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1. 00:00:06 yeah brilliant yeah okay okay good afternoon members okay thank you all for attending we'll
2. 00:00:17 start the meeting and we'll start with apologies please thank you chair we've received apologies
3. 00:00:23 from councillors oh sorry councillor dave vernon and wendy white one of our co-opted members
4. 00:00:29 and we have one substitution today councillor dave evans is substituting for councillor gina madison
5. 00:00:34 thank you item two declarations of interest including whipping do we have any
6. 00:00:45 doesn't look like we do just to raise with the committee i'm sure that um there is an item on
7. 00:00:50 the agenda isn't there in relation to school governors and but as usual with this committee
8. 00:00:55 that is included on your phone then you don't have to say thank you okay and we will move on to the
9. 00:01:01 minutes then of um the meeting on the 18th of september and the 24th of september can i have a
10. 00:01:08 mover and a seconder for those and then we'll take them by each page councillor mackie councillor crease
11. 00:01:14 thank you we'll go through those then um page five page six page seven page nine
12. 00:01:31 page ten page 11 and finally page 12. councillor mackie thank you and a show of hands please all those in
13. 00:01:49 favour that's carried check thank you okay item four oh did you do all yeah yeah i was looking at page
14. 00:01:58 and i'll be sorry item four urgent matters as agreed by the chair i have received one um within the last
15. 00:02:05 half an hour um from councillor bill crease so if i could hand it over to you councillor
16. 00:02:15 yeah there we go uh yeah under seven under clause 7.5.16 in the constitution in response to the
17. 00:02:22 excessive number of columns being presented i consider them to be unreasonable and excessive under clause g i
18. 00:02:29 believe the opportunity to review and implement changes to the column procedure and i can bring and i'm
19. 00:02:35 bringing this motion under 21.2 as an amendment any motion to add to these council rules of procedure
20. 00:02:43 unless required by law or recommended by committee will then when proposed and seconded standard
21. 00:02:49 journal without discussion to the next meeting of the council uh do we need a seconder second second
22. 00:02:59 um i'm assuming it is for me as a charter to determine whether you accept that item if you
23. 00:03:10 accept it then that will go forward to council with the reasons um behind the calling of the urgent item
24. 00:03:18 councillor crease could you brief i think i understand in general can you just briefly explain to me why
25. 00:03:24 you feel that it affects education scrutiny and what i i actually i'm concerned that affects every
26. 00:03:30 scrutiny scrutiny committee i understand and actually value the column process for important issues but
27. 00:03:36 what concerns me is over the last four to six months the number of columns being presented to all committees
28. 00:03:44 and indeed to education committee have put an undue stress on workforce undue stress on officers and to an
29. 00:03:51 extent uh hog tying the operation of the council if we were to hear between 11 and 20 columns for every
30. 00:04:02 council meeting or two or three columns for every scrutiny committee we would be able to get no business
31. 00:04:09 done that's my concern and the constitution clearly allows for this thank you councillor um
32. 00:04:21 is it it's not open for debate it's not a discussion no it is urgent matter right uh raised with the
33. 00:04:28 chair so it is for you as chair to um indicate whether you accept that as an urgent item to go
34. 00:04:32 forward to council i will accept it then councillor crease and we'll put that forward for full council
35. 00:04:38 on monday thank you thank you uh can we move to item five then the forward work program kerry please
36. 00:04:45 thank you very much thank you chair good afternoon members you'll see the current forward work program
37. 00:04:54 shown on page 17 of your agenda and you will notice that today's meeting there had been some slight
38. 00:05:01 change in variation to the items listed um but um we were able to accommodate the youth justice plan
39. 00:05:09 um at today's meeting and also the school governor's report that was deferred from back in may and that has
40. 00:05:17 um removed one meeting one item from the next scheduled meeting in december and which as you can see
41. 00:05:23 has got a lot of items um listed um moving on to the action plan shown on page 23 you will see that there
42. 00:05:32 are and still a number of actions ongoing um currently um i just wanted to pick up i have sent um in
43. 00:05:41 the one well last book uh one action there writing to the welsh government that letter has been sent
44. 00:05:47 um to the welsh government now and with the amended wording that hopefully you should have all seen
45. 00:05:53 um in relation to the additional funding on alm um also there was a suggestion from councillor and
46. 00:06:01 lister um around ensuring that our forward work program aligned with the esten um action plan
47. 00:06:09 um i have had a conversation with the chief officer and cabinet member on this and i think um what we
48. 00:06:14 would like to do is once the action plan we've got the action plan in place and is to have an informal
49. 00:06:19 session with the committee and so that we can have a look at our forward work program because it is
50. 00:06:24 very busy um so that we can start mapping out actually how we are going to scrutinize that action
51. 00:06:29 plan going forward and making sure that the important things are in our forward work program
52. 00:06:33 and so whilst that um hasn't got an explanation next to it and it's ongoing that that is the plan moving
