficit with a combination deficit of 4.509 million the report
694. 01:32:19 describes the financial resilience of the secondary section as being of significance concern i would say
695. 01:32:26 catastrophic but that is the official title of it what specific intervention is being put in place for
696. 01:32:32 these schools and when should scrutiny expect to see measurable improvements that's my first question
697. 01:32:43 i presume cadera we're going to pick these up as we go because i'm sorry officers will not remember 10
698. 01:32:47 questions
699. 01:33:06 apologies all right um yeah if we can maybe take them individually try and keep them try and keep the
700. 01:33:12 flow as much as possible just so it gives the officers the opportunity to respond and also i
701. 01:33:17 imagine council priest should bring in a very important issue here and become very well prepared so
702. 01:33:23 okay uh deal potatoes um i will try and keep my answers brief i don't know where the solution is
703. 01:33:31 because we are delegating the school's delegated budget which is the largest pot to spend within the
704. 01:33:36 council through the formula to our schools i haven't got a magic porridge pot
705. 01:33:41 so i i don't i don't know how i can say to you how we can make an improvement unless there is more
706. 01:33:49 funding going in to the school's delegated budget you have been assured through reports um that we have
707. 01:33:56 a rigorous process for supporting and challenging our schools around managing their budgets the team work
708. 01:34:01 really hard we take a holistic view of our schools and we really challenge our schools to reduce their
709. 01:34:07 expenditure to try and help them to live within their means but there will come a point where we
710. 01:34:12 have to say to a school we cannot ask you to take any further cuts because actually it would make the
711. 01:34:18 delivery of your curriculum untenable or it would make the safety of your staff and pupils unsafe and
712. 01:34:24 we have had to make those decisions on a number of occasions okay next question thank you i think the
713. 01:34:33 that this one has actually been answered because the forecast of 8.2 million deficit uh which has been
714. 01:34:39 forecast by march 27 or is the council's realistic plan to prevent this figure becoming greater i think
715. 01:34:46 i've just had my answer to that that there isn't a plan because if you've got no funding coming forward
716. 01:34:52 um it will just be catastrophic to our education system so i'll move on from that one i'll go to question
717. 01:35:00 three impact on children's education which you just touched on uh the report uh indicates larger
718. 01:35:07 classrooms reduced literacy and numeracy support fewer interventions reduced curriculum enrichment and a
719. 01:35:15 reduced gcse and a level provision what monitoring is being undertaken to ensure financial savings do not
720. 01:35:23 translate into poorer educational outcomes for pupils again a very difficult question to
721. 01:35:34 answer obviously schools and leaders governing bodies are having to make difficult decisions aren't
722. 01:35:39 they at the school level they are responsible for the management of their budgets and they are
723. 01:35:44 having to make decisions about where they allocate their resources um you know and again they would
724. 01:35:49 then you know through their through their governing body processes would need to be monitoring
725. 01:35:54 you know is there any impact then on those reductions on um you know the support for learners and how that may
726. 01:36:00 well be translating into learner outcomes um obviously estin when they do their reports on schools will be
727. 01:36:06 making judgments obviously about the efficiency and the effectiveness of the school offer you know
728. 01:36:11 this is one way in which we are monitoring and reporting to you by working closely with our head
729. 01:36:17 teachers to gather this kind of information to get a sense of you know what the what the implications of
730. 01:36:23 this difficult financial situation are um you know when we report that to you um you know regularly you
731. 01:36:30 know through this committee so it's it is a really you know there is no doubt that you know these things
732. 01:36:35 are going to have an impact i think our schools are working incredibly hard to mitigate that impact
733. 01:36:42 um we provide them with as much support as we can we maximize obviously all the grant funding that goes into
734. 01:36:48 schools to support to support their budgets um but there again there is no easy answer councillor priest
735. 01:36:55 here is there and you know i know obviously we've we've touched on the fact that we do have um you know
736. 01:37:02 a number of schools two two secondary schools in a statutory category at the moment i don't believe
737. 01:37:09 there is anything in those reports that makes a direct correlation between the school's performance
738. 01:37:13 on the school's finance other factors were at play in terms of the outcome for those schools so
739. 01:37:20 at the moment in my recollection of recent inspection reports i am not seeing anything that is linking the
740. 01:37:28 school finance with the outcome for the school however that's probably not going to be the case for
741. 01:37:35 that much longer is it when we look at the level of pressure and realistically i have to say that to you
742. 01:37:40 don't say at some point there is going to be a tipping point uh where schools are going to see
743. 01:37:45 that their their struggles in terms of deploying resources potentially could have an impact could have
744. 01:37:52 an impact on learner outcomes but i know our schools i do need to pay testament to our schools
745. 01:37:56 who are working really hard to prevent that happening and again to the support that they get
746. 01:38:01 provided through our teams you know to try and find ways to mitigate that and maximize their
747. 01:38:06 efficient operation and you know how they how they deliver their curriculum but you will know that
748. 01:38:12 you know this will lead to broader conversations about actually you know the level of finance and
749. 01:38:17 the size of the school estate and as you recognize it is having an impact mixed age classes large classes
750. 01:38:23 so it has to go hand in hand with discussions around the school modernization strategy
751. 01:38:30 well priest thank you thank you for that comprehensive uh response uh staffing reductions
752. 01:38:36 the report states that 169 positions were replaced in 2025 26 with a further 57 posts having reduced
753. 01:38:46 hours alongside redundancies already taking place in 26 27 what assessment has been made of the impact of
754. 01:38:55 these staffing reductions on workload pupil support and school standards that would be the responsibility of
755. 01:39:06 the school leadership team and the governing body when they are obviously reviewing their budget and having
756. 01:39:11 to consider whether they need to make workforce reductions but so it is a governing body responsibility
757. 01:39:17 and then to monitor the impact of that but again through the support they get from the school finance team
758. 01:39:22 and our school improvement team and our hr colleagues there is that collective discussion when a school is in
759. 01:39:27 that position you know to have a robust discussion about the risks and again how they can be mitigated but ultimately it does sit with the school
760. 01:39:34 the school board i believe the chief executive wants to come in quickly yeah so it's just the point
761. 01:39:42 made before the point that's just been made um yeah i mean we'll come on to that won't because
762. 01:39:47 councillor mac is asking to follow on uh which is it's on the rig it's on a corporate risk register as
763. 01:39:51 well so it's the highest risk and the most serious risk within the council at this moment in time
764. 01:39:55 which i'm sure you'll want to unpack when we get to that point next one thank you chair um thank you for letting me come
765. 01:40:06 I won't do my question on Estyn because we've already said that we would keep that.
766. 01:40:11 So I will leave that, even though that Estyn have talked about the financial strategic of,
767. 01:40:20 and it's a risk to schools, the deficit and the impact of financial stability.
768. 01:40:26 But I won't bring that up as a question.
769. 01:40:29 The report, it questions whether the funding formula provides sufficient resources,
770. 01:40:36 particularly for smaller schools.
771. 01:40:38 We heard it in another meeting today that smaller schools are not up to if a separate catering company were going to take it on,
772. 01:40:47 they wouldn't take on the smaller schools.
773. 01:40:51 But in particular, smaller schools and school serving are smaller communities.
774. 01:40:57 When the planning review is at the school funding formula, when will it be completed?
775. 01:41:03 And will scrutiny have an opportunity to examine its findings before any changes are implemented?
776. 01:41:13 Emma?
777. 01:41:13 Thank you. Thanks.
778. 01:41:15 We are currently looking at ways in which we can review our school funding formula,
779. 01:41:19 and we will follow the correct process to bring that through school.
780. 01:41:23 We're hopeful to have that done this financial year, by the end of this financial year.
781. 01:41:29 But we are just engaging with providers, really, in terms of offering support for that review.
782. 01:41:36 I hope I could add to that as well.
783. 01:41:38 The size of the cake is the size of the cake.
784. 01:41:44 The funding formula determines how that cake is divided.
785. 01:41:49 And it is right that the formula is reviewed.
786. 01:41:51 It's a piece of work that, because of huge capacity issues over many years, has not been done.
787. 01:41:56 Esten have recognised that, and obviously it will be done.
788. 01:41:59 But the problem is the size of the cake.
789. 01:42:02 There may be some variations between how that cake is divided under the different headings.
790. 01:42:07 The funding formula is a really complex piece of work.
