AI-generated transcript — it may contain errors; the recording is the authoritative record.

1. 00:00:05 Good afternoon pronounced all members welcome to this meeting of the social and healthcare
2. 00:00:09 overview and scrutiny committee um just uh members sorry uh we've begun the meeting now um
3. 00:00:17 yeah just as some housekeeping before we get started with the agenda i have been called to an
4. 00:00:22 emergency meeting at 4 p.m um so if the meeting is still ongoing at that point um i will hand over
5. 00:00:29 to my vice chair councillor koppel who will share the rest of the meeting um yeah until whenever
6. 00:00:36 it goes on until um so agenda item one is apologies for absence thank you chair we've had one
7. 00:00:46 substitution councillor ryan mckewan for councillor gina madison and councillor christine jones sends
8. 00:00:52 her apologies thank you thank you margaret i know we've got councillor paul johnson here to represent
9. 00:00:59 the cabinet um agenda item two is declarations of interest including whipping declarations would
10. 00:01:05 any members like to make any declarations can't see anybody indicating agenda item three is minutes of
11. 00:01:14 the previous meeting which took place on the 3rd of september and they are on pages five to eight
12. 00:01:20 so i'll look to members to if they've got any concerns or would like to make any suggestions on
13. 00:01:25 the minutes or i look for a mover for the minutes as a record councillor mckewan do i have a seconder
14. 00:01:33 councillor lister all those in favor that's carried any against nope any abstentions okay yep that is
15. 00:01:44 carried um agenda item four urgent matters as agreed by the chair there aren't any and so we'll move on
16. 00:01:51 to agenda item five which is forward work program and action tracking and that starts at page nine
17. 00:01:55 so hello to margaret for this thank you chair so the um first item i'd like to bring to your attention
18. 00:02:03 is the open forum that we've got on the second of november at 11am and that's with betsy could
19. 00:02:10 well at university health board and the session is intended to give councillors an opportunity to
20. 00:02:15 meet with members of the local health board senior team to discuss current issues and future plans and
21. 00:02:21 to raise any points of interest or concern to the communities that you represent it won't be um to
22. 00:02:29 ask specific questions about individuals but if you do have any areas of um concern or interest that you
23. 00:02:36 want them specifically to look at then if you could email me by return please that would be really useful
24. 00:02:42 but i do hope you will all as members of this committee be able to attend because it's a really
25. 00:02:46 good opportunity to meet with the senior officers of our local house board thank you so moving back to
26. 00:02:53 the forward work program the next meeting is on the 30th of november um and then going sort of right
27. 00:03:00 through to the end of the of the um municipal year we've um as you all know we have an action on the action
28. 00:03:08 tracking around adding the the priorities into the forward work program and i'd just like to hand over to
29. 00:03:16 craig we have all had a piece of paper with some information on it and craig will just um lead us
30. 00:03:22 through that thank you thank you margaret can i confirm that people online have had a copy margaret
31. 00:03:30 i have emailed it to you margaret about 20 minutes ago so um for those of you online forgive me
32. 00:03:42 um margaret will just send a copy of this so you can see what i'm referring to and what i'm very keen to do
33. 00:03:50 um and suggest to committee is what we've done previously is that our forward work program and the
34. 00:03:57 matters that are presented to you um are very much aligned to our priorities so we've got finite
35. 00:04:05 resources every year we do a piece of work with you where we suggest priorities we take them out for
36. 00:04:12 consultation through the director's annual report and and then we produce an annual report which was
37. 00:04:18 produced in july and went public what this document does because the annual report is a lengthy chunky
38. 00:04:24 document is on one page sets out the priorities that we've committed to this financial year and we've
39. 00:04:33 put those into five headings passion for practice supporting independence care closer to home digital
40. 00:04:41 and developing a sustainable market by the end of the year when we come and do the um next annual report
41. 00:04:50 we'll report on progress of all of these areas but the areas that i've highlighted in yellow
42. 00:04:57 are areas that i would suggest that scrutiny may want to consider asking for specific reports to come during the
43. 00:05:06 financial year and as part of the forward work program and what has guided my recommendations for your
44. 00:05:14 consideration are the recommendations that ciw have made as part of their inspections record reports and
45. 00:05:23 pieces of work that take forward safeguarding practice and pieces of work that relate to demand
46. 00:05:31 management and where we might need to change our offer our approach to enable us to meet more on the demand
47. 00:05:37 and complexity of need areas that relate to budget and budgetary pressures and the last one around
48. 00:05:45 quality assurance and as knowing and being able to demonstrate the so what we're doing all of this
49. 00:05:52 work but actually are we assured of the quality and the performance that's being delivered so if i and
50. 00:05:58 if i take it in the first um column passion for practice so the first one that's highlighted as
51. 00:06:06 yellow is would be a report on our performance and quality framework so we're doing a piece of work
52. 00:06:12 looking at performance and quality and particularly how we bring in user voice and daily lived experience
53. 00:06:19 into our reports so i think it's important that members scrutinize that are we setting the right
54. 00:06:25 framework and will that get to the heart of what matters and then the next one identify and implement
55. 00:06:32 learning from safeguard reviews and we do know that we have particularly uh coming up a very high
56. 00:06:39 profile case that's already in flintcher relating to the death of a child and there will be reports on
57. 00:06:47 that and that will go into the public arena but i would imagine you as scrutiny will want to have some
58. 00:06:52 assurance about learning where there have been missed opportunities what we're doing and what we have done
59. 00:06:58 around that the second one is supporting independence so um under therapeutic model and people may recall
60. 00:07:09 this year we have had grant funding for multi-systemic therapy providing specific therapy for children where
61. 00:07:18 there are family issues relating to abuse and neglect that grant funding comes to an end on the 31st of
62. 00:07:25 march it gets significant and positive outcomes so we have just commenced a piece of work looking at
63. 00:07:33 what's the learning from that review and where do we go next so there's no money but actually how do we
64. 00:07:39 embed some of the principles and learning so we thought we need to bring a report about what we've learned what
65. 00:07:46 we reflected and what next and the next one i think is really important often you will um hear us talking about
66. 00:07:56 waiting lists and one of the things that criw said to us in adult services is that we need a consistent
67. 00:08:03 and systematic approach to managing waiting lists so it is the case that there are different waiting approaches in different teams
68. 00:08:12 and so karen and her managers are working on a an approach that's consistent that isn't just about time served on a waiting list
69. 00:08:22 but also bring some and rationale for prioritization and ranking and but again we'd want to bring that for scrutiny
70. 00:08:30 and so let me make sure that no one none of us want waiting lists but where there are waiting lists people we're really transparent about where people are sitting and we're really
71. 00:08:40 transparent about where people are sitting on that waiting list why what criteria we've applied and that we can understand and do more regular system reports to you about what are the state of waiting lists are they increasing are they decreasing what are the drivers behind that
72. 00:08:58 and the last one in supporting independence is a piece of work that we are currently consulting on which is a choice policy so that balances an individual's
73. 00:09:09 and right for an assessment and for us to meet the outcomes that we've assessed as being eligible
74. 00:09:17 but also recognizing and that sometimes people we we are able to make an offer to people but sometimes people want a different offer and where
75. 00:09:29 does our line of meeting statutory responsibility align to individual choice and how we manage those through so again
76. 00:09:38 before we implemented that policy what we would like to do is come to you with the outcome of the consultation
77. 00:09:45 with a full integrated impact assessment and thrush that out and before we implement
78. 00:09:53 the last column care closer to home and mark halt has been doing a piece of work about the strategic
79. 00:10:00 direction of in-house services this is actually already on the forward work program when i double checked
80. 00:10:06 and i think it's important that we're setting out a vision for um what do in-house services look like
81. 00:10:12 we've now opened t croisati people will know we've got at least gwen in hollywell which is a very good
82. 00:10:20 care home for older people but that building potentially is at the end of its life cycle so we
83. 00:10:26 need to be thinking around what does flinch want for our next iteration of residential care supported living etc
84. 00:10:34 and the next one is work and we want to bring some transparency and overview to you around some of the
85. 00:10:42 work we're doing locally and regionally and nationally around continuing health care which is for adults
86. 00:10:49 and where there is a joint responsibility for funding between the nhs and ourselves continuing care is
87. 00:10:57 the children's version of that and section 117 relates to aftercare services for people who have had and
88. 00:11:06 fall into specific mental health legislation and the last one on that column is explore the feasibility
89. 00:11:13 of a family hub we are in the process of developing a detailed options appraisal about the potential of
90. 00:11:20 seeking grant funding to develop a family hub and it's no secret we are looking at the site the old
91. 00:11:26 croissati care home in flint and how that could be repurposed for a good social care value again once we've
92. 00:11:34 developed those options we'd like to bring them forward to you the next set around digital support the
93. 00:11:41 first is you'll be aware we're implementing mosaic which is the it system that will replace parrots
94. 00:11:47 we want to bring a report to let you know where things are up to and the implementation plan and
95. 00:11:53 the training and support plan and then the next there's two areas and we are actively looking at
96. 00:12:01 opportunities for ai and where i i can appropriately support our practice and support potentially more
97. 00:12:09 people to live independently at home we gave a commitment that we would bring any
98. 00:12:14 two scrutiny reports around ai before we do implementation so we thought it's important to
99. 00:12:21 let you know where we're up to and what the findings are and then last column and the first is reviewing
100. 00:12:29 our structure to provide service resilience and reduce agency costs there are some areas in adult
101. 00:12:35 services but we will be looking next year next calendar year very early on and to do a whole scale review
102. 00:12:43 and restructuring children's services and we'll be starting to do some engagement work in january
103. 00:12:51 the next one is review our approach to section five processes so that means under section five the
104. 00:12:59 whale safeguarding procedures there is a process that we follow where there are allegations against people
105. 00:13:07 in a position of trust and we see a high number which we see as positive because it means that people are aware of the process
106. 00:13:13 aware of the procedures and on the first of july those national procedures were updated and so we're doing some work around
107. 00:13:23 updating to ensure we've got a local process and procedure that bridges that gap between national policy and procedures and what we do locally so and we'd like to bring our work to bring our work to the