53. 00:06:39 forward so i just want to highlight that thank you thank you kerry any questions um councillor lister
54. 00:06:46 oh sorry i'll get to talk to you first claire yeah yeah lovely thank you kerry for bringing that
55. 00:06:52 forward to today's agenda i would really welcome the input of this committee in helping us shape
56. 00:06:57 that forward work program so what i'm really hopeful is that we can get a date in the diary as soon as
57. 00:07:03 possible after half term um have a member workshop come together have a look at the proposed actions
58. 00:07:09 in the plan and then how we align it to the forward work program so that you are able to appropriately
59. 00:07:14 fulfill your function as a scrutiny committee but also there's a an appropriate amount of time for
60. 00:07:19 officers to undertake the actions so that we can then see that those actions are having a desired impact
61. 00:07:25 um so you know the timing of those regular reviews i think will be really important so we're looking
62. 00:07:31 to try and get that date in the diary as soon as we can help you carry thank you claire um councillor
63. 00:07:38 list and then councillor priest thank you i was just wondering um at the last meeting we deferred
64. 00:07:42 discussing the estern report um and the pyat and the yeah and i was just wondering whether we knew when
65. 00:07:48 that was going to be discussed yet um because it obviously there is a time sensitivity with it isn't
66. 00:07:53 there um and secondly just while i'm here i noticed that uh the theatre music service was due on this
67. 00:07:59 meeting they've been removed from this meeting but i can't see them anywhere on the forward
68. 00:08:02 work program if i could sorry um yes i was supposed to include it in the theatre fluid update sorry um
69. 00:08:12 yeah i took it off um only because um theatre clues of they're coming in january and they've um indicated
70. 00:08:18 that they will also bring an update on the school music service at the same time while they're here
71. 00:08:22 so yeah i'll amend the forward program so the fact that that's going to be included
72. 00:08:26 with with regards to the esting were we not waiting for the outcome of the um
73. 00:08:31 um challenge that we submitted and we were going to call a a meeting within a week of that so my
74. 00:08:38 understanding is that those um matters are still ongoing in communication between the local
75. 00:08:42 authority and destine so that has not yet reached a conclusion thank you claire councillor priest
76. 00:08:50 thank you chair um i've just noticed a couple of things which are now missing including the music that you just said uh the holiday hunger isn't anywhere i actually brought it up at the last meeting as well as well as well as the
77. 00:08:58 holiday hunger isn't anywhere i spoke to the cabinet member as well as well regarding this who said there was going to be a policy put in place and it would be presented however it isn't anywhere there whatsoever so
78. 00:09:16 and if you look at it we're about to come into half term and there is nothing in place for holiday hunger
79. 00:09:24 whatsoever and nothing for christmas so we're coming into aspects where that is important to know what
80. 00:09:33 may be with holiday hunger because it's not going to go away people are still hungry
81. 00:09:38 um the other agenda item that i saw was missing was the actual parking around schools it was actually brought up
82. 00:09:49 where was the progress on this there has been quite a few instances lately which the police have been involved
83. 00:09:55 in in parking etc and it was asked at this meeting for either an update or the actual working group to be put back together
84. 00:10:06 to re-look and to address this so that is something else we need to look at a quick one as well well an important one we've got safeguarding on the agenda
85. 00:10:18 however in light of what took place at the argoid high school yesterday i think that needs bringing forward to as soon as possible
86. 00:10:26 we do need an update on any safeguarding issues that are taking place especially in the new school that is that is there we need to know what is actually going on and what actions have been taken
87. 00:10:40 thank you jack thank you councillor priest uh so if you want to do that i just need to declare a personal interest because a school's been named at which i'm a governor
88. 00:10:54 and if i can address the the first two um holiday hunger and i was led to believe that um we would reschedule it into the full work program but it was after the holiday hunger working group
89. 00:11:07 had met and that was there was supposed to be a meeting um arranged on that um so i will pick that
90. 00:11:15 up with the relevant offices um so that i can have a look at when the working group is supposed to meet
91. 00:11:21 and when we can fit that into our full work program um in terms of the parking school parking um i think i did
92. 00:11:29 refer to this at the last meeting um it is going to the environment overview and scrutiny committee
93. 00:11:34 um it covers both um this committee and the environment over the scrutiny committee and due to the
94. 00:11:41 um way in which our meetings fall environment obviously meets every every month um it was agreed
95. 00:11:48 that it would go on that agenda and that an invite would go out to education and this committee members
96. 00:11:53 and as as we have done in the past so you will be able to go and participate in that item when it goes to
97. 00:11:59 environment i will double check when it's going to environment and i will email this committee to let you
98. 00:12:04 know the date if i could pick up on councillor priest's request to bring the safeguarding report forward
99. 00:12:15 um respectfully council priest we present that report on an annual basis to the joint committee
100. 00:12:21 of education and health that's why it is scheduled when it is um you know you will appreciate there