791. 01:42:11 But actually what is also critical is that, as well as you being cited on that,
792. 01:42:16 our head teachers are actively involved in that discussion.
793. 01:42:19 Because you know when any sort of formula changes, there will be winners and there will be losers.
794. 01:42:23 So if the size of the cake is the size of the cake, then there has to be an agreement then about where those slices might move to different sections of that cake.
795. 01:42:36 And, you know, we do.
796. 01:42:36 But, you know, there are things I think that, you know, we can look at in terms of that.
797. 01:42:40 You know, is it delivering for our schools perhaps in more deprived areas?
798. 01:42:44 That's an area I know we do need to look at.
799. 01:42:47 So, yes, obviously we will bring that piece of work to you.
800. 01:42:50 But be assured that our head teacher colleagues will be involved in that discussion.
801. 01:42:53 And actually, if I'm right, Emma, it would also it would need to go through the school budget forum as the statutory committee on that relates to matters of school funding.
802. 01:43:04 Thank you, Councillor Preech.
803. 01:43:06 Thank you.
804. 01:43:07 I've got a question now on ALN.
805. 01:43:10 So this is your pressures that you're suffering at the moment.
806. 01:43:13 And I just want to say what a fantastic job the ALN team do.
807. 01:43:17 And it just so that we do appreciate what your teams are doing.
808. 01:43:22 And can you pass that on to them, please?
809. 01:43:25 The report identifies increased demand and complicity of additional learning needs as a major financial pressure.
810. 01:43:33 How much of the school's current school's deficit position is directly attributed to the ALN pressure?
811. 01:43:42 And is the additional funding being provided sufficiently to meet the actual costs of the school?
812. 01:43:49 And I think I know the answer to this before I've even asked it.
813. 01:43:52 But I want to ask it anyway.
814. 01:43:54 Thank you.
815. 01:43:55 Can I say, first of all, thank you.
816. 01:44:01 Acknowledging the work of the team because our ALN team are amazing.
817. 01:44:07 Councillor Mackie reference changed.
818. 01:44:09 But we're still reeling after ALN being implemented.
819. 01:44:13 You know, so are our schools.
820. 01:44:14 And actually, the increase in demand has put such pressure on that team who are so professional,
821. 01:44:20 who provide that middle ground between schools, between families.
822. 01:44:25 And they have to tread a very careful line.
823. 01:44:27 You know, in the work that they do, they are so professional and so good at what they do.
824. 01:44:32 And I'm sure there are many families that feel very well supported by them.
825. 01:44:36 So I will pass it on.
826. 01:44:37 Thank you for your comments.
827. 01:44:39 Emma and I have done a lot of work on this, haven't we, Emma?
828. 01:44:42 And again, yes, it is one of those that's really difficult to actually identify.
829. 01:44:47 We engaged with our headteachers to try and get them to identify how much of their deficit
830. 01:44:53 or how much pressure they were under because of ALN.
831. 01:44:56 And I know in your meetings with schools, that's cited probably as the main reason why schools
832. 01:45:03 may be going into deficit.
833. 01:45:05 Just referencing back some of the other points that were made, I think what's happened certainly
834. 01:45:10 over the last five years is that our schools are looking at the resource they've got and
835. 01:45:14 looking at how they can be more efficient with that.
836. 01:45:16 You know, reflecting back to when I was in school, in school as a teacher, not in school
837. 01:45:21 as a pupil.
838. 01:45:22 But, you know, we had a number of teaching assistants and they were coming in at the time
839. 01:45:26 and teachers didn't want them.
840. 01:45:28 You know, it was like, who is this additional adult?
841. 01:45:30 And then we've gone through a phase where a teaching assistant is an essential part of
842. 01:45:35 the workforce.
843. 01:45:36 And I would certainly agree with that.
844. 01:45:37 But it isn't somebody to be stuck to a child.
845. 01:45:41 That's not the role.
846. 01:45:42 It's not a pupil assistant.
847. 01:45:43 It's a teaching assistant.
848. 01:45:45 And I think sometimes we can lose sight of that.
849. 01:45:47 And there is a demand in the system for one-to-one, you know, for various reasons.
850. 01:45:52 And so it is about schools acknowledging that, that the budget they get has to be used effectively.
851. 01:45:58 And I think we've worked really hard with our schools and sharing good practice, sharing
852. 01:46:03 where they're creative, sharing where they're setting up their own provision, you know, and
853. 01:46:08 actually meeting the needs of their learners within their cohorts.
854. 01:46:11 And so that's an important part of work.
855. 01:46:14 But I think you're right in that the main demand on our school budgets is generally around
856. 01:46:22 ALM, particularly in the primary sector, I would say, isn't it?
857. 01:46:24 So we've tried to quantify it.
858. 01:46:26 It's a very difficult job.
859. 01:46:28 But, you know, we're certainly working with schools around that, aren't we?
860. 01:46:32 Thank you.
861. 01:46:33 Councilor Priest, if I can just ask if you can...
862. 01:46:35 I'm going to do this as my last question.
863. 01:46:38 And then I'd like to put another recommendation.
864. 01:46:41 Okay.
865. 01:46:42 Okay.
866. 01:46:42 So I'm going to make it my last question, this one, because they're all on the same sort
867. 01:46:46 of topic.
868. 01:46:47 So 13 primary schools have committed four more redundancy processes, 26, 27.
869. 01:46:54 What safeguards are in place to ensure that further financial reductions do not result in
870. 01:47:00 unacceptable reductions to the curriculum breadth, additional support, or provision for pupils
871. 01:47:06 with ALM?
872. 01:47:12 That's, again, a very difficult question to answer.
873. 01:47:14 As I say, when a school is reviewing its budget and is either in a deficit or has the risk of
874. 01:47:20 moving into a deficit, they have got to find ways to manage their funding.
875. 01:47:25 You know, they do not have a right to a deficit with the council.
876. 01:47:29 You can see the risk it poses, the level of deficits that we have.
877. 01:47:33 So first and foremost, that work has to be done at a school level.
878. 01:47:35 They have to look at their provision and decide, you know, where could they possibly make reductions?
879. 01:47:41 And as part of that process, you know, they need to be risk assessing, really, what impact
880. 01:47:45 that would be.
881. 01:47:46 So that is at school level.
882. 01:47:49 However, because of the licensed deficit protocol, you will be aware that schools move through
883. 01:47:53 a staged approach of sort of challenge, intervention.
884. 01:47:57 And it goes back to what I said earlier.
885. 01:47:59 When a school can absolutely demonstrate that it is too much of a risk, either to pupil safety,
886. 01:48:07 pupil well-being, or the competent delivery of the curriculum, then as a local authority,
887. 01:48:14 we have basically had to endorse that deficit position because we can't allow that to have
888. 01:48:20 such an adverse impact on the quality of teaching and learning and the safety of pupils and staff.
889. 01:48:27 And one of the things that we've really refined, I would say, over the last 12 months is the
890. 01:48:32 process by which we assure ourselves that that actually genuinely is the school's position.
891. 01:48:40 I'm not saying we don't trust our headteachers.
892. 01:48:42 Of course we do.
893. 01:48:43 They are all professionals.
894. 01:48:44 But having been a headteacher, you always fight your corner, don't you?
895. 01:48:48 So what we now do is we do what, you know, we would call a bit of a deep dive into a school.
896. 01:48:54 So when we have a school who is saying, I cannot reduce my support staff anymore because of the
897. 01:48:59 level of ALN in my school, I cannot reduce the number of classes in my school because, you know,
898. 01:49:04 we are at, you know, we've already got mixed-age classes, you know, the level of need.
899. 01:49:08 You know, I don't believe I can cut my budget anymore.
900. 01:49:12 Then we send a team in.
901. 01:49:13 And again, this is resource heavy for a very, very small team, but we feel it's a worthwhile
902. 01:49:17 investment.
903. 01:49:19 So we will have Emma and the school's finance officer as part of that.
904. 01:49:23 We will have the school improvement advisor as part of that.
905. 01:49:27 We will have a member of Jeanette's ALN team as part of that because what we're trying
906. 01:49:31 to do is we're trying to look at the needs of the school holistically.
907. 01:49:34 Because I can say, no, you just need to cut that member of staff, but we need to understand
908. 01:49:39 and be assured that that's not going to have an adverse impact on learners.
909. 01:49:42 So again, that's where the school improvement advisor's knowledge of the school is key.