108. 00:13:37 work and we do have a lot of section five live work happening at the moment and we are building in
109. 00:13:44 some lessons learned reviews so that will also inform practice what we've learned and the policies and procedures going forward
110. 00:13:54 and the last one is you're well familiar of the not-for-profit legislation that comes in in 2030
111. 00:14:01 and we'll see this year for the first time every local authority has to produce a sufficiency plan
112. 00:14:07 and that plan sets out the local authority what what provision is needed based on our forecasting for
113. 00:14:14 residential care and fostering care and support for edge of care to keep children and in the right place
114. 00:14:21 supported through the right placement and so sarah and her team are busy writing that placement strategy
115. 00:14:30 and we'd like to bring that for review so i'm not i know not all the power priorities are highlighted
116. 00:14:36 but that they're the ones that we would suggest for you to we would want to draw your attention to
117. 00:14:43 that we think are particularly important for um member scrutiny and but the full list is there you choose what you want
118. 00:14:52 thank you craig thanks so yeah so we've got um a lot to think about there so um i see councillor market
119. 00:15:06 if i just can i just go through the action tracking and then we'll take questions thank you so just just
120. 00:15:11 one at the end of the um uh the action tracking is the whistleblowing policy that did go to the
121. 00:15:17 governance and audit committee i did circulate an email round to keep you informed and it's going to
122. 00:15:24 the constitution democratic services committee on the 5th of november so um hopefully that's we can close
123. 00:15:30 that one now if that's okay thank you i've got councillor claydon first thank you chair um just looking
124. 00:15:39 at this list i was wondering if we could also have as we go through the the different reports um some
125. 00:15:47 sort of indication of the extent or of it how strat whether it's um whether it it it's one that we
126. 00:15:57 have to do or one that we are choosing to do um so um that would be useful the other thing that has been
127. 00:16:06 said is um grants uh look we're looking for grants for some of these things it would be interesting to
128. 00:16:12 know whether the grants come with it um because um you know if we need we know that these things have
129. 00:16:20 to be done we have to go through them then you look at them from a financial point of view in a different
130. 00:16:26 way than if you know that there's a grant that's go goes with it and impossible more flexibility with
131. 00:16:33 with what we're going to do so it i think that would be very interesting to to have in in our reports
132. 00:16:39 thank you councillor claydon and i know certainly the ones that craig you put forward as highlights
133. 00:16:48 they're related to the ciw inspection aren't they so i think they are generally items that we would
134. 00:16:53 need to look at and discuss but i think it's you know i think on each report we'd expect there to be
135. 00:16:59 reference to any grant or budget implications anyway in particularly in the resource implication but do
136. 00:17:05 you suggest to maybe to go a bit further than that i i think basically when you're looking for grants you
137. 00:17:11 may not know whether you're going to get them or not but i think some sort of indication on that
138. 00:17:15 certainly would be quite useful um it we we know that this particular committee has such a
139. 00:17:22 a difficult budget that it would just give us more indication of whether we need to do it
140. 00:17:28 and if we don't need to do it is there a support for us somewhere that we can at least be looking for
141. 00:17:34 the people thank you i think um that prompts i don't like writing more reports but um i i think the
142. 00:17:44 reality as well is that um we have a significant grant called the icrf or if ircf acronyms but that is
143. 00:17:58 a grant that is used to fund multiple work streams both in adults and children's and social care that
144. 00:18:08 grant has been reviewed it comes to an end this financial year what we have been told by um welsh
145. 00:18:17 government is that the funding is there going forward but the terms of that grant are under review
146. 00:18:27 so given that that i would say is a cornerstone for a lot of these things that we will be reporting on
147. 00:18:35 i think it would be timely that when we have clarity about how much we're getting what the criteria is
148. 00:18:42 that we bring a report once we've worked through because what happens is if it follows the same
149. 00:18:50 pattern is that there's a regional allocation because it's for health and social care then there
150. 00:18:56 has to be agreement then there has to be trickled down to an east regional agreement an east agreement
151. 00:19:04 with health and social care and then a local arrangement so that once we've got clarity about
152. 00:19:11 what we've got what we are intending to use that grant for we bring that to you but i think most
153. 00:19:18 importantly what that means where that leaves some services unfunded and how we will manage that so
154. 00:19:25 we're really transparent because what we're likely to get is some positive noise about grant allocations
155. 00:19:31 and new money being pumped into the sector but also we know that that is recycled money and that we'll need
156. 00:19:39 to be honest and transparent about what that might mean for some of our services that we cannot
157. 00:19:46 prioritize and deliver as well so i i think with your agreement we'll build a report in around that rant
158. 00:19:54 okay yes that sounds very useful and it will help us a lot when we're looking at priorities and thank you
159. 00:20:02 when we're looking at priorities and thank you thanks councillor clayton councillor mackie
160. 00:20:11 thank you chair um just following on from the chief officer's comments about not liking to
161. 00:20:17 write reports particularly um what i liked about this concept is it was it's fitting in with the
162. 00:20:24 work that the department is doing uh this this idea and it's not asking them to go and charge over in
163. 00:20:33 another direction for a time um from what he said it looks as if this is the work they're doing so the
164. 00:20:40 report should come naturally and i think that is probably helping the department as much as we want
165. 00:20:47 to so that um they are just concentrating on what they see as important obviously if something crops
166. 00:20:53 up we can add that in at any time but i think that's a very um sensible way of approaching the
167. 00:20:59 whole problem in my opinion thank you thank you councillor mackie any other members have any
168. 00:21:07 questions or comments on the forward work program or action tracking so we'll move to the recommendations
169. 00:21:13 there's the usual three which is the committee consider the draft board work program and approve
170. 00:21:18 an amend as necessary that the facilitator in consultation with the chair be authorized to
171. 00:21:22 vary the forward work program and the committee notes the progress made in completing the outstanding
172. 00:21:27 action so do i have a mover for that councillor claydon seconder i've got councillor mackie all
173. 00:21:33 those in favor looks like everybody thank you all we will move on to agenda item six which is response
174. 00:21:44 to demand for hospital discharge um i'll hand over to karen chambers for this i'll just make a note that
175. 00:21:50 members might have noticed the table on page 19 hasn't shown up correctly in the agenda pack so
176. 00:21:55 you've all been given paper copies and hopefully those online have got copies sent to their emails
177. 00:22:00 with the figures in them i've got some nodding heads there so it looks like that's worked so i'll hand
178. 00:22:04 over to karen to introduce the report thank you chair and um thank you members for um bearing with us
179. 00:22:12 with the with the printing error there or the formatting error so the agenda item six is is an
180. 00:22:19 update on a number of of areas in terms of response to demand for hospital discharge and in an ever
181. 00:22:25 moving environment with your agreement i will use my um opportunity to introduce this report to just
182. 00:22:32 give you a couple of more recent updates um in terms of how the integrated discharge hub is progressing
183. 00:22:38 in particular because that's very much a live piece of work that's that's um referenced in this piece
184. 00:22:43 in this report so the report firstly talks about a a bit of a context in terms of previous reporting
185. 00:22:51 into committee structure around hospital discharge and that followed an order to general an order to
186. 00:22:58 general's review of discharge in in late 2023 the report seeks to summarize that there have been
187. 00:23:05 various points where updates have been reported and we were expected to expecting to continue to
188. 00:23:12 report into the this committee on the specific action plan resulting out of that order to general
189. 00:23:18 john general's review teeth in there has been a regional decision that that is not the um most
190. 00:23:25 pertinent way to progress not least because we have moved on so much in the last couple of years since
191. 00:23:31 the review and so the first point of information sharing is that there will be no more regional review
192. 00:23:38 reports coming back into this or any other committee into the local authority but please be assured that
193. 00:23:44 doesn't mean that any eye has been taken off the matter of hospital discharge if anything the
194. 00:23:50 scrutiny and the level of capacity that goes into this area continues to increase but in terms of providing
195. 00:23:56 that that that loop around that that that clarifies that there will be no further reports coming in
196. 00:24:02 specifically about that that piece of work in 2023 so the report then focuses on the current position or
197. 00:24:10 the more recently reported position in relation to hospital discharge and i refer to the table for
198. 00:24:15 example that you've had and shared with you um just before this report and this this committee started
199. 00:24:24 so what the numbers here show is on every on every third wednesday of every month there's a national
200. 00:24:32 census of hospital discharge whereby both the local authorities and the health board have to agree on a
201. 00:24:40 patient by patient basis exactly who is in hospital who doesn't need to be there in terms of their nhs
202. 00:24:46 care anymore and the reason that they're still in hospital or the primary reason as you would imagine
203. 00:24:52 there can often be a number of areas so we sit on a month by month basis and we validate on a patient
204. 00:24:58 by patient basis so what you've got presented there in paragraph 1.05 is a breakdown of that says there's
205. 00:25:08 on that date in june 2026 there were 92 patients who live in flintshire that were in any welsh hospital
206. 00:25:15 because that's the that's the extent of census and a breakdown there of the various codes or reasons for
207. 00:25:21 that for that delay now what what that means is for example if we look at social work allocation
208. 00:25:29 right at the top just as a there were 12 patients that on that day the primary reason that that needed
209. 00:25:36 to happen next was they were allocated social worker and quite often you will then see um we have to
210. 00:25:43 monitor internally they're allocated now what's the delay now what's the delay so from a management
211. 00:25:48 perspective perspective in house we can see how's that patient moves through their journey of being
212. 00:25:53 out of hospital what the today's reason for delay is and we can see that internally this is the validated
213. 00:25:59 on one day in that month okay so the report then goes on to describe i think that we've previously
214. 00:26:08 reported that we've got a specific discharge focused social work team that's the dart and most of the
215. 00:26:16 cases of discharge support are managed through them and also the report notes that we've had the
216. 00:26:24 additional funding through the pathway of care delay grant from the welsh government which has helped us
217. 00:26:30 to direct resources towards the areas where we have the most um need if you like primarily assessment
218. 00:26:39 capacity and also supporting the actual point of discharge the support that's available to the individual