101. 00:12:26 will be incidents regularly in schools that need to be managed and i think what you need to be assured
102. 00:12:31 about in this committee is that the appropriate emergency procedures worked successfully at the school
103. 00:12:36 yesterday the situation was banished appropriately um and um you know it's not really for open open
104. 00:12:43 discussion but i can give you the assurance that the school's lockdown procedures worked as we expected
105. 00:12:49 them to do the incident was very well managed the appropriate services were engaged and the matter you
106. 00:12:54 know was successfully concluded in a relatively short pace of time but it proved that our emergency
107. 00:12:59 critical incident policy worked so i can give you the committee that assurance thank you claire
108. 00:13:05 uh any other speakers on the council allister sorry um i was also wondering um the recommendations from
109. 00:13:14 the school transport task and finish group were awaiting some cabinet um action and i have residents
110. 00:13:22 eagerly awaiting that action i was just wondering when that was likely to happen and thank you we did put
111. 00:13:29 the um as a committee jointly with the environment overview scrutiny committee we did put the recommendations
112. 00:13:34 of the working group forward to cabinet in march and i'm happy to ask if an update similar to the cap
113. 00:13:40 school parking can be provided um because those um recommendations from the both scrutiny committees
114. 00:13:47 were supported by cabinet with a slight amendment but they were supported so um i can ask if an update
115. 00:13:52 can be provided anybody else councilor bibi justin light of uh the comments being made and in respect to
116. 00:14:05 adding any further amendments just like to formally move the recommendation thank you councillor um
117. 00:14:11 can we have a seconder councillor marshall all those in favor please that's okay that's everybody
118. 00:14:20 thank you okay item six the youth justice plan i believe jamie is going to present and we have holly
119. 00:14:28 with jamie welcome this is your first meeting holly i believe so welcome um over to you jamie
120. 00:14:37 good afternoon thank you very much um obviously this is an opportunity to discuss the youth justice
121. 00:14:43 services statutory youth justice plan which is required uh annually to the youth justice board and
122. 00:14:48 ministry of justice that outlines the progress that the youth justice services made over the last 12 months
123. 00:14:54 and our future forward working uh programs so i'll i will try and be brief and provide a summary of
124. 00:15:01 of the plan hopefully within this youth justice plan you um will see the youth justice services strong
125. 00:15:08 commitment in partnership with the ace hub wales and wrexham university towards developing trauma
126. 00:15:13 informed practice within the service um you'll also see that over the last 12 months we've really
127. 00:15:20 worked to strengthen not only our trauma from practice but how we measure impact in the service
128. 00:15:26 particularly how we uh how we access and gain feedback from children uh parents carers and victims
129. 00:15:34 in order to demonstrate the uh the areas in which we are making impacts in areas where we may need to
130. 00:15:39 improve we've also been working to align our feedback mechanisms with a number of strategic priorities
131. 00:15:46 both within the council in terms of commitments towards participation
132. 00:15:50 uh the three issues campaign through uh flinch of youth services and also some of our strategic
133. 00:15:56 priorities across north wells linked to the serious violence duty and hopefully from this report you'll
134. 00:16:01 see that the youth justice service is making a number of improvements across a number of areas and
135. 00:16:06 across a number of children's lives um over the last 12 months you'll also see that our um whilst
136. 00:16:13 uh our ongoing uh workload predominantly pertains to out of court disposal so working with children prior to
137. 00:16:22 their involvement in the formal criminal justice system and that still remains the case but due to
138. 00:16:27 additional funding we've also been able to increase our prevention offer across uh flinch here and work
139. 00:16:33 with a number of our partners to develop our young futures panel and again you'll see through the report how we
140. 00:16:38 are engaging with children and making that active offer at an earlier stage in addition um this committee will
141. 00:16:46 will be aware that um hmp who which are our inspectorate have amended our national inspection program
142. 00:16:55 and some of the standards linked to inspections um to increase visibility of our work with victims and victims
143. 00:17:02 within the community um therefore as part of our ongoing uh improvement work is we've we focus very
144. 00:17:10 strongly on our work with victims it will now account for about a third of our inspection outcome uh when
145. 00:17:16 we are again inspected and again we focus very much on improving our responses to victims but also
146. 00:17:23 assessing that against feedback that our victims provide and again from the youth justice plan hopefully
147. 00:17:28 you'll be able to see um that a number of our victims are extremely pleased with the service that they
148. 00:17:34 receive from youth justice service but also how they experience is the services that they uh that they
149. 00:17:40 receive and how they feel within our communities again a key area of our work that over the last 12
150. 00:17:48 months but going forward is our work uh that which aligns to the serious violence duty um and we've also
151. 00:17:54 been fortunate uh to be identified as an area for assistance through the youth endowment fund uh to
152. 00:18:02 