910. 01:49:46 The finance information, the level of ALN and 11, so that we come to a decision and that
911. 01:49:51 is actually endorsed then, you know, by the leader, the chief executive, cabinet member,
912. 01:49:55 because when you get to stage five of the process, you are in front of that panel, head
913. 01:49:59 teacher, chair of governors, explaining why you are in that position.
914. 01:50:03 As I say, we have made decisions that we've had to support the level of deficit that the
915. 01:50:07 school has posted because there is no alternative without additional funding.
916. 01:50:13 However, that additional funding is achieved.
917. 01:50:16 Okay.
918. 01:50:17 Just a quick suggestion, Councillor Priest, I believe that you wanted to change the recommendation.
919. 01:50:21 No, to add to it.
920. 01:50:22 To add to it.
921. 01:50:23 Would it be okay for us if we, when we come to the recommendation, I'll come back to you
922. 01:50:28 and then you can.
923. 01:50:28 Yeah, I can do it either way.
924. 01:50:30 Just, it might be changed if other people speak.
925. 01:50:32 They may want to, all I was going to, do you want me to say what they are?
926. 01:50:36 Yeah, go on.
927. 01:50:37 Yeah.
928. 01:50:37 So recommendation two, recommendation, send a letter to Welsh Government asking for further
929. 01:50:45 funding specifically for education for all pupils.
930. 01:50:51 Not just ALN.
931. 01:50:53 I know we need it for ALN as well, but this is for all pupils.
932. 01:50:57 We have had year on, year on cuts to education.
933. 01:51:01 We said last year that this can't be done again.
934. 01:51:05 We said it the year before that, we cannot do this again.
935. 01:51:08 And now we're up to a stage.
936. 01:51:10 I said it was knife edge last year.
937. 01:51:12 We've gone beyond that.
938. 01:51:14 This is cutting the lifeline of education to Flenshire.
939. 01:51:18 So we need to do something about it.
940. 01:51:21 So we need to send a letter to Welsh Government.
941. 01:51:24 Three, for the committee to support zero cuts this year to the education budget.
942. 01:51:31 And a recommendation to increase it, not for it just to be zero cuts, but to increase the
943. 01:51:39 education budget.
944. 01:51:40 Thank you, Chair.
945. 01:51:40 Now move on to Councillor Claydon.
946. 01:51:44 Thank you, Chair.
947. 01:51:48 I'm just looking at the table of schools here, and there seems to be quite a difference in
948. 01:51:53 deficits from one school to another.
949. 01:51:56 And I was just wondering if there's any patterns that have evolved as to why schools get into
950. 01:52:01 deficit and why they don't.
951. 01:52:02 And is there anything done if you've identified those patterns?
952. 01:52:11 If I start, Emma, and you can chip in, there are a variety of factors why schools move into
953. 01:52:15 a deficit position.
954. 01:52:16 We've talked long and hard here about the funding challenges that the authority has faced over
955. 01:52:22 several years and the difficult decisions that council has had to make to apply cuts to the
956. 01:52:27 school delegated budget.
957. 01:52:29 So there's less money going in, but school operating costs are increasing.
958. 01:52:33 Pay awards, inflation.
959. 01:52:35 So the costs are going up, but the amount of money going into schools is going down.
960. 01:52:39 We've talked about the pressures for children with additional learning needs and the additional
961. 01:52:45 support of the needs.
962. 01:52:46 But also don't forget this is within the focus of significantly falling pupil numbers, and
963. 01:52:51 it's the pupil numbers that drives the money into the school budget.
964. 01:52:54 So those, I think, are the consistent themes, are they not?
965. 01:52:56 I know when we sit with schools, it's usually that combination of, you know, their role is
966. 01:53:00 falling, they've got complex needs in terms of the support the children need, and school
967. 01:53:08 costs are going up.
968. 01:53:10 Emma, did you want to add anything to that?
969. 01:53:11 I was just going to raise the falling pupil numbers.
970. 01:53:17 I think it's possibly a timing issue in some cases where schools have gone more into deficit,
971. 01:53:22 but they will be able to recover at a later point because of that falling pupil numbers.
972. 01:53:27 They can then structure their classes, and there has to be a timing element allowed within
973. 01:53:32 that, really, to allow the schools to adjust their staffing structures.
974. 01:53:36 So that probably is a key factor as well.
975. 01:53:39 So we have a licensed deficit protocol, as I say, deficit budget.
976. 01:53:50 So we take them through that process.
977. 01:53:52 As I say, initially, we're the school's finance officer and Emma and the senior manager for
978. 01:53:58 school improvements.
979. 01:53:59 And, you know, we will challenge, we will make recommendations.
980. 01:54:02 Look, you haven't tried this, go, you know, try that.
981. 01:54:04 We send them away.
982. 01:54:05 They will have a look at their plan.
983. 01:54:07 They will try and refresh their plan because the aim is to recover that deficit position
984. 01:54:10 within three years.
985. 01:54:12 For some of our schools, we recognise that because of the size of the deficit, that might
986. 01:54:15 take five years.
987. 01:54:17 For some of our schools, secondary in particular, there's no really easy answer about when they
988. 01:54:22 might recover that deficit.
989. 01:54:24 You know, I would want to assure you it's not about financial mismanagement.
990. 01:54:28 You know, our schools work very hard in terms of, and the governing bodies work very hard.
991. 01:54:33 But as Emma says, you know, when a school has to reduce its staffing complement, particularly
992. 01:54:38 teachers, there are strict employment processes around that in terms of the time it takes from
993. 01:54:44 that point of identifying that early warning that the school may need to make a staffing
994. 01:54:48 reduction to work through the consultation process of their staff, to engage with trade unions,
995. 01:54:54 for the governing body to then move through that process of developing what their criteria
996. 01:54:59 for selection will be, applying those criteria, making the difficult decision.
997. 01:55:03 The member of staff has a right of appeal.
998. 01:55:05 So, you know, there are factors around the processes for managing that change as well that
999. 01:55:11 do add, you know, to the timing.
1000. 01:55:13 And teachers can only be dismissed at the end of every term.
1001. 01:55:16 They can't be dismissed midterm.
1002. 01:55:18 So support staff have different timings in terms of notice periods.
1003. 01:55:22 So it's quite a complex beast, really.
1004. 01:55:24 Does that answer your question?
1005. 01:55:26 Councillor Fadden.
1006. 01:55:27 I think sort of, it's all those things that determine whether a school goes into deficit
1007. 01:55:34 or not and the extent of it.
1008. 01:55:38 Yeah, I think I need to think about it.
1009. 01:55:40 But it's an interesting table of figures and questions about it, I think.
1010. 01:55:47 And Councillor Fadden, if you, you know, you want to come and talk to any of the officers
1011. 01:55:50 outside of the meeting, more than happy perhaps to sort of thank you through the deficit protocol
1012. 01:55:53 and, you know, answer any more of your questions.
1013. 01:55:57 Okay.
1014. 01:55:58 Thank you.
1015. 01:55:59 Councillor Marshall.
1016. 01:55:59 I've got a number of questions, but what I'll do is I'll email them to Emma, because
1017. 01:56:13 it's regarding the formatting of the table, the appendix one.
1018. 01:56:17 I'll just quickly run through them.
1019. 01:56:20 Please can these tables be split up to be over two pages.
1020. 01:56:24 When printed on A4, the text is 1.3mm high, which is 3.6 point font.
1021. 01:56:30 And it's too small to read.
1022. 01:56:32 The next page in the agenda pack says this page is intentionally left blank, so it will
1023. 01:56:37 not use any additional paper.
1024. 01:56:39 Is the source data for this and previous years available in an Excel spreadsheet to allow some
1025. 01:56:45 data manipulation and sorting by members?
1026. 01:56:50 And I've got some schools are doing well and some are doing not so well.
1027. 01:56:56 St. Anthony's Saltney has increased his reserves by 6,221.
1028. 01:57:01 And that's come out of deficit and the balance is now 2,361.
1029. 01:57:04 St. David's Mould has increased his reserves by 12,937.
1030. 01:57:10 And the balance is now 8% of the budget.
1031. 01:57:13 Nanach VP has increased his reserve balance by 4,733.
1032. 01:57:18 Is this increase in balance an indication that the budget is a little too high?
1033. 01:57:22 Not spending enough?
1034. 01:57:24 Saving for a purchase this year?
1035. 01:57:26 Or are they being prudent?
1036. 01:57:27 And our final one is taking Drury as an example, and I'm not picking on Drury, but just an example.