219. 00:26:44 so in terms of what's new particularly in this report as opposed to an update on perhaps previously
220. 00:26:53 reported positions is the introduction of the integrated discharge hub and the report starts to refer to
221. 00:27:02 that in paragraph 1.10 and so what we have agreed on a north wales basis is in line with welsh government
222. 00:27:15 policy and also good practice from across the united kingdom that we were moving into a position of
223. 00:27:21 having an integrated discharge hub for one in each of the three sub-regions across north wales so when we're
224. 00:27:30 when we're referring to flintcher residents irrespective of which hospital you're in and this will
225. 00:27:37 eventually spread to out of area hospitals as well so the countess for example irrespective of which
226. 00:27:43 hospital you're in your discharge arrangements will be planned coordinated and seen through by an
227. 00:27:50 integrated discharge hub that's based in in physically based in the mylar hospital it's just
228. 00:27:57 it's just a physical base okay that will allow one team to look at all of our discharges across all of
229. 00:28:04 our hospitals and best best allow the management of the demanding capacity rather than in in a number of
230. 00:28:11 different places at the moment so there's a couple of changes from the information that's been shared in the
231. 00:28:16 report 1.10 talks about the first iteration of the hub starting on the 21st of september i can update members
232. 00:28:26 that that actually changed and it started last monday the 12th of october that was that was a local
233. 00:28:33 decision taken just to ensure that we had some points of preparation a little bit further advanced than
234. 00:28:40 than we'd we'd first anticipated so at this point in time we've got an integrated discharge hub that is
235. 00:28:48 operating out of the mylar for all of welsh flintcher patients in a welsh hospital we've also started the
236. 00:28:55 conversations with our colleagues in the countess of chester about what that means going forward for them
237. 00:29:00 as you can tell it's very early days we are working proactively and with a lot of um positiveness with
238. 00:29:11 colleagues around actually trying to make this work because we do see the the approach that we're looking
239. 00:29:18 to take as being one that does have the opportunity to make a difference for residents as well as having
240. 00:29:23 the the the decision making and the members of the different professionals in one room to decide
241. 00:29:30 what how can we best support this individual out hospital and how can we make that happen
242. 00:29:34 the other key change that will be coming as a result of this work is for patients that residents that go
243. 00:29:41 home on what is called pathway one that is to go home with the package of care they will have
244. 00:29:49 their assessment done once they're home so rather than a social worker needing to go to the hospital
245. 00:29:56 to undertake the full assessment we will be using much more comprehensive information coming from the
246. 00:30:02 hospital determine what's safe to get them home and a rapid assessment once they get home that is
247. 00:30:08 absolutely in line with the discharge to recover and assess principles set down by both uk and welsh
248. 00:30:15 government on the basis that most people do not present at their optimum in hospital in terms of
249. 00:30:22 what they're able to do for themselves at home so often been in a bed for a long period of time not
250. 00:30:28 necessarily doing things for themselves so what we do what the what the plan is in here is what do we
251. 00:30:33 need to do to get them safe home warm something to eat somebody coming in to see them some carers coming
252. 00:30:39 in to see them and then within a short period of days once they're home once they're in their own
253. 00:30:45 familiar surroundings once they are hoping to start to recover we hope from the what can be a fairly
254. 00:30:51 incapacitating period of time in hospital that's when we start to make our more detailed assessment
255. 00:30:57 about what somebody might need going forward so as you can imagine we're taking an increment
256. 00:31:03 incremental approach bringing people with us testing something kind of small and then scale and
257. 00:31:09 then moving forward so we're in quite a period of change at the moment and we started that process
258. 00:31:15 fully last well first part of that process fully last monday when we started the new integrated discharge
259. 00:31:21 hub so that's that's a narrative that updates the position that was correct at the time of writing this
260. 00:31:27 report um so um chair maybe that's a good point to open for questions or reflection on
261. 00:31:38 yeah thank you karen i've got councillor list to first thank you we're just arguing over
262. 00:31:49 who put my hand up first sorry i don't i don't don't know this is a very timely report um and i have some
263. 00:31:55 questions about it um and i'm thinking the the integrated discharge hub sounds like a great idea
264. 00:32:06 um i'm worried in practice how that works when you send someone home who maybe has um gone to hospital
265. 00:32:13 for some traumatic injury they've had an operation they're fit medically for discharge they go home
266. 00:32:19 those first few days are probably where you need the most care um just let's just say someone's had a
267. 00:32:25 hip replacement they're home and uh they're discharged and then someone is coming out that
268. 00:32:31 you know in within 24 hours to assess their need if there is then suddenly a need for equipment that
269. 00:32:36 they don't have at home um maybe short-term care to help them through the night if they live on their
270. 00:32:41 own how on earth is that like done at such short notice um i guess though those are my concerns it
271. 00:32:48 sound when i read it i was like oh it's a bit like when you have a baby and you go home and the midwife
272. 00:32:52 sees you straight away but obviously that comes that's that they have a lot bigger budget um to be
273. 00:32:58 able to to deliver that and make sure that everybody is seen within um 12 hours of discharge or whatever
274. 00:33:04 the threshold is so i'm just wondering how we can ensure that as a local authority that is done safely
275. 00:33:10 um and it's not oh let's get them home as quickly as possible and then oh there might not be the
276. 00:33:15 resource to see within that short time period and that that immediate going home is quite scary i
277. 00:33:21 imagine particularly for an elderly resident who's had had a fall um to be to be at home without
278. 00:33:28 potentially the equipment they need and the care they need so yeah i guess that's my question
279. 00:33:35 thank you councillor lister i think you've been in some of the meetings with us actually going through
280. 00:33:39 the detail of what this um what this work looks like so so the first thing the first thing to say is
281. 00:33:45 in terms of the the the work that we're doing we're we're supported by um a lady that's been brought
282. 00:33:52 in to help us with this program who has implemented this exact approach in other parts of the uk so
283. 00:33:57 we've got some we've got some though every system's different and our residents are our residents we have
284. 00:34:03 got some learned experience of implementing this similar approach that we've been able to benefit from
285. 00:34:08 in terms of responding quickly enough so the hub if if myself sarah and craig were the hub today and
286. 00:34:17 we were deciding that that we were supporting a resident home that is on the basis of having some
287. 00:34:23 really detailed information that has come from the ward to describe exactly the individual what they
288. 00:34:29 need what their functional support is etc etc and we're being scrupulous about if that information is not
289. 00:34:35 telling us what we need to do that then that goes back to the ward so that's the first thing second
290. 00:34:40 thing is if somebody is going home they won't go home until there is some care available for them over
291. 00:34:46 the first up until they've got an assessment so nobody will go home without a care plan in place what it
292. 00:34:53 will mean is for example we may on the point of assessment say an individual needs i don't know some
293. 00:35:02 some additional therapeutic input for example but in that first few days there will have been care providers
294. 00:35:08 going in making sure they've had something to eat making sure they're up dressed warm all of those
295. 00:35:15 tlc i suppose elements um to think about so though so nobody's going to go home without anything what they
296. 00:35:26 won't go home with is a social work assessment of what is needed so the care plan that's an initial one is
297. 00:35:35 is a it's not generic in as much as everybody will get the same but it will be based on the information that we've got from the
298. 00:35:43 in addition should there be any equipment requirements all of those things will need
299. 00:35:49 to be in place as well before the discharge happens as long as it's equipment that's deemed necessary for
300. 00:35:55 the discharge as opposed to in a week we think we think karen's going to have the strength to start
301. 00:36:02 doing a b and c we might get that equipment in in that period of time so there is we are all testing
302. 00:36:09 it we are all going to see what but what i would say is the level of scrutiny that we're putting
303. 00:36:15 is high and if we have any concerns about any patients number one we will go and still see them
304. 00:36:21 on the ward that there isn't a reason we can't actually do that but the majority of the majority
305. 00:36:28 of cases we don't believe that's going to actually have to happen but it is we are in a
306. 00:36:34 testing phase we are in a phase where we're looking to see what happens so i hope i've we've also got
307. 00:36:41 discharge to recover and assess um t2ra coordinators as we called as we call them they are new posts that
308. 00:36:49 we've brought into the into the team with the with the funding that was referenced earlier pathway of
309. 00:36:54 care grant they are the they're the ones that are going to be in the hub really doing the practical
310. 00:37:00 has anybody got the key is anybody going to turn the heating on it who's going to get some food
311. 00:37:05 they'll be doing that real practical for particularly for people who haven't got um spouse at home or a
312. 00:37:12 or a friend next door for example so there will be a a list of checks made if you like that says
313. 00:37:21 karen won't be going home until these things are in place um but it is the area it's the area that
314. 00:37:28 fundamentally is very different for us so the one that's exercised us a lot in the conversations that
315. 00:37:34 we've been having and can and will continue to do um but i think it's also correct to say we've balanced
316. 00:37:44 that with also the reality in our system at the moment that sometimes people deteriorate further in
317. 00:37:53 hospital even after our assessment so by the time they go home sometimes it isn't still absolutely
318. 00:38:00 optimized and what on this first phase the care will be provided by our in-house teams and they're
319. 00:38:07 very skilled and experienced in just going no karen needs more and they will do more they will do more
320. 00:38:15 they will get on the telephone they've got a safety net telephone number over the weekend or anything to
321. 00:38:19 phone if there's anything they're not happy with so we've put in we've we've put in what we can
322. 00:38:26 reasonably see as as controllable elements for individuals but we weren't starting from perfect
323. 00:38:34 before as well okay how does he were speaking then um so previously people have obviously been held in
324. 00:38:47 hospital because they're awaiting a package of care so has social services got a like is it commissioned
325. 00:38:54 care for for that interim period and then is that is that for x amount of time until you're able to get
326. 00:38:59 a more permanent package of care in um that was my first question yeah excellent question it's one of
327. 00:39:07 the it's one of the factors that myself and others are using to um temper um expectations if you like as a
328. 00:39:18 result of this work we have not got more community capacity than we have before we're moving the
329. 00:39:26 any assessment delays slightly along an individual's journey but then the amount of capacity in the
330. 00:39:31 community remains the same the the so so that remains the same that one of the things that we know has