1037. 01:57:38 Its 2025-26 deficit is 22,018, which is 2.9% of the budget, which is calculated to be 759241.
1038. 01:57:51 The 31st of March 2025 reserve balance was 74,329.
1039. 01:57:59 This means that Drury spent 855,588 in 2025-26, which is an overspend of 96,347, which is 12% over budget.
1040. 01:58:13 Do we know what this money was spent on?
1041. 01:58:16 Okay, thank you.
1042. 01:58:17 I've just got one more.
1043. 01:58:21 These are delegated budgets for each school.
1044. 01:58:23 Does each school prepare a statement of accounts that details income, expenditure and balance sheet?
1045. 01:58:30 I can send them this so she can answer it.
1046. 01:58:34 So I don't need an answer now.
1047. 01:58:37 But you can answer some if you like.
1048. 01:58:40 Can I raise a point of order, Chair?
1049. 01:58:41 I know Councillor Marshall is relatively new to this committee, but we've always had a precedent that we don't name schools on this committee.
1050. 01:58:52 We would sometimes refer to them by the number that's in the code, you know, school 123, for example.
1051. 01:58:58 I just thought it might help Councillor Marshall in future when he said, you know, he's not picking on any individual school.
1052. 01:59:05 But we have always had a precedent of not naming individual schools.
1053. 01:59:10 Thank you, Councillor McEwen.
1054. 01:59:11 As it's the case, Councillor Marshall, that you're going to email those specific points over to the officer directly.
1055. 01:59:20 I take it that the officers will be able to respond.
1056. 01:59:23 And again, I think Councillor McEwen makes a point that we shouldn't particularly be picking out individual schools.
1057. 01:59:29 I wasn't aware of that.
1058. 01:59:31 So I'm sorry.
1059. 01:59:32 Apologise for that.
1060. 01:59:33 No.
1061. 01:59:33 Thank you.
1062. 01:59:34 Right.
1063. 01:59:35 Just to go through, I've got the following members down to speak.
1064. 01:59:38 So if we can try and keep it as concise as possible.
1065. 01:59:44 I have Councillor David Mackie.
1066. 01:59:46 I have Councillor Fran Lister.
1067. 01:59:48 I have Councillor Ryan McEwen, Councillor David Evans and Councillor Wendy White.
1068. 01:59:52 And Councillor Dave, is it something in relation to what's been said?
1069. 01:59:58 I'll bring the leader in very quickly then and then we'll move through the sequence of committee members.
1070. 02:00:01 we'll move through the sequence of committee members thank you chair i will be quick i've
1071. 02:00:04 already spoke to um to kent skate about this reminding him that rural schools what kirsty
1072. 02:00:11 williams said you know that she didn't want to close any rural schools and i said well what what
1073. 02:00:16 you're going to do ken now because we are really struggling now and the bottom line is going to be
1074. 02:00:23 we can talk about schools we can talk about everything but the bottom line is what's the
1075. 02:00:28 council tax going to be and that's where that's because that's that's where it's going to be
1076. 02:00:34 coming where we've gone after we're voting so whatever we spend we've got to we've got to make
1077. 02:00:39 sure that we balance our books with the council tax but i'm but seriously i said to ken remember
1078. 02:00:45 what kirstie williams said and i want you to be saying that in the senate there's got to be more
1079. 02:00:50 money coming from somewhere for the schools thank you i think just briefly to say i think um
1080. 02:00:56 it's good that you've had that conversation with ken but i think we need to remember who we've got in
1081. 02:01:03 power and welsh governments and we need to be going to the ones that are going to be making the decisions
1082. 02:01:07 as well i would it just remember they need to get somebody with them so if ken can do the same as what uh
1083. 02:01:21 what kirstie williams did or whatever that's how they got the money so i'm hoping that ken's going
1084. 02:01:26 to hold their feet to the fire if they want the support of the labour group i think also we need to
1085. 02:01:32 be making direct contact with first minister and the relevant ministers as well i think we need all
1086. 02:01:37 hands on deck you know whoever we can get to help us we get to help us don't that's on the go um
1087. 02:01:44 um chair also with the wlga as well thank you if i can bring in councillor mackie thank you chair i think
1088. 02:01:53 the first thing i want to say is the difficulty with schools is they have to provide a service yes
1089. 02:02:01 that service has to be to a certain standard i.e you've got to put a teacher in front of a class
1090. 02:02:07 it's not the same as a business where you're providing a service or whatever and you can reduce
1091. 02:02:18 the standard of your service so you have a cutting staff and you close for half a day a week or whatever
1092. 02:02:28 you don't have that option in schools and i think that's what we have to
1093. 02:02:34 we have to really have our heads round right the way across the council because that's the impossible
1094. 02:02:42 situation where our schools are heading they and this this this increase in in deficit budgets is
1095. 02:02:51 showing that that that's all it's a statement not a question i'm sorry so i just wanted to start with
1096. 02:02:57 that because i think that's something something we should begin with at every committee we should start
1097. 02:03:03 off by saying that because it's a big education committee because it's a fact and it's it's something
1098. 02:03:11 we can't have no control over right this list i have analyzed i've analyzed it in relation to preschool meals
1099. 02:03:21 i've analyzed it into spare places i've analyzed it in terms of funding per pupil and i've analyzed it in
1100. 02:03:30 relation to the numbers on roll and i'd like to just give you a few pointers that i think come out you
1101. 02:03:37 asked about trends and i think this might be actually providing you with some idea of what the trends are
1102. 02:03:46 in the schools which are in i've sorted the list into deficit order so i've got the ones who've got a
1103. 02:03:54 positive surplus the biggest ones at the top of my list at the bottom of my list i've got those with the
1104. 02:04:00 greatest surplus if we look sorry if i look at just the schools that have got a deficit it is not
1105. 02:04:10 mainly small schools there are four schools in there with pupil numbers over 250 and i think they would
1106. 02:04:22 need looking at specially you probably have already done it the others the majority this is only an impression
1107. 02:04:29 it's not i you know i'm not going to look at everyone the majority of the rest of the schools with a
1108. 02:04:36 deficit have be have in the region of just under 100 to just under 200 pupils so it's not the very small
1109. 02:04:48 schools right if we then look at the other end of the list the top of the list the majority of schools
1110. 02:04:58 schools with the high balances have in excess of 250 pupils the majority there are schools of that size
1111. 02:05:13 dotted around the table i'm just giving you trends here if we look at the uh at the middle of the
1112. 02:05:22 table the schools with uh zero from zero deficit budget up till about well let's say 50 000 60 000 pounds
1113. 02:05:35 a lot of those unfortunately are in the category of being within this just under 100 to just under 200
1114. 02:05:47 which makes me think and i think um we've had this more or less said anyway it makes me think that the
1115. 02:05:57 likelihood of these schools falling into the deficit situation is probably quite high because they are
1116. 02:06:06 they are they roughly have the same characteristics of the schools which are there now um i don't know if
1117. 02:06:14 that's any help at all to anybody it's a slightly different way of looking at the issue um and i
1118. 02:06:22 thought it might be useful i've looked i've told you the other things i looked at they didn't give me any
1119. 02:06:27 form of um actual um pattern at all the only pattern i could get was was with that and it's not perfect but
1120. 02:06:38 these things never are are they you have to look at them with a squint and then you know what you're
1121. 02:06:44 looking at that's what i've done hopefully it will help because the problem isn't going to go away the
1122. 02:06:50 problem is there because with what i started with you can't just remove people because you have to keep to
1123. 02:07:00 the standards thank you thank you very much councillor mackie council lister thank you um so i have two
1124. 02:07:15 contrasting points to make i will leave the political lobbying at the door um the it is a depressing read
1125. 02:07:22 and i'm desperately um well saddened really to to read them how difficult schools are finding it to remain
1126. 02:07:29 in budget um but i do have a couple of of questions we uh there was some extra aln funding from the budget
1127. 02:07:38 this year i know esten referenced evaluating how that aln funding had been used and whether it had actually
1128. 02:07:45 made any impact um and with that we've talked about smaller schools and um and we've also talked about um
1129. 02:07:54 um how yeah how aln is probably the biggest cost pressure and i think it is particularly felt in
1130. 02:08:00 those small schools where um if you have a child that requires one-to-one um and the funding doesn't
1131. 02:08:08 come with them you actually don't have any extra bodies in those schools to move them around um and
1132. 02:08:14 and to try and cater for the needs in various different classes which maybe you can do in a larger school
1133. 02:08:20 so i was wondering when when the review of the funding formula is done whether that is a factor
1134. 02:08:27 whether that would be taken into account um and what we can do really um i think i've read in the bbc news
1135. 02:08:33 actually only this week that a child requiring a one-to-one would cost about 22 000 pounds and actually
1136. 02:08:39 the sort of sum of money that follows that child is about 5 000 um and and that's not a council issue
1137. 02:08:45 that that's coming you know with the um barnet formula isn't it um but yes i am i am worried about
1138. 02:08:54 that and the second thing which is completely aside and i will declare a personal interest um schools
1139. 02:09:00 are obviously in charge of reducing their curriculum to meet their budgetary requirements and we've talked
1140. 02:09:05 about that very in the past i'm wondering at what point does the council say oh my gosh we can't offer
1141. 02:09:11 a subject across the whole county is there something in reserve to be able to offer that subject and i
1142. 02:09:18 declare a personal interest because in all honesty i'd like my child to be able to study a level music
1143. 02:09:22 when he gets to um to that age i'd like my younger son to be able to pursue german because he loves it
1144. 02:09:28 and i'm worried that those subjects are disappearing from our schools and and i think that is a you know
1145. 02:09:33 that's an issue that this level looks at because individual schools just have to look after the pennies
1146. 02:09:37 don't they so what's going on there i guess chief officer jeanette is there anything you would want
1147. 02:09:45 to perhaps provide in terms of an overview of the sort of the alien funding ever through the formula
1148. 02:09:49 on the additional funding that we delegate to schools just so that members of the committee
1149. 02:09:52 are clear around what how we manage that first i think it's a really good point about whether that 1.5
1150. 02:10:00 millions had an impact and so as part of the work around the formula we'll be looking at you know where
1151. 02:10:06 that went to schools and i think one of one of the members said with more money everyone's level should
1152. 02:10:12 increase and actually it didn't happen so we've got quite a um strict um part of the formula for aln
1153. 02:10:22 in terms of primary and secondary there are different elements that allocate the funding and
1154. 02:10:26 we've worked hard with both sectors to ensure that the money goes to where it's needed and that's quite
1155. 02:10:33 difficult to do isn't it to say okay right because we don't want schools sitting on large balances
1156. 02:10:40 because the money's gone there under a formula that doesn't allocate that and so we've done that really
1157. 02:10:46 really hard i want to say right okay and we actually have some schools who came back to us
1158. 02:10:52 after we've been you know very positive about that 1.5 million that gone insane why is our money gone down
1159. 02:11:00 and that is about the number of pupils on roll and the number of children with aln within that school
1160. 02:11:07 and we know that in some cases children move around schools and so their level of aln in the previous
1161. 02:11:14 year may have been higher and they could have had children leaving year six to have gone on somewhere
1162. 02:11:19 and so they didn't get as much money and they felt quite aggrieved about that because they're you know
1163. 02:11:23 everyone was anticipating that additional funding would come into them so i think it's a very good
1164. 02:11:29 point about looking or where did that go and did it have a you know an impact on lens and that would
1165. 02:11:34 be part of the work that we do um but just again to pick up on on another comment that you made um
1166. 02:11:41 council list about the funding following learners and you know if we went back to the old legislation
1167. 02:11:48 where we had a moderation panel that allocated money to statements you know we had a very clear process
1168. 02:11:55 about that where there was a consideration and an element of money was given to a school a body was
1169. 02:12:00 given to a school now i'm not advocating for that because i don't necessarily think that's right
1170. 02:12:06 right what i do advocate for is that the school has sufficient resource to respond to the needs of their
1171. 02:12:13 learners effectively and i think that's quite different isn't it it's the school having a budget
1172. 02:12:19 knowing the level of need coming in and saying right we can be responsive to this we can provide
1173. 02:12:24 some one-to-one here where that's required we can provide intervention in this area of need we can
1174. 02:12:30 provide that and so we have had some conversations with our primary head teachers who perhaps perceived
1175. 02:12:36 that as a positive if we had a system where money followed learners but when we explored that
1176. 02:12:43 you know the heads themselves um came to the point saying well what if we've already spent that money
1177. 02:12:47 before that child goes you know how do you then lump up an amount of funding that says okay if you know
1178. 02:12:54 so so moves to this school we're now going to take x amount of thousands out of that school and put it
1179. 02:13:00 into this one to follow that child it's a very complex matter and i don't think that is necessarily
1180. 02:13:05 the answer i think we need to be looking at how we're allocating the money how we're making sure
1181. 02:13:10 that that is going to where it's needed most and that the schools have the flexibility to respond
1182. 02:13:15 to the needs of their learners because they actually know that better than us
1183. 02:13:19 and can i come back to the other part of canadone is a question and a discussion we've had in committee
1184. 02:13:24 before isn't it um yes we are really worried as educators we are very worried about the contraction
1185. 02:13:30 of the curriculum you know we are all here because we are committed to a broad and balanced curriculum
1186. 02:13:35 that allows every learner to find their place to shine and develop and we know some learners have
1187. 02:13:40 particular skills and talents in different areas of the curriculum so all i can say to you at the
1188. 02:13:45 moment is that you know obviously that is a regular discussion with our head teacher federation
1189. 02:13:48 colleagues when we meet particularly with our secondary colleagues but you will know that the local
1190. 02:13:52 authority did make a direct intervention when the provision of music a level was at significant risk
1191. 02:13:57 because you know we've got um you know we've got six schools with six forms at some point you know i am
1192. 02:14:04 committed to that again that balanced offer across all of our schools but they may come a point where
1193. 02:14:09 we have to say is our post 16 provision viable if we're finding that schools individually are struggling
1194. 02:14:15 to offer that range of subjects particularly at a level you know to meet the needs of their students
1195. 02:14:22 so we had castellalen mold allen and harden high school sort of working informally uh as a trio
1196. 02:14:30 uh to identify that between them they couldn't all offer all of the a level courses um so casa lalen
1197. 02:14:36 um because of its expertise offered to host the music a level the local authority provided some
1198. 02:14:41 additional funding to support the additional costs that go with music a level because of the extra the
1199. 02:14:49 individual tuition that needs to be provided you know through the music service for students you
1200. 02:14:54 obviously having to reach a certain level of um graded qualification isn't it as part of the as part
1201. 02:14:59 of the a level so uh yeah and that that has worked to a degree we have been able to protect music so far
1202. 02:15:07 for example but it's going to be a conversation that's going to happen more and more and then it
1203. 02:15:12 comes back to well how many numbers of learners do we need to ensure that that course remains viable
1204. 02:15:17 and basically the issue then it creates for some learners and i will share with you that this you
1205. 02:15:24 know this this was um sort of an outcome is that if you want to do a particular combination of subjects
1206. 02:15:30 then you may have to accept that you may not be able to do that in the school where you've had your
1207. 02:15:34 statutory secondary education and that actually if you want that can those three schools in particular
1208. 02:15:40 do offer the core of the same subjects but then it's as you say it's whether it's the music whether
1209. 02:15:45 it's the drama whether it's the art and design you know so a learner may have to make a decision then
1210. 02:15:50 to make that move and i am aware that some learners made the decision to stay within their post school
1211. 02:15:58 shall i call it because that's where they wanted to be that's where their friends were and change their
1212. 02:16:03 change their options but i don't know what the solution is you know so we are working really hard to
1213. 02:16:10 protect those those subjects particularly like music particularly at the performing arts
1214. 02:16:15 which we know are so important for learners um and we will continue to try and find ways to do that
1215. 02:16:21 but it's it's it's challenging very briefly because i've got speakers the woman thank you just to say i
1216. 02:16:28 know we're talking about a level but the contraction of the a level numbers is a consequence of reducing
1217. 02:16:33 courses lower down and the input right from primary school and as budgets decrease you remove those
1218. 02:16:39 extra what are seen as extras and you get less people interested then these numbers gradually decline and
1219. 02:16:45 hence why cardiff university last year announced their potential closure of the music department which
1220. 02:16:50 thankfully didn't happen but yeah that is the i don't have an answer but this is the consequence of
1221. 02:16:58 of gradually like taking money out of schools that that that that happens okay councilman kewin
1222. 02:17:05 um thank you chair um just a few questions um in the table there are 14 primary schools which collectively
1223. 02:17:21 account for two million pound of deficit last year their deficits were a million so it seems and across
1224. 02:17:30 secondary six schools accounting for 4.1 million which i think um was only 2 million last year so it seems like the schools that are in deficit are getting worse whilst our schools with healthy surpluses are almost propping them up um so i guess the first question is
1225. 02:17:52 is that those that are in deficit is that those that are in deficit they should have forecasts over
1226. 02:17:57 the next two five ten years to be out of deficit what's the picture looking like for next year then
1227. 02:18:04 because we we should have that information i assume or can i get that information i can get you that information um
1228. 02:18:15 i think i suppose the point to to note on that is once a school is in deficit it's really really difficult for them to get out of deficit
1229. 02:18:22 um and that's why we try to prevent schools from going into deficit in the first place i suppose and taking that early action