331. 00:39:38 happened in other models that we've looked here is because of the more centralized way of looking at the
332. 00:39:45 whole demand for hospital discharge it has given partners a more focused view on what the actual
333. 00:39:52 number of hours is needed on a standard week to support people coming out of hospital when you look
334. 00:39:58 at it in the in the round and that although we can do that now it it's a bit more of a bitty
335. 00:40:06 so many different sites and coordinating areas so what what other areas have been able to do is say
336. 00:40:11 for example we need 300 hours a week on a classic week of domiciliary care support people to go
337. 00:40:17 home so that's a piece of work that i mentioned the regional coordinator lead is going to be doing
338. 00:40:24 alongside us so that that can help us to model our demand and capacity but you're absolutely
339. 00:40:29 right this is not going to change that the world in terms of the capacity at the moment
340. 00:40:34 with we're improving the parts of the journey that we can i think the other thing that um
341. 00:40:42 that is worth saying at the same time we're we're having more and more conversations with our um
342. 00:40:50 with the managers in the hospital that says if a patient comes into hospital today as a local
343. 00:40:55 authority we we currently retain or keep open a package of care for up to 14 days so if i go into
344. 00:41:03 hospital my care arrangement stays there ready in case i can go home within 14 days that's a good thing to do
345. 00:41:10 continuity of care but what that actually means in practice is if there's no way i'm going home in 14 days
346. 00:41:17 that that care has been held here for me when it really was needed for somebody else here so we always focus in our conversations about avoidance and reducing the demand etc this is another part that the hospitals can help us
347. 00:41:35 if they know somebody's going has gone into hospital they've got a package of care and there's no way clinically they're going to go home in 14 days if we get to know that early on we can release that capacity to support somebody else
348. 00:41:45 so whilst developing this work we're also looking at how we can have a better eye as a discharge hub
349. 00:41:52 on any potential capacity that we might be able to free up because sadly another patient who's in hospital is not going to be able to come home within 14 days or three days whatever's left every day every day is beneficial so it's this is bigger part of a bigger piece of work
350. 00:42:10 okay my final question then is what threshold is met for somebody to be eligible for this level of discharge kind of care if you like um because i i i can't imagine it's every single flinch a person coming out of hospital that that would need this but are we are we able to confidently say that we are reaching the people that do need it or is the bar set very high
351. 00:42:35 okay thank you so the long term or the longer term plan is that the integrated discharge hub will support anybody that needs any social care support on release from hospital discharge from hospital i should say please
352. 00:42:51 um so that's people going into care home etc i i think i said earlier on this is pathway one patient so that's if you're going back home with a domiciliary care of packet domiciliary package of care
353. 00:43:03 however for this first testing phase we've also said that the individual themselves must have mental capacity for example so that we can ensure that the individual is clear on what's happening they're comfortable with what's happening
354. 00:43:21 um but other than that we are if if you're going home you haven't had your package of care before or your needs have changed and we believe we can support you at home and that's the best place for you to be
355. 00:43:37 it's everybody on that pathway that we're trying however please please that's in terms of that's in terms of um the the longer term please also remember what i said was that we're only supporting people going home with our in-house
356. 00:43:51 team at the moment so actually if our in-house team can't support and we need to ask one of our partners in the independent sector at the moment we will still be going down and and seeing the patient and before that discharge happens just as we refine and build our confidence i think that's true to say we're all building our confidence in this space
357. 00:44:15 um and we can work with our in-house team who will just go and do what they need to do
358. 00:44:24 yeah but also i think just finally the position hasn't changed either if an individual
359. 00:44:30 in any way presents us unwell not not if the carer believes that this person is not well enough to be out of hospital
360. 00:44:40 pre pre-integrated discharge hub post-integrated discharge hub it's it's a it's a call back to the um
361. 00:44:47 health services isn't it so we remain in that position if if somebody goes home and the carer turns up they don't
362. 00:44:55 you know you don't look the right color your breathing doesn't seem right that's not a social services response that
363. 00:45:01 that is back on to 999 or the district nurse whoever is most appropriate at the time so answer your question
364. 00:45:10 thank you karen counselor mackie well thank you very much it's all starting to come together right okay
365. 00:45:18 um when i was on the community health council before it was slashed out and abandoned by the welsh
366. 00:45:25 government this was always an issue that was coming up time and time again uh because the hospitals used
367. 00:45:31 to quote a big number and then when i used to talk to social services staff they used to give me a
368. 00:45:36 different number because there were there were a hundred and something different categories and the
369. 00:45:42 hospital just looked at the top at the bottom and we looked at the individual categories and so on and
370. 00:45:47 so on right i have looked into this and i've looked at the audit report papers and so on it really
371. 00:45:54 worried me some of the stuff in here and i know i'm glad we're not using it now because this some of their
372. 00:46:00 their thing the the ideas that the audit people came forward has got comments like um where where
373. 00:46:11 such support is not in place at the time of discharge which is what you're saying is the case
374. 00:46:18 and that really worried me uh because um well first of all yes i agree that getting people out of
375. 00:46:28 hospital as quickly as we can is probably the best thing we can do generally because the longer you're
376. 00:46:34 in hospital for usually the worse you become and that doesn't sound right but it's a case um and yeah
377. 00:46:43 what worries me is anyone who's going to fall through the through the slots because there is a
378. 00:46:50 chance that somebody once somebody's out of hospital they're not in hospital there's nobody looking
379. 00:46:55 after them if for some reason that care doesn't work and we've not got it in place properly if something
380. 00:47:03 goes wrong somewhere then i can see that um but that that worries me and that's something that i need
381. 00:47:10 reassurance over probably um but as far as actually hearing that we are trying to get to a system where
382. 00:47:23 where people where the whole system is being treated as one thing one pathway uh which is clearly what we need
383. 00:47:34 because it's not working at the moment um i think that's good i think it's good that we are we are
384. 00:47:42 getting that way and it's clearly something that we have to go to but as i say my concern is that
385. 00:47:48 that that if you like that that long stop that we had before where only go home if we've got a package
386. 00:47:56 in place i don't i agree there's problems there at least we knew that person was being looked after
387. 00:48:02 and i'm just that worried that somebody might fall through the slots
388. 00:48:07 and thank you counsellor i think the so if you're in hospital now and you've had an assessment we we
389. 00:48:18 are discharging based on on an assessment but we are still needing to take checks to make sure that
390. 00:48:25 the provider is turning up at five o'clock and they can get in you know all of those things so we have to
391. 00:48:31 do that now and we'll still have to do that with with this system because we will have to make when
392. 00:48:38 we're what we're doing is taking out the detailed social work assessment out of the hospital and
393. 00:48:43 moving it into the community so but everything else about ensuring a safe discharge in terms of
394. 00:48:50 person can get home the person can have something to eat the person is going to be clean as i say that
395. 00:48:55 that that that initial support we will be as vigilant as as we have to be already the the the balance of
396. 00:49:08 of risk benefit is when this is working as we are working towards there will be a shorter period of
397. 00:49:17 time between the ward saying karen's ready for leaving today she needs support with this this this and
398. 00:49:23 this but she can do these things there'll be a shorter period of time to get that to get me home this is
399. 00:49:29 what we're this is what we're hoping for whereas actually what can happen at the moment is we
400. 00:49:36 there'll be description of what karen can and can't do today but i might not go home for another week
401. 00:49:44 and so sometimes please don't think i'm suggesting that this is the the panacea to everything because it
402. 00:49:52 clearly isn't but i think where where we've come in our journey of of needing to have reassurance and
403. 00:50:00 ask again and ask again is we've we've we've had to balance that there are risks in our current system
404. 00:50:08 and there are risks in a new system and we're balancing both all of the time but the people who are
405. 00:50:15 closest involved to this have patient person safety absolutely at the front of their of their minds um and
406. 00:50:28 we are having every conversation every interface we're doing every part of this piece of work with
407. 00:50:36 with that in mind and then because nothing can ever be perfect
408. 00:50:41 and when things don't go as we hoped what does the safety net look like so we've looked at it from from
409. 00:50:48 both approaches the numbers are still small at the moment in terms of those that we're able to look at
410. 00:50:53 and we are therefore going to be in a position of scrutinizing each case and seeing okay what
411. 00:50:59 did go well what did we what did we have to do differently um and when our colleagues across north
412. 00:51:06 wales start their their approaches in the next couple of weeks will get an even greater number of of um
413. 00:51:15 people to think about so yeah
414. 00:51:22 to me this sounds like communication is that the key to everything so the question is do we have that
415. 00:51:30 communication right i'd say i'd say there's probably three key parts of the communication first critical
416. 00:51:42 part of communication is what comes from the ward to the hub so that's the net paper stroke electronic
417. 00:51:51 transfer of care form that has been specifically written um using example spells well but they're made
418. 00:51:58 right for us to ask all the questions that the hub wants to know so the first part of the work has
419. 00:52:05 been when those start coming into the integrated discharge hub do they answer the questions and when
420. 00:52:10 they don't they go back so there's quite a lot of work that's going on with wards to support them
421. 00:52:16 that so that's the very critical first part communication second critical communication point is in
422. 00:52:21 the hub itself who was having the conversation about this person on paper can we support them to go
423. 00:52:28 home and in that what i'm hearing from the hub conversations last week is that they were very
424. 00:52:35 detailed they were well informed we actually had social worker occupational therapist physio nurse all
425. 00:52:41 in the room with access to different systems health systems so that if there were any questions they
426. 00:52:46 could have a have a look what i'm hearing from the ground is that those conversations were really good
427. 00:52:52 they actually there were people last week that they felt they were able to support on a journey to go
428. 00:52:58 home that potentially wouldn't have gone home before because the different professionals have said well
429. 00:53:03 actually we could try we can do this for this one person so actually although we're moving into a virtual