1230. 02:18:29 i think once the deficit is in place like i say it is quite difficult to to recover um we are working with schools to try and support them to do that
1231. 02:18:38 um but in terms of the actual projection for next year i will provide that information separately if that's okay
1232. 02:18:46 thank you emma thanks emma and i think you know i agree that once they're in deficit it's difficult to get out but
1233. 02:18:52 they're sinking or they're drowning even more so as i said they've gone from a million in two million
1234. 02:18:57 sorry a million in primary last year to now two million and two million in secondary to now four
1235. 02:19:03 million so they're not even standing still are these deficit recovery plans working if they're going
1236. 02:19:10 backwards even more that that's that's the worry and i said that what is the the picture for 2027 um
1237. 02:19:18 um next question was um i know we've been provided with them before but how much are we expecting pupil
1238. 02:19:29 numbers to decrease next year because it leads me to councillor priest's recommendation and her amendment
1239. 02:19:35 to the recommendation or addition whichever it was and she said that she wanted to um propose that there are no
1240. 02:19:43 cuts to um education next year however if we are facing considerable pupil number decrease which i think we
1241. 02:19:53 are that would if we stand still that is in real terms a budget uplift because the pupil numbers have
1242. 02:20:00 pupil numbers have got less but we're giving them the same amount of money so i guess i guess i want
1243. 02:20:04 clarity from councillor priest of is she asking for um a budget as a cash figure or a budget
1244. 02:20:12 um per pupil number i guess before we before we vote on her recommendation
1245. 02:20:18 um and then i guess the other question to councillor priest as well is where does the money come from
1246. 02:20:26 because you know which which service are we going to cut to continue to increase education budget
1247. 02:20:34 or are we saying that we are going to sit in the chamber in february and we're going to vote for a
1248. 02:20:40 council tax increase to fund it we need to be clear about this that there is no magic money tree and we
1249. 02:20:47 we all want to continue to fund education and we want more money to go into education everyone in
1250. 02:20:53 this room agrees with that but where does the money come from you know it's it's great to sit here
1251. 02:20:58 and call for it but we have to be realistic about which service do we call when we call for it thank
1252. 02:21:04 you uh i will ask you to respond when we come to the recommendation just to get the other speakers as
1253. 02:21:11 well uh councillor david evans uh wendy yes uh thank you uh not a councillor by the way um yeah my
1254. 02:21:24 question relates really to something that councillor mackie said earlier on in this meeting about um
1255. 02:21:30 the surplus places the serious level of surplus places and my question is it has a piece of work
1256. 02:21:37 been done or could a piece of work been be done uh that looks at the cost of surplus keeping those
1257. 02:21:45 surplus places open for example we know that some schools formula is two to three thousand pounds per
1258. 02:21:53 pupil higher than the average formula and so could a piece of work be done that looks at what if those
1259. 02:22:02 surplus places were not costing that additional amount of money and to what extent would that
1260. 02:22:11 then offset the difficulties that so many of our schools are in thank you i'm looking across the table
1261. 02:22:22 at emma if she has an answer to that question thank you uh surplus places aren't actually taken into
1262. 02:22:29 account in the school funding formula and that's just i suppose an operational cost of to the school of the
1263. 02:22:35 um running a larger school and the funding is based on the pupils in school at that point in time so
1264. 02:22:43 we can do a piece of analysis and i think jenny has probably done that already um but they don't
1265. 02:22:48 actually impact on the funding formula as it stands no i understand that but i would like to see the
1266. 02:22:53 amount of money that is being spent keeping schools um that have serious um surplus places and therefore much
1267. 02:23:02 higher um funding per pupil per head per year i would like to see what that looks like we'll take
1268. 02:23:12 that away wendy and we'll give that some thought in terms of i mean you yeah i mean you're raising a
1269. 02:23:18 really important point aren't you trying to extrapolate really what is the cost to a school of having
1270. 02:23:23 those unfilled places because their budget is fixed based on a number of factors in the formula
1271. 02:23:28 people numbers obviously is a major part of that but as as is the capacity of the building and then
1272. 02:23:35 all of the costs that are associated with managing a building that is so you know too big for the
1273. 02:23:41 number of pupils that it's got we'll take that away and give that i think i think what i'm thinking about
1274. 02:23:46 is is what council mckeown is saying absolutely correctly that there is no magic uh no more magic
1275. 02:23:54 money there is no bigger pot and therefore we have to say how is the pot being spent and where can um
1276. 02:24:02 changes be made
1277. 02:24:06 david if members look at their report i think is it page um the top of page 50 table seven
1278. 02:24:12 there's a commentary just beneath that that says uh the primary sector pupil numbers are expected to
1279. 02:24:17 decline by around 800 learners uh up to september 2028 that's only two years away and the secondary
1280. 02:24:26 sector is anticipated to reduce by around 350 learners in the same period so in a relatively short period of
1281. 02:24:33 time we are seeing again the impact of the fallen birth rate working through our schools those numbers
1282. 02:24:39 are significant aren't they what was it how many primary schools did we say was it 19 primary schools we
1283. 02:24:45 could fill with a level of surplus places 19 medium-sized primary schools with a level of surplus 16
1284. 02:24:52 that's it thank you of a 200 place school which is quite a staggering figure but again that pupil
1285. 02:24:57 demography report that will come through for you in january again is you know a key document for you to
1286. 02:25:02 understand the scale of the issue okay thank you now i'm going to move on to the recommendations i'm
1287. 02:25:08 going to take them separately because i think the first two are quite uncontroversial and i think there's
1288. 02:25:14 been a challenge on the third one which we might need a little bit more discussion on so if we move
1289. 02:25:19 to recommendation number one to review the report the level of school reserves as they are at the 31st of
1290. 02:25:25 march 2026 an overview of school financial position we got a mover for that councillor evans seconder
1291. 02:25:33 councilor mcquist all those in favor that looks unanimous um councillor crease can correct me but my
1292. 02:25:48 understanding i think i got it down if you want me to read out so recommendation two is that a letter
1293. 02:25:54 is sent to us government on behalf of the committee to request further funding to be allocated specifically
1294. 02:25:59 for education for all pupils okay do we have a with the added bit including alm okay can i suggest
1295. 02:26:10 something added to that um i i support it in principle but councillor priest might say this that
1296. 02:26:17 actually we write the letter to welsh government and we say the extra funding is to target our schools
1297. 02:26:24 which are already in deficit and are sinking for into further deficit which is having an impact on
1298. 02:26:30 schools and on officer um officer time because we're devoting more time because more schools are
1299. 02:26:36 going into deficit so i don't know if council of moose will take that the only problem that we've got
1300. 02:26:43 we have got a large number of schools about to go into deficit so if we make that statement that only
1301. 02:26:50 the ones in deficit are then targeted you will miss out on the ones that that's why i'm saying that it
1302. 02:26:57 needs to come to the budget to be then sensibly divided by our education department not for us to
1303. 02:27:05 specify that through a fair and transparent funding formula i think so you know that's that's the issue
1304. 02:27:12 isn't it i i understand where councilman mcquist is concerned about how do we manage this risk but we
1305. 02:27:18 would want the schools to be treated equitably through an agreed and published funding formula so i
1306. 02:27:25 my professional view is it would need to be with for all schools but i i understand why you were coming
1307. 02:27:31 from council mcquist i'm sure maybe if it if it assists when we draft the letter we will refer to
1308. 02:27:39 what what we usually do is draft elective school but refer to the discussion that's been ongoing which
1309. 02:27:44 has resulted in this recommendation being made and this request being made so there will be um within
1310. 02:27:50 the letter we will you know mention school deficits and how this has come about that the committee was
1311. 02:27:56 considering the report on school we uh are we happy with that yeah okay that second recommendation
1312. 02:28:04 proposed by council of priests we got seconder capital lister either any abstentions that's carried
1313. 02:28:29 the report on the other hand so i think we can do that um if we can move on to the agenda uh the third recommendation
1314. 02:28:34 um and that was that the committee supports a zero reduction to the education budget and support an increase
1315. 02:28:42 to the education budget for 20 27 28. and if i can ask councillor priest to come in there
1316. 02:28:49 yeah i think we can reword that um i think we need to the committee would recommend to the cabinet
1317. 02:29:02 to be mindful of our discussions today regarding the deficit in schools and the potential deficit into
1318. 02:29:11 further schools when they are looking at the budget for next year we'll change it to that and i think
1319. 02:29:19 that would mean that other people would be able to vote for this thank you so sorry so it would be
1320. 02:29:25 that the committee that the committee recommends to cabinet um that it is mindful of school deficits
1321. 02:29:33 when considering the education budget for 27 28.
1322. 02:29:37 yeah right um we've had that proposed by councillor priest do we have a seconder
1323. 02:29:51 councillor mackie all those in favor carried i can't see i think that was unanimous
1324. 02:30:05 if we can move on to the next agenda item the corporate risk register
1325. 02:30:09 yeah sorry to interrupt you uh i'm gonna have to leave uh the meeting uh just a bit of granting up but i may be able to rejoin later
1326. 02:30:16 okay thank you very much councillor lloyd thanks to him so um who's introducing this report
1327. 02:30:31 the corporate risk register should i pick this one up then
1328. 02:30:41 probably put the microphone back on so it's on the it links very much to the previous item on school
1329. 02:30:50 balances so the education and youth portfolio has one risk on the corporate risk register it is rated as a
1330. 02:30:57 red risk um and it is r e y zero one and the title of that is the financial viability of schools and as
1331. 02:31:07 you can see it does have a very high risk rating currently on the scoring matrix of 25.
1332. 02:31:14 so all of the discussion that you've just talked about the previous item clearly articulates why it is a
1333. 02:31:18 significant risk on the corporate risk register um and we've tried through the discussions to
1334. 02:31:23 indicate to you the mitigations that as a portfolio team and the finance team we have in place to help
1335. 02:31:29 schools manage that risk as best they can within the resources that they have available so i don't
1336. 02:31:35 know that i can say much more than that other than if there are any other questions in relation to this
1337. 02:31:39 that we haven't discussed already deal for david suggestion the councillor mackie made so i'll if
1338. 02:31:49 there's no other um speakers i'll open this briefly up to the floor i think it's covered
1339. 02:31:59 so if we've got no speakers to move to the recommendation so that's to acknowledge the risks
1340. 02:32:04 on the corporate risk register and be assured that mitigated actions for each risk are adequate to
1341. 02:32:09 manage the risk we have a proposer council priest council mckewan all those in favor that's unanimous
1342. 02:32:18 i believe we're trying to get uh the equivalent officer from denbush to come online
1343. 02:32:45 right okay okay if um if members are minded we'll move on to the agenda item and if the gentleman from
1344. 02:32:55 um denbush is able to attend or if we can carry on right dale kadairith shall i start this report
1345. 02:33:06 very much dear so committee will know that we've we've had a report recently on the development of
1346. 02:33:14 the archive project this report is to bring a particular matter to your attention that will
1347. 02:33:20 be going forward for cabinet's consideration so i want to be quite brief here if i may so i think
1348. 02:33:27 everybody is comfortable with the purpose of the joint archive project with denbush county council and the
1349. 02:33:32 statutory requirements that we have to maintain the public record and the challenges that both
1350. 02:33:37 councils face in terms of the current buildings that our archives occupy the fact that they are full
1351. 02:33:43 they are not fit for purpose and um you know are posing a risk in terms of our execution of our statutory
1352. 02:33:50 duty and protecting the public record so as a result of that you will know that for a number of
1353. 02:33:55 years now we have been progressing successfully to date i'm going to keep touching wood through the
1354. 02:34:00 process with the national lottery heritage fund to apply for a significant amount of funding that
1355. 02:34:07 would be supported as well by a financial contribution from both french county council and dempshire county
1356. 02:34:11 council to create a brand new state-of-the-art net zero carbon in operation um archive building for
1357. 02:34:20 both services adjacent to theatre fluid on the county hall site a real investment uh in a fantastic
1358. 02:34:26 facility that obviously will enable both councils to exercise their functions but i think as well be an
1359. 02:34:32 amazing tourist attraction too so the report i know is quite complex but i think what i'm going to do
1360. 02:34:39 is i am going to take you to 2.03 in the report if i may because that's that's the nub of the issue as
1361. 02:34:48 we stand at the moment so you will know we've been working through the various areva stages in terms of
1362. 02:34:52 uh design development to get to a point of cost certainty we're not quite there yet but it won't
1363. 02:34:59 be long before we are but based on all of our current costings and projections at this moment we believe
1364. 02:35:08 we have an uncovered gap um of just over 300 000 pounds on the project overall so what we're asking for
1365. 02:35:18 of cabinet and for you to comment on today is an in principle approval that if we can't find that money
1366. 02:35:27 by either you know nailing down the costs on the project or through additional fundraising um or any
1367. 02:35:34 further grants that both flintshire and debbisher county councils would by a small amount increase
1368. 02:35:40 their capital contribution to the project we're hoping we don't get to that point we're hoping that
1369. 02:35:45 through all the work that we're doing around developing that cost certainty that we don't
1370. 02:35:49 get to this point but at this moment we do have this gap and we are transparent with the national
1371. 02:35:54 heritage lottery that we have this gap and what they are seeking for because they are now at the
1372. 02:36:00 critical stage of evaluating our final application for the bid so we've submitted our final uh project
1373. 02:36:09 for the delivery phase of the funding to actually enable us to get spades in the ground
1374. 02:36:14 we're anticipating having a decision from the national lottery in early december but we need to give the
1375. 02:36:22 lottery funders assurance that both councils have acknowledged that there is this gap and that we will
1376. 02:36:26 underwrite that gap if we're not able to close it by any other means and that's a really important
1377. 02:36:32 factor for us to be able to give the lottery fund that assurance we are maxing out what we can apply
1378. 02:36:39 from the national lottery heritage fund we are maxing out any grants that we can find particularly from
1379. 02:36:46 welsh governments as i say we're using fundraising opportunities as well to try but we need we need to
1380. 02:36:52 have that gap underwritten rod is there anything that i've missed that you would like to say so thank
1381. 02:36:58 you thank you claire so so just just to recap so we we have appointed external consultants to
1382. 02:37:03 basically look at what those funding opportunities are across wales the purpose is that they will look at
1383. 02:37:09 what those various pots are from welsh government and other voluntary sectors the other part which which
1384. 02:37:14 claire has mentioned but i wanted to mention is is that we're looking at the constitution of the joint
1385. 02:37:20 archives team after in terms of how can it draw down additional funding in its current composition
1386. 02:37:26 so i think as claire said there's an additional ask uh up to underwrite 169 000
1387. 02:37:32 uh but it's on the proviso that we can look at alternative fundings to match match that gap and
1388. 02:37:38 support the project going forward i've got councillor eastwood cabinet member
1389. 02:37:46 dr cadarys it's just the additional point in relation to 2.03 that is an indicative figure so um because not
1390. 02:37:54 all the um contracts have come back in we we haven't got a definitive figure yet on what actually the gap would be
1391. 02:38:02 um which is why this is an in in principle approval once we have the definitive figure that will come back to scrutiny and before cabinet
1392. 02:38:14 for ultimate approval so this is just an in principle one with an indicative figure and another report will be coming back in
1393. 02:38:23 when we've got the final approved figure so you're not committing 100 000 now councillor palmer thank you chair
1394. 02:38:37 in my role as a captain member for the assets i visited the the archive center in hardle and i was absolutely
1395. 02:38:45 amazed at the artifacts and the documentation not honestly i went to the top floor and were all around
1396. 02:38:53 it but even walked on the flat roof and the the amount of stuff that's in there is is amazing and it would be
1397. 02:39:01 a travesty if we if we lost it and in this current position that could quite easily happen the stage of the building
1398. 02:39:08 uh councilor mackie thank you right um i just want to make sure i've got this right so if we don't
1399. 02:39:19 guarantee this funding does it mean that the national lottery may not provide their funding and if that's
1400. 02:39:26 the case what we've already spent money on this project so we we'd effectively be putting if we don't
1401. 02:39:34 to prove this we're effectively putting everything we've spent at risk now you don't tell us what that
1402. 02:39:41 amount actually is and where we're up to and all that so okay right that's my first question i've got
1403. 02:39:47 lots of nods so yes we're putting up the actual risk here is a very considerable sum that we've already