430. 00:53:09 hub and rather than a physical hub this week all of those professionals are still in every conversation
431. 00:53:17 so actually what it's looking like at the moment is what we'd hoped it happened is it would improve
432. 00:53:22 improve conversation at point of discharge so we'll continue to monitor that but so far so good the
433. 00:53:28 last point of communication then is between discharge hub and the provider and the individual yeah um so
434. 00:53:36 that's the that's the the that's the third point and the one that at this point in our implementation
435. 00:53:44 we've got the least real view on yet because people haven't got to that stage but what we are
436. 00:53:50 what we are doing is certainly in the early days the the provider will go out on the day of of discharge
437. 00:54:03 and the provider knows who they contact if anything isn't right and we've got a discharge to to recover and
438. 00:54:09 assess coordinator that can support with any additional practical arrangements that are needed so those are i think
439. 00:54:17 we're at three points of communication and we're at various points of testing so far
440. 00:54:25 councillor clay did thank you um i'm not sure whether my what i think has been answered but
441. 00:54:34 uh it's an interesting list of why people are waiting it doesn't tell you how long they'd waited in the past
442. 00:54:41 and now it's 48 hours you know whether that will you'll manage to do it or whether historically there's
443. 00:54:48 there's a problem in various it i'd be quite interested to find out perhaps later uh if there is um
444. 00:54:59 if there's areas where discharge is particularly difficult or particularly long so and whether we as
445. 00:55:06 a committee then need to look again at those areas because i think um the number of people is one thing
446. 00:55:12 but the length of time they wait is another as well so stats for that would be quite useful thank you
447. 00:55:21 councillor kate yes um the as as much as there is a focus on the reasons for delay and the numbers of delay
448. 00:55:28 bed days lost that's the term used and is is also something that's um reported it's it's validated once a
449. 00:55:37 month but not the way that we do it's very difficult to show by individual um resident we've we have our
450. 00:55:45 internal tracking system so for example if it's me today i wait four days for that two days for that
451. 00:55:50 and three days but we we can see that in our internal system in terms of the regional and the national
452. 00:55:56 approach to reporting it's the it's it's the total bed days lost based on today's
453. 00:56:07 discharge reason delay reason so yeah um to try and give you an example if a patient is recorded
454. 00:56:18 today as being discharged waiting a finance a financial decision let's just say and they've
455. 00:56:27 been ready to leave the hospital for 30 days it will say this person's been waiting for 30 days and the
456. 00:56:34 reason is a financial whereas actually they'll have been that'll have been chunked up over that 30 days
457. 00:56:40 our system is not um currently able to say out of a total of all the patients this month how many would
458. 00:56:48 how many days was lost as a reason of just this part of the code um so i think we could give you some
459. 00:56:56 more detail but our our systems currently can't report to the granularity that perhaps um we'd all
460. 00:57:05 like to see really um at the same time though perhaps it's worth saying we do however once once
461. 00:57:12 an individual is with us from a local authority perspective because because of course some of
462. 00:57:16 these codes are before they even come anywhere near us um we will know for example there are certain
463. 00:57:25 geographies this week where if you need a package of care and you live in those towns the capacity is
464. 00:57:31 lower and you're going to wait longer than in this area so we do have more once the delay delay reasons
465. 00:57:37 are with us we have got better oversight but those ones beforehand not so much so perhaps a conversation
466. 00:57:46 about um what we can provide and what we can't provide and would help to give you a little bit more
467. 00:57:55 detail um so yeah thanks karen yeah i do think that would be useful if we could get a bit more
468. 00:58:04 details i think what councilor fadman has asked for would be although obviously not possible at the
469. 00:58:08 moment would be incredibly useful for us as a committee so anything extra we can get would be good
470. 00:58:12 um councillor healy thank you chair welcome back um i understand you've given us a lot of details
471. 00:58:21 and i'm understanding it but there is still quite a lot of worries for me
472. 00:58:28 and my worries is it has to be crucial the person who put the package together
473. 00:58:37 to work entirely with a consultant with a nurse to know that patient totally because my worry as well
474. 00:58:46 is when the patient when patients are i'm talking from experience when patients are in hospital they
475. 00:58:53 want to get home i'm going home where i feel well or not and you're talking to somebody who's been in
476. 00:59:01 hospital and wanted to do that um and then they go home and when the patient is on their own at night
477. 00:59:10 at night at night and i repeat is the crucial time at night is when everything happens you could be okay in
478. 00:59:22 the day but at night something would happen so what do we put in place for the person who's living on their own
479. 00:59:32 for nights oh sorry thank you yes so we that's i suppose there's a couple of couple of points here firstly
480. 00:59:55 it's if in the hospital as part of the hospital initial admission night time needs are identified and i accept
481. 01:00:04 mission, nighttime needs are identified and I accept you're in hospital. But if the individual,
482. 01:00:07 for example, is very unsettled at night, needs support to use the toilet at night, these sorts
483. 01:00:12 of factors, that will be, that will come through on the, that will need to come through on the
484. 01:00:18 information that comes from the ward. And there are specific parts of the form which are focusing
485. 01:00:24 on nighttime needs, because as you've said, things can be different. People with some conditions
486. 01:00:31 can't sleep very well, or they become more confused at night, even if they've got capacity,
487. 01:00:35 still become a little bit more confused and disorientated at night, etc. So understanding
488. 01:00:40 what the support needed in the hospital is part of the consideration. At the moment, if somebody is
489. 01:00:49 going home with no support at home, they don't have anybody to help them at night,
490. 01:00:53 there isn't a nighttime domiciliary care service. That isn't something that we, that we have in
491. 01:00:59 place. So on those bases, and for those individuals, or if there's a query over that, that's when we have
492. 01:01:09 what we call a stepped, a pathway to step down bed available in one of our care homes, Marley Field,
493. 01:01:16 for example, Tee Crosetti. So if there's concerns about how is this individual going to be at night,
494. 01:01:20 are they going to be better at home, that's when we would use a pathway to bed, or one of the reasons
495. 01:01:26 we would use a pathway to bed. What that does is it allows the individual to hopefully have a better
496. 01:01:32 night's sleep, because they're not in a ward with 10 other people, where there's comings and goings,
497. 01:01:36 and all of those sorts of things that can disorientate. And actually, if we are thinking,
498. 01:01:41 that would be the only reason we don't think somebody could go home, we'll support them in a bed for a
499. 01:01:48 time to say, actually, no, Karen, Karen was much more settled once she was in a care home,
500. 01:01:53 we actually think she can go home now. So that would be a reason as well, to not go straight for
501. 01:01:57 a long term care bed. So we've got this sort of balance of, home first is our principle, if we can
502. 01:02:05 get somebody home, that's what we want. If we believe somebody isn't quite ready, or we might be
503. 01:02:09 able to achieve that, then we'll try on a pathway to, in terms of the nighttime support,
504. 01:02:17 I've mentioned, for example, we don't have, we don't have a top domiciliary care overnight.
505. 01:02:23 But the sorts of things that we can consider is whether there's any telecare that can help
506. 01:02:29 somebody. So actually, sometimes families are very concerned that their loved one is up and about at
507. 01:02:36 night, and they're therefore at risk. We can actually use some telecare to say, you know, they didn't get
508. 01:02:41 up at all. You're worried they're up and down and up and down. They went to bed at 10 o'clock, they didn't
509. 01:02:46 get up till seven o'clock the next morning. That was a better sleep than we had. So there's some telecare
510. 01:02:51 that we can do for that. So it's very individualized. But you are right, nighttime is, is when people can
511. 01:02:58 start to feel very uncomfortable, and not confident. And we have to try and think of that pre-admission,
512. 01:03:05 because our ability once you're out of hospital, in a non-24-7 environment, is limited to domiciliary
513. 01:03:14 care during the day.
514. 01:03:19 Thank you, Karen. I don't see any other members indicating. So we'll move to the recommendations.
515. 01:03:26 There's two in the report. The first one is that members note the discontinuation of the annual
516. 01:03:30 North Wales report following the Auditor General for Wales report 2023, and support the removal of
517. 01:03:35 the annual progress report from the forward work proven without site maintained through existing
518. 01:03:40 governance processes, and the members note and support the ongoing pressure to meet hospital
519. 01:03:44 demand and opportunities being taken to improve outcomes for flinch residents. So we have a mover
520. 01:03:49 for those, Councillor Mackie, Councillor Healy to second. All those in favour, that's everybody.
521. 01:03:59 Thank you. We will move on to agenda item eight, which is the corporate safeguarding policy.
522. 01:04:07 And I'll hand over to Chief Officer Craig. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I've missed number seven.
523. 01:04:13 Thanks for it. Yeah. Agenda item seven, report of the Public Service Ombudsman. Are we caring
524. 01:04:19 for our carers revisited? And we'll go back to Karen for this one.
525. 01:06:27 Chair, just to let you know, we can't hear anything online.
526. 01:06:33 Thank you, Councillor Buckley.
527. 01:06:35 Oh, no. Sorry.
528. 01:06:37 You just took the words out of my mouth.
529. 01:06:39 No, I'm not. Sorry, that's me not pressing that button again. I'm terribly sorry.
530. 01:06:47 What I've just been talking about is that the report is focusing on a report undertaken or
531. 01:06:55 a study done by the Public Service Ombudsman for Wales around the support that we offer to
532. 01:07:01 carers, informal carers in Flintshire.
533. 01:07:03 Following that report, an action plan or set of actions and recommendations was put forward
534. 01:07:10 to the local authority. With the exception of one of those actions, all of that work has
535. 01:07:15 been completed. There is one outstanding action which focuses on communication back with
536. 01:07:22 the carer further to an assessment. So at the moment, when an informal carer has had their
537. 01:07:30 needs assessed, they will get a copy of the assessment, which will include a summary of the
538. 01:07:37 needs that they still have, the outcomes they still need support with, and what provision will
539. 01:07:43 be put in place. The Ombudsman has indicated that in addition to that, the covering letter should
540. 01:07:51 summarise the pertinent points from that assessment. What we have reported back following
541. 01:07:58 governance and audit committee to the Ombudsman is that that one recommendation remains outstanding
542. 01:08:06 with us as a local authority. And the reason for that is that our current system would mean
543. 01:08:13 that that task can only be completed through a manual process. So that would put an additional
544. 01:08:20 piece of work on the assessor to be done. And being quite honest, we need that assessor to be going out and
545. 01:08:28 starting to support another individual because of the demands on time. So what we've indicated to the
546. 01:08:36 Ombudsman is, rather than creating a manual process at this point, we are looking at how our new Mosaic system
547. 01:08:45 system can use its capabilities, which is far in excess of the system that we've got now, to create that summary.
548. 01:08:53 So that's what we hope is agreed to be a pragmatic approach to still move forward with the recommendation,
549. 01:09:02 but in a way that doesn't adversely impact on our capacity to support more people in the community with needs.
550. 01:09:11 So this report is providing that background and seeking that we have already following governance and audit committee advised
551. 01:09:24 the Ombudsman on this point, but seeking further endorsement from this committee that that was the right approach to take.
552. 01:09:33 Thank you.
553. 01:09:34 Thank you.
554. 01:09:35 Thank you, Karen. I'll open up two members for any questions. Councillor Mackie.
555. 01:09:40 Thank you.
556. 01:09:42 I understood that this missing piece will be put right when we have Mosaic up and running.
557. 01:09:52 So that's all the problem is, we've got it in hand, and you want us to say, yep, that's good enough.
558. 01:09:58 Is that roughly right? It's roughly right. I just want to put a caveat. So Mosaic is being designed to deliver that output.
559. 01:10:12 Will it have it on day one? I'm not wholly sure, because what we are doing is having to say from day one, what are the outputs that we need?
560. 01:10:23 And the people are working on that both locally and regionally. It's in the list of things that it needs to be done.
561. 01:10:30 But I wouldn't want to look you in the white of the eyes and say on day one, it will be there.
562. 01:10:34 It's in the programme for being delivered from through Mosaic, I think would be a more accurate undertaking for me to give.
563. 01:10:42 Councillor Lister.
564. 01:10:46 Thank you. My questions are slightly more broad than that. In paragraph 1.01, it just says,
565. 01:10:55 when it appears to a local authority that a carer may have support needs, the local authority has a duty of care to do a carer's needs assessment.
566. 01:11:02 So I was wondering, how do they appear to you?
567. 01:11:05 So what kind of kicks off the need for a carer's need assessment?
568. 01:11:10 And with that, when I was looking at the action tracking right at the end of the report, I was just wondering whether that carer's need assessment was done by a social worker or who it was done by,
569. 01:11:23 and whether there was the potential to send those needs assessment out to be done by whoever is completing it.
570. 01:11:32 And then, you know, to just take officer time away from actually completing the assessment and then have the officers more dealing with what's written down on the assessment, if that makes sense.
571. 01:11:40 It might already be done like that already. I'm not sure.
572. 01:11:43 No problem. So in terms of what would indicate us to suggest a carer's needs assessment, when we say when somebody appears to need a carer's needs assessment,
573. 01:11:55 I suppose there are a number of indicators there.
574. 01:11:59 Anybody who, so if we're supporting an individual already with their care and support needs, and they have a spouse, a very close friend, very close relative,
575. 01:12:11 who we come to know about in terms of the conversations with the cared for initially,
576. 01:12:18 and we get to know that that individual actually is providing care, that they're supporting their loved one, their friend very, very much.
577. 01:12:27 That's an indicator. If we're starting to have conversations that somebody is actually not able to go out during the day because they can't leave their husband alone, for example, those sorts of indicators.
578. 01:12:40 We also get advised by GPs sometimes. So a GP will be speaking to an individual.
579. 01:12:47 Often carers don't go to the GP about their own health, but sometimes in talking about the loved ones care, the GP will get a sense.
580. 01:12:55 So sometimes we get a referral that way. But very, it's very much, it's not a prescriptive list.
581. 01:13:03 If there is any reason to believe in our conversations with an individual, whether they're telephoning about that, they're worried about somebody, etc.
582. 01:13:12 If we have reason to believe that they're undertaking an informal carers role to support somebody else, then that's where our responsibilities begin.
583. 01:13:21 So there are a couple of ways that the carers needs assessments primarily happen, well, do happen.
584. 01:13:28 The first way is that we have contracted with NEWSIS, North East Wales Carers Information Service, to specifically run a service of undertaking carers needs assessments for us.
585. 01:13:41 But also our own social workers can and will undertake a carer's needs assessment.
586. 01:13:47 So it depends on which is most applicable for the individual.
587. 01:13:50 Sometimes the carer wants the needs assessment at the same time as the cared for's assessment.
588. 01:13:55 Sometimes they want it absolutely separate because actually I'm here now to talk about my husband.
589. 01:14:00 I want to talk separately about me. And often it won't come at the same time.
590. 01:14:05 So it's not at all unusual that when we first have a conversation with somebody about our feeling that you you're fulfilling a very important part of supporting your loved one from a caring responsibility, they'll often say, oh, no, I'm not.
591. 01:14:19 I'm sister, brother, whatever. And actually, it's a later point that then they may come contact either with ourselves or NUKIS because we will leave those details to say, actually, I've been thinking and I think I do need some support.
592. 01:14:34 So, so, so, so what we try to do is have various routes and ways and we're very based on national statistics.
593. 01:14:43 We're very adept, I think, identifying carers. We've got a lot.
594. 01:14:49 We've got a high percentage of we've got a high number of carers on our register.
595. 01:14:54 And, and that indicates that our attempts to offer the opportunity is being picked up.
596. 01:15:03 But we know there's more. We know there's more to do.
597. 01:15:06 Yeah.
598. 01:15:07 That's it.
599. 01:15:09 And sort of along the theme of the Ombudsman's report, we massively value like unpaid carers in Flintshire.
600. 01:15:16 And is there the potential to do further sort of advertising that the carers needs assessment is there for those that are supporting loved ones?
601. 01:15:24 Thank you. Absolutely. Unpaid carers provide an absolute unquantifiable amount of support to, to friends, family, loved ones, and are, are often doing that without us knowing.
602. 01:15:43 Although we want to be able to identify carers and offer the support as early as possible.
603. 01:15:50 One of the pieces of work that we're doing at the moment to give you a sense of how we're continuously trying to think differently is by the time we often come into contact with carers, they're quite deep into the caring role.
604. 01:16:04 They'll have been doing it for quite some period of time. And one of the, one of the things that we will often hear is, is a carer will, will express that they can't, they can't live their life because they can't leave their loved one.
605. 01:16:22 There will be times where actually that's, that on one level is correct in terms of their loved one can't be left.
606. 01:16:29 There will be other times where we believe that this has become something that over a period of time has become believed by everybody.
607. 01:16:36 But actually with, if we could have worked with those carers earlier on and supported them to live their life as well and to feel comfortable and confident.
608. 01:16:46 So they, that, that, that perhaps the impact of the caring role could have been slightly less on them.
609. 01:16:54 Now I'm being careful here because of course, I'm not suggesting by any stretch of imagination that there are carers that are doing too much because they've chosen not to, et cetera.
610. 01:17:03 What I'm saying is we want to work with people early on, say it's okay.
611. 01:17:07 We'll help you feel safe.
612. 01:17:09 We'll help you feel confident in terms of identifying the carers.
613. 01:17:13 We do, we do a lot of, we do a lot of work already.
614. 01:17:17 Newkis do a lot of work.
615. 01:17:19 It's part of what they need to do.
616. 01:17:21 It's advertised on our, on our social media.
617. 01:17:25 We have open days, community events, et cetera, but we're constantly looking for more opportunities.
618. 01:17:32 Because anybody who, who, including members on this committee, anybody that comes across anybody in their community that they believe is undertaking an informal carer role, we would really urge you to encourage them to contact Newkis if not ourselves.
619. 01:17:48 Newkis are really good first point of information and we work really closely with them.
620. 01:17:54 Councillor Fieu.
621. 01:17:58 Councillor Fieu.
622. 01:18:00 Just a basic question really.
623. 01:18:02 I know Mosaic is in other counties.
624. 01:18:05 Do they have, in other counties, do they have a template built into Mosaic that, you know, now, or is it so new that no such, you know, they haven't, it's not tried and tested.
625. 01:18:21 I'd just like to know that because this, the public ombudsman is, is setting a lot of store by this template.
626. 01:18:30 So it's obviously very important and without those people out there, we'd be awash, wouldn't we?
627. 01:18:39 So, any, anything would help.
628. 01:18:43 Thank you.
629. 01:18:44 So just to clarify, Mosaic is not live in any authorities yet.
630. 01:18:53 So there are, I think, 14 authorities in Wales on a system called WCCIS.
631. 01:19:03 They are moving over to Mosaic and there's two of us on Paris and we are moving over to Mosaic.
632. 01:19:11 And WCCIS has a shelf life.
633. 01:19:14 So those 14 will go in turn and then it will be the two authorities that use the Paris system.
634. 01:19:23 And the ombudsman report whilst it investigated for areas, those recommendations and the good practice applied to all of Wales.
635. 01:19:34 So at this point in time, there isn't an authority that's using Mosaic and using that form.
636. 01:19:41 And I suppose that's why I was a bit hesitant about it being there from day one, because we're relying on something that is still a proof of concept.
637. 01:19:52 And I've yet to see.
638. 01:19:53 So I hope that just explains.
639. 01:19:55 I don't have any other members indicating to speak.
640. 01:20:03 I don't have any other members indicating to speak, so we'll move to the recommendation.
641. 01:20:06 There's just one on this report, which is that we know the progress made in implementing the recommendations made by the Public Service Ombudsman
642. 01:20:13 and plans for implementing the final outstanding recommendation through the implementation of the Mosaic IT system in 2027.
643. 01:20:21 So do I have a mover for that recommendation?
644. 01:20:22 Councillor Claydon, Councillor Healy to second.
645. 01:20:25 All those in favour?
646. 01:20:29 That's everybody.
647. 01:20:30 Thank you.
648. 01:20:30 Now we will move on to Agenda Item 8, which is the Corporate Safeguarding Policy,
649. 01:20:36 and I'll pass over to Chief Officer Craig to introduce this report.
650. 01:20:39 Thank you, Chair.