1404. 02:39:54 spent you know we could be left with half a building or whatever right that's the first thing now my second
1405. 02:40:01 thing now my second point concerns the building in Harden because it's really really interesting to
1406. 02:40:06 go around there I'm not suggesting for a minute that you would want to make reuse of the chairs
1407. 02:40:11 because as I remember most of them were broken but the easy chairs and so on I meant right the
1408. 02:40:18 amazing I still have them right but they've got a lot of kit in that building to keep the stuff
1409. 02:40:24 safe haven't they they've got huge canisters of gas to uh to suppress any fires and they've got
1410. 02:40:33 special kit in order to uh detect water if there's leaks and the stuff is being wet um I wondered if
1411. 02:40:42 that had any residual value uh at all and if it might be uh say moved to the new building but say
1412. 02:40:52 in half the building or something and I was all I also wondered about the building itself in Harden
1413. 02:40:59 um how it came to be there uh no sorry I know how it came to be there was the vicarage um how it came
1414. 02:41:07 into the county's ownership how that came there is is it specifically there you know for the repository
1415. 02:41:15 uh because it might have been and therefore is that residual value something that we could
1416. 02:41:21 do here mark for this if that came about I'm getting lots of nods you does that mean you know
1417. 02:41:28 the answer I can bring Rod in absolutely thank you cancer I I think go back to your first question
1418. 02:41:37 so the risk the risk is the loss of the 7.3 million from the heritage lottery fund so at the moment
1419. 02:41:44 of Flincher really is getting the benefit of 12.5 million pounds with a contribution of 3.1 so so
1420. 02:41:50 the risk on the table is that we lose that that 7.2 million and the project stalls it's as simple as
1421. 02:41:56 that I think because the council is underwriting that and the risk is you you lose that grant in terms in
1422. 02:42:06 terms of Harden building just just a very quick recap so it was transferred to Flincher County Council
1423. 02:42:11 in 1953 it was owned by the Church of England so we are currently in conversations with the church
1424. 02:42:17 around a potential disposal uh because there will be restricted covenants so we're in conversation with
1425. 02:42:23 that at the moment the capitalist seat is not played into any of our figures so so so we take it in year
1426. 02:42:32 as and when we get it I suppose it's not ring fenced but we do through transformation have a really
1427. 02:42:39 robust program now for disposals so we're pushing disposals we've put nearly 3.2 million pounds in
1428. 02:42:44 this year so so again that's another option that we can consider in terms of what's in the building
1429. 02:42:50 realistically it's over time and that time is gone so the new building will have a fully integrated
1430. 02:42:57 fire alarm system for our firewalls sprinklers but you can't have that in the suppository so it's it's a
1431. 02:43:04 whole new technology and the benefit with the building is it's net zero so there's PV on the
1432. 02:43:09 roof whereas in the existing building there's probably anywhere up to a million pounds of
1433. 02:43:14 maintenance wanted on it plus it's not accessible there's no access facilities and in terms of its
1434. 02:43:20 location for the public it's really difficult to get to capsule Mackie briefly could we put this in the
1435. 02:43:30 recommendation that that there is consideration of that building did you say we could earmark it for
1436. 02:43:38 possibly offsetting this cost we don't ring fence capital receipts count we do not ring fence count
1437. 02:43:46 capital receipts counselor no we don't it will be it will form part of a process as part of the
1438. 02:43:53 development of the capital program which could conceivably conceivably be used as part of those
1439. 02:43:59 discussions to offset but we cannot we cannot commit money that we don't have that's not in the bag to
1440. 02:44:05 a project that we aren't signed up to at the moment chief yeah so in a nutshell I hope you are assured
1441. 02:44:14 that the potential that we might be asking the council to underwrite a hundred and seventy thousand
1442. 02:44:20 pounds which would be our contribution is levering in millions and millions of pounds worth investments
1443. 02:44:27 and it's just because we are at that critical stage when we when we present the figures to the national
1444. 02:44:32 heritage lottery they want to see that our books are going to balance on this project and at the moment
1445. 02:44:37 we have this slight discrepancy so that's why we're asking for the in principle decision we will
1446. 02:44:43 communicate that to the lottery and hopefully that then gives them the assurance that you know if if we
1447. 02:44:48 get to this point after all of the value engine and everything's been done the councils both councils are
1448. 02:44:52 prepared to cover that very small gap and I'm going to leave the last word to Rod but I'm conscious we've got
1449. 02:44:56 Craig Barry this service manager on the screen so if there's anything specific that Craig needed to add
1450. 02:45:01 as well if you can come in thank you chair so just to add now so in terms of planning so the project goes
1451. 02:45:08 in for planning planning committee on the 8th of October again we've been working closely with our
1452. 02:45:13 colleagues in planning around the schemes we've done a consultation the documents what the building looks
1453. 02:45:18 like the themes and again it's really interesting because where it's going to sit next to the theatre the
1454. 02:45:22 two complement themselves so again if you had if you were showing a production about world war one
1455. 02:45:28 the opportunity then is to present some of the archives that are presented locally on world war one
1456. 02:45:32 so the synergies are massive and that's really what's attract the heritage lottery because they seldomly fund
1457. 02:45:39 new build buildings and this is what's significant about this project thank you chair
1458. 02:45:44 it is it's you also councilor councilor Evans no thank you chair uh you have to forgive me that um
1459. 02:45:55 obviously there's a late substitute to this committee today I haven't had a chance to read the 80 pages
1460. 02:46:01 of this particular document but I did visit the Harden records office a good few years ago and I remember
1461. 02:46:07 seeing rooms full of boxes and boxes stacked high um and you know they were telling me how we're trying to
1462. 02:46:14 digitize everything as much as they can so that just quick question is this new building capacity wise
1463. 02:46:22 what's the lifetime expectation of that as a records office so in terms of the lifetime the project is 50
1464. 02:46:31 years so when the building is completed we'll have a lease for the building for 50 years in the design
1465. 02:46:39 at the back of the building there's also provision for an extension so doing if we need growth over that period
1466. 02:46:45 we've got a footprint that will accommodate that growth the reality is it's probably for 60 70 80 years
1467. 02:46:51 in in in effect but the program is for 50 years and that's what the funders are asking for in terms of the designs
1468. 02:46:58 the net zero and the model of building
1469. 02:47:00 that's what we're doing so sorry just to add to the point counselor there will be an increased digitization of
1470. 02:47:08 information within there because lots of it you can't access easily so there's a there'll be a project
1471. 02:47:14 following on to digitize more information and and a platform within that facility to view a lot of digitized records
1472. 02:47:21 and online as well just to increase and open up access to uh to records that people probably haven't seen
1473. 02:47:28 for a long long time okay is there any further questions from members yeah greg if you got anything to uh
1474. 02:47:42 anything to say no it's been covered really well by uh rod and claire um just to provide some
1475. 02:47:49 assurance assurance that we are really working hard with our fundraising consultant to try and identify
1476. 02:47:57 other sources of foreign to bring into the pot and and reduce any risk of asking any more money from
1477. 02:48:04 council so we're working really hard on that and we'll hopefully update very soon on that okay thank you
1478. 02:48:13 in that case if we move on to the recommendation that a member's agree in principle to provide
1479. 02:48:18 additional funding subject to the further reports to cabinet following determination of the external
1480. 02:48:24 funding applications and clarification of the amount required proposal counselor mcguin seconder
1481. 02:48:31 counselor uh claydon all those in favor i think that's unanimous thank you very much members for a very uh
1482. 02:48:45 a very um constructive meeting but obviously held on a day of a great deal of sadness
1483. 02:48:52 for many of us councilor mackie very quickly i would like to congratulate you on your first meeting
1484. 02:48:58 as our chair thank you very much it's been very good and it wasn't easy um i'm i'm simply presiding
1485. 02:49:07 over the meeting councillor mackie i'm not chair of the meeting councillor mackie i'm not chair of the
1486. 02:49:09 Thank you.