651. 01:20:41 So just over 10 years ago, Wales Audit Office published a report about corporate safeguarding responsibilities and achievements in Welsh authorities.
652. 01:20:54 In response to that, Flincher developed our corporate safeguarding policy, and that's centred on eight recommendations that were made by Wales Audit Office.
653. 01:21:07 So since 2017, there have been further iterations, and I would describe as tweaks.
654. 01:21:15 So it's been constantly looked at and updated.
655. 01:21:20 What we are presenting to you today is a significant review of that policy.
656. 01:21:26 Ten years later, actually, things have moved on.
657. 01:21:31 So this has been updated with a lot of additions to the policy, and it really is a framework for safeguarding and protecting vulnerable children and adults.
658. 01:21:42 The policy describes roles and responsibilities for every employee.
659. 01:21:48 You will have heard everyone say safeguarding is everyone's responsibility.
660. 01:21:53 It's mine.
661. 01:21:54 It's yours.
662. 01:21:55 It's our responsibility.
663. 01:21:56 So it does include the role of elected members, volunteers and contractors, as well as our workforce.
664. 01:22:03 And it includes information about the types of abuse and about how to report any concerns if people have them.
665. 01:22:12 To be specific, scrolled forward too far.
666. 01:22:17 So on page 172 of the pack, it identifies the key amendments that have been made to this policy.
667. 01:22:28 So it sets out some new sections that have either been updated or incorporated.
668. 01:22:35 Section 5 talks about the safeguarding culture, but it also references the real important learning from the child practice review,
669. 01:22:45 which was called our bravery brought justice.
670. 01:22:48 And that was the case here in North Wales in Gwynedd, where there's been particularly learning for us.
671. 01:22:55 Section 10 reflects contextual safeguarding and emerging risks.
672. 01:23:01 And I think that contextual safeguarding was very much in its infancy 10 years ago.
673. 01:23:07 But a reminder, contextual safeguarding recognises and responds to the fact that abuse and safeguarding,
674. 01:23:15 and it happens outside of a home.
675. 01:23:18 It can happen with peer groups.
676. 01:23:20 It can happen in our neighbourhoods, in our communities.
677. 01:23:23 It happens online.
678. 01:23:25 It happens on schools.
679. 01:23:26 So there's a need to really think wider than just people's homes.
680. 01:23:32 Section 11 updates about managing allegations against employees, volunteers and professionals.
681. 01:23:39 And very much links into the reflection we had at the start of this meeting about Section 5 and us updating that policy and our procedures.
682. 01:23:49 Section 12 includes information, sound posting services to support employees who may have been subject to incidents of abuse
683. 01:24:00 or have triggers past trauma that come forward.
684. 01:24:06 And Section 13 is a section on training to meet the new national safeguarding requirements.
685. 01:24:13 I think it's also fair to say that the old version had a whole host of appendices.
686. 01:24:19 So rather than having a policy with lots of appendices, Fiona, who's online, and the team have done work to amalgamate those
687. 01:24:28 and incorporate more succinctly within the policy so people aren't having to read a policy and then read different appendices.
688. 01:24:35 So Fiona's on live line.
689. 01:24:38 She's supported this work and supported us in corporate safeguarding.
690. 01:24:43 So maybe if I open up to questions and maybe Fiona and I could respond between us.
691. 01:24:52 Thanks, Craig.
692. 01:24:52 I've got Councillor Mackie first.
693. 01:24:55 Thank you very much.
694. 01:24:56 I'm not going to comment on all the detail in the report.
695. 01:25:00 I've waded through it all and it's not for me to say anything.
696. 01:25:04 The only thing I would say is this, most people understand safeguarding and know what to do and would do it.
697. 01:25:11 And I just put myself in the position of somebody, perhaps somebody straight out of school or something like that,
698. 01:25:16 not quite sure what to do, where do they look?
699. 01:25:19 And there is a chart, a flow chart.
700. 01:25:21 I think it's on page 190.
701. 01:25:24 It just doesn't actually have the phone number on there.
702. 01:25:27 I was trying to find out where the phone number is.
703. 01:25:29 And I would like to see that flow chart instead of being somewhere in the middle of the document on the front page.
704. 01:25:36 And it's just an idea.
705. 01:25:39 Rather than the picture that's there, which doesn't tell you anything really.
706. 01:25:45 What I'm saying is, for someone who doesn't know, hit him with it.
707. 01:25:50 That's all.
708. 01:25:50 Well, you're getting a lot of nods to that, Councillor Mackie.
709. 01:25:53 So, bringing Craig.
710. 01:25:58 So, this is where I've been led, Fiona.
711. 01:26:00 Fiona, I wondered, because this will go on the Infernet, won't it, as the place,
712. 01:26:05 whether we could put the flow chart with a number on the Infernet as the first thing
713. 01:26:11 and then the policy to support it.
714. 01:26:14 Do you think that would be feasible as a way forward?
715. 01:26:17 Yeah.
716. 01:26:17 Up and down, down, up.
717. 01:26:18 Yes, Craig, we've also got a safeguarding section on the Infernet.
718. 01:26:22 So, it would fit nicely on that.
719. 01:26:24 We could provide it there as well.
720. 01:26:26 And on the website as well, where we do also have a safeguarding section.
721. 01:26:33 Brilliant.
722. 01:26:34 Thank you, Fiona.
723. 01:26:35 Thank you, Councillor Mackie, for the suggestion.
724. 01:26:37 Councillor Lister.
725. 01:26:39 Thank you.
726. 01:26:40 I just have to flip to the right page now.
727. 01:26:44 Training and workforce development.
728. 01:26:46 I'm glad to see that section added.
729. 01:26:47 When I looked back and it talked about the elected members role,
730. 01:26:51 it was to challenge safeguarding practices and to hold offices to account.
731. 01:26:57 And then looking down at the training and the workforce development,
732. 01:27:01 obviously, it looks like we are Group A in terms of training.
733. 01:27:05 And I just thought, for us, on particular committees where safeguarding,
734. 01:27:09 for this one, for example, for education and potentially for corporate resources as well,
735. 01:27:15 whether that level of training is enough to be able to fulfill that role,
736. 01:27:20 to be able to challenge to the level that would be expected of us with only Group A training.
737. 01:27:27 So, that was just a comment, really, about the training and the workforce development.
738. 01:27:31 But I am pleased to see that all members require basic safeguarding training.
739. 01:27:37 I just think perhaps Group B or Group C might be more appropriate for those sitting on certain committees
740. 01:27:42 where safeguarding plays a big role.
741. 01:27:45 And then in line very much with what Councillor Mackie said,
742. 01:27:48 that the flow chart and even the summary right at the end,
743. 01:27:52 in schools, safeguarding information is displayed everywhere.
744. 01:27:55 It's on every classroom wall.
745. 01:27:57 And I was just wondering whether within this building and other Flincher buildings,
746. 01:28:02 whether that safeguarding flow chart could perhaps be prettified with some pictures
747. 01:28:07 and displayed as posters.
748. 01:28:09 And then one final comment.
749. 01:28:11 I noticed the VIVUP.
750. 01:28:13 And I just wondered whether that was still the service that the Council was using
751. 01:28:16 because I noticed on the toilet doors there was a different company providing support,
752. 01:28:22 emotional support.
753. 01:28:23 And I just wondered whether the VIVUP was the current one.
754. 01:28:25 That's all for this policy.
755. 01:28:27 Thank you.
756. 01:28:30 Fiona, I'll bring you in to respond to Councillor Lister.
757. 01:28:32 Okay.
758. 01:28:33 Dior, yes, we've got some safeguarding posters that have been designed and ready to be put up in meeting rooms.
759. 01:28:41 They're in the buildings, in all our buildings.
760. 01:28:44 It's just we're waiting really for corporate comms who are considering about how to make sure that we put posters up
761. 01:28:52 and they don't look messy and we keep to a corporate standard.
762. 01:28:55 But they have been designed ready to go because, yeah, and we've taken that idea from schools.
763. 01:29:00 So thank you for that.
764. 01:29:01 And yes, you're quite correct.
765. 01:29:03 We need to change VIVUP in the policy.
766. 01:29:05 So I'll make sure those changes are made.
767. 01:29:11 Thank you, Fiona.
768. 01:29:12 Do I have any other members who'd like to?
769. 01:29:14 Councillor Johnson.
770. 01:29:18 Sure.
771. 01:29:18 Yeah, I completely welcome this report.
772. 01:29:22 It's a small technicality more than anything else about what goes and happens to it.
773. 01:29:25 I mean, I'm reading here that it's true to consider and review the corporate safeguarding policy prior to presentation to Cabinet.
774. 01:29:33 I know that, for example, in CROSC, when we do, there's always a kind of report, very, very brief,
775. 01:29:39 sort of comments and recommendations, as Councillor Swoshoes, the regular of that Committee will know.
776. 01:29:44 It comes forward and it's very, very clear what the Committee has gone and said.
777. 01:29:48 So I'm just wondering that, as it's going to be presented to candidates, whether something like that could be put together from the very helpful comments that have been put forward here.
778. 01:29:56 The second point I would also raise here, and why I think that would be helpful from this, is that it's also going to go to CROSC in November.
779. 01:30:07 And one of the things we need to have here is joint conversations, and it may help CROSC in its deliberations to know what the views of social services was in a more formal way than perhaps just being presented in itself.
780. 01:30:24 And the second thing is, and so the final point here is, just in terms of what the Committee's view is,
781. 01:30:29 is this something that they would want to recommend that the Cabinet goes and takes forward?
782. 01:30:34 Because you are commenting on it, you're reviewing on it, but do you think it's something that Cabinet should be taking forward?
783. 01:30:43 Thank you, Chair.
784. 01:30:45 You're part of us.
785. 01:30:46 No, no, thank you, Councillor Johnson.
786. 01:30:47 Craig?
787. 01:30:50 Thank you, Councillor Johnson.
788. 01:30:51 I think it links to the point that Councillor Lister made, in that what I'm hearing is that scrutiny are telling us,
789. 01:31:01 in terms of this, in terms of the recommendations, it feels like there are two specific recommendations that they would be making to Cabinet.
790. 01:31:11 So the first one I've heard about is the publicity and how we promote this and make it accessible,
791. 01:31:17 so that the policy becomes live and visible to people.
792. 01:31:22 And secondly, that, and I think particularly linked potentially to the May elections,
793. 01:31:28 when we think about the training for new members and existing members,
794. 01:31:34 that consideration is given for people on particular scrutiny committees to go beyond Group A training,
795. 01:31:43 to enable them to fulfil their responsibilities.
796. 01:31:46 Margaret, I don't know how you get that into, like, a snappy recommendation.
797. 01:31:49 But I wouldn't want to lose those two points because I think they've come over loud.
798. 01:32:03 So, yeah, so we, the first one is pretty straightforward, isn't it,
799. 01:32:07 that the committee recommends that further publicity and promotion is taken forward.
800. 01:32:14 And then the second one, that training for members,
801. 01:32:18 further consideration is to the level of training required for members going forward from May,
802. 01:32:28 from May 27th.
803. 01:32:30 Does that sound acceptable?
804. 01:32:38 Yeah, and it's broader than just scrutiny as well, isn't it?
805. 01:32:42 There are other, other, like, panels and things which they could probably benefit from.
806. 01:32:47 Further information.
807. 01:32:49 Yeah, we'll, is everybody happy with that?
808. 01:32:52 That's my cue in.
809. 01:32:54 Thank you, Chair.
810. 01:32:55 I completed my Group C training a few weeks ago as a, as a Chair of Governors.
811. 01:33:01 And I'm just, I had the slides to hand, so I was looking back,
812. 01:33:04 and I'm just wondering, is, would Group F be the most suitable for people on this committee
813. 01:33:09 and maybe even Education Committee as public service leaders?
814. 01:33:13 And then that would also mean that they wouldn't have to continuously have refresher on Group A as well.
815. 01:33:20 So I'm wondering if F best fits the people on these and the Education Committee.
816. 01:33:25 Can I take that and have a conversation with HR?
817. 01:33:31 Because I just need, there's been a lot of work about making sure the right people are in the right place.
818. 01:33:37 I hear what you're saying in terms of that definition of leaders.
819. 01:33:40 So if we have that as an action for me to have a conversation with Sharon Carney and report back at next meeting, if that's okay.
820. 01:33:48 Thank you.
821. 01:33:49 Thanks, Craig.
822. 01:33:50 Okay, so we've got the two recommendations as read out by Margaret.
823. 01:33:54 Councillor Mackie to move those.
824. 01:33:56 Let's look for a seconder.
825. 01:33:57 Councillor Healy.
826. 01:33:58 All those in favour?
827. 01:34:02 That's everybody.
828. 01:34:03 Thank you.
829. 01:34:04 We will move on to Agenda Item 9, which is the Annual Report, Performance Report 2025-26.
830. 01:34:11 And I'll pass back to Craig for this one.
831. 01:34:15 Okay, this is the Annual Performance Report for the Council.
832. 01:34:18 So this will be going to all the relevant scrutiny committees.
833. 01:34:25 My proposal is that what our function to do is to look at the social care elements and how they fit into this performance report.
834. 01:34:37 And that you're assured that it's a fair and accurate reflection from your knowledge and work in scrutinising and supporting social care.
835. 01:34:48 During 25-26.
836. 01:34:51 Taking you through the report on that principle, at page 234, there is an overview of the achievements within social services portfolio from a corporate perspective.
837. 01:35:04 There's nothing in there that you won't be aware of that we haven't talked about or cited you on from my perspective.
838. 01:35:13 I think the next page that's important for you to look at to make sure that you feel it's accurate, it's page 240.
839. 01:35:21 So in page 240, it identifies the areas for improvement for social services.
840. 01:35:29 And that focuses on three areas.
841. 01:35:33 Area one is the increased demand and complexity of need that we're having to respond to.
842. 01:35:40 And whilst there has been additional funding allocated, the reality is that our capacity to respond remains challenged.
843. 01:35:52 The second area of area for improvement is workforce recruitment.
844. 01:35:57 And we have spoken about particular hotspots around reliance on agency workers within children's social care and recruitment and retention of very experienced practitioners.
845. 01:36:10 And the work that we've done around grow your own social workers.
846. 01:36:15 But the need to continue that because we do not have a sufficient supply of workforce.
847. 01:36:22 And the last one is developing our quality assurance and practice improvement framework.
848. 01:36:29 I think in depending both the CIW inspections for children's services last year and adult services this year was an absolute focus on enhancing our capacity, focus and learning.
849. 01:36:45 From quality assurance.
850. 01:36:47 So how do we know that practice is consistently applied and how do we know it's having a positive outcome and making a positive impact for people who receive our services?
851. 01:36:59 So they are the three areas that the improvement is identified as improvement for social care.
852. 01:37:06 And then we do feature, as you would expect, on page 247.
853. 01:37:13 And 247 identifies the biggest spending pressures for the council.
854. 01:37:21 So you'll be aware that spend on social services is 32.5% of the entire council's budget.
855. 01:37:30 This summarises that we're having more children and families and adults needed support with more complex needs and care placements and specialist services are costing us more.
856. 01:37:43 So I think that's consistent with what we've said around the areas for improvement.
857. 01:37:47 So they're quite focused messages, but I think they're the right ones.
858. 01:37:53 You could write 100 things, but actually we've got to get some core things focused on and developed.
859. 01:37:59 So that's what the improvement plan is reflecting.
860. 01:38:03 Thanks, Greg.
861. 01:38:06 Councillor Koppel.
862. 01:38:09 Thank you, Chair.
863. 01:38:10 Just, you're absolutely right.
864. 01:38:11 This has encapsulated all that's right and all that's wrong in very simple terms, in easy to get terms, but even I can get it.
865. 01:38:20 So it's one of those things.
866. 01:38:21 This is, I just thank you for a well-written, well-documented piece of work that doesn't hide things, doesn't put them in the back of a book on page 96.
867. 01:38:29 It's all in your face.
868. 01:38:30 So congratulations.
869. 01:38:31 I fully support this.
870. 01:38:32 Thank you very much.
871. 01:38:35 Thank you.
872. 01:38:36 Thank you.
873. 01:39:08 Thank you.
874. 01:39:40 Thank you.
875. 01:39:42 Thank you.
876. 01:40:13 mst can is a licensed product if we had to think about doing it in a different way
877. 01:40:20 we wouldn't be able to retain the license and call it mst can that doesn't mean that we wouldn't
878. 01:40:26 take the learning the principles and the achievements and embed them in a different way
879. 01:40:31 part of this grant funding is to test learn and evolve and the money that you identified
880. 01:40:41 in reality reflected some of the pressures financial pressures that we were already
881. 01:40:46 experiencing last financial year so that was existing spend on direct services spend on workforce
882. 01:40:54 and so that almost is funded to keep us on an even keel and i think the reality is that
883. 01:41:07 there is more demand and what we are seeing in the budget and we saw in july an unprecedented high
884. 01:41:15 number of people needing support from hospital discharge hot weather normally we are talking
885. 01:41:22 some of the figures that you would see in the winter and winter pressures but actually it's not about
886. 01:41:27 winter it's seasonal pressures they can be heat in the summer cold in the winter rain in the autumn
887. 01:41:35 all of those things probably in the spring so um that seven million was incredibly helpful was needed
888. 01:41:44 but the concept that we're providing loads more services we still have demand and we are still
889. 01:41:50 struggling to meet that demand if i'm candid councillor thew yeah david um just want to make sure we're going to um
890. 01:42:10 vote only on the social services side of the report because obviously the there are that well there's one
891. 01:42:18 particular thing that i've picked up that um i don't believe is is quite correct but it relates to um planning enforcement
892. 01:42:29 the page 240 and it's just above the social services um slot uh but as far as i'm aware environment didn't pass
893. 01:42:40 um have um deferred the that particular item to the november committee meeting to vote uh whether they uh
894. 01:42:51 accept that or not so i'm just clarifying that we're voting today just to comment on social services not
895. 01:43:00 the report as a whole right yeah just if i could just come in there yes unfortunately that this report was
896. 01:43:12 deferred due to the um huge agenda that we had and a meeting that was called um so yes environment it
897. 01:43:20 we it wasn't considered but it would will be on the agenda at the um beginning of november and yes we
898. 01:43:27 are considering the social services element of the report today thank you so just to come back because
899. 01:43:35 obviously i wouldn't um want to vote for this as a whole i am only voting to um agree to the social
900. 01:43:46 services side of things perhaps i should abstain thank you um well we could we could look to amend the
901. 01:43:58 recommendation slightly to say that committee supports the annual performance report in relation to social
902. 01:44:03 services for 20 25 26 so we just add in we add in four social services to specify that that's the part
903. 01:44:10 that we're supporting with that that because i'm getting nods from the committee so councillor
904. 01:44:16 i think that would be a fair fair assessment because there are a couple of things really um that i'm i'm
905. 01:44:22 not 100 happy with but social services i certainly am so yes please uh chair be very grateful
906. 01:44:30 no problem thanks councillor thew so we'll unless anybody any members have got any other questions
907. 01:44:36 on this report we will move to that as the recommendation and i'm not seeing anybody indicate
908. 01:44:41 so do you have a mover for the recommendation councillor healy uh seconder councillor lister all
909. 01:44:48 those in favor that's everybody thank you we will move on to agenda item 10 which is the budget 2027 28 stage
910. 01:45:03 two and the following item is considered to be exempt by virtue of paragraph 15 of part 4 of schedule 12a
911. 01:45:11 of the local government act because the report contains details of matters pertaining to employment
912. 01:45:16 relations so i will need a mover and a seconder to move us into part two i've got plenty of movers
913. 01:45:22 i'll take councillor couple and a seconder councillor mackie all those in favor
914. 01:45:34 you
915. 01:45:34 you
916. 01:45:34 you
917. 01:45:35 you
918. 01:45:35 you
919. 01:45:35 you
920. 01:45:35 you
921. 01:45:35 you
922. 01:45:36 you
923. 01:45:36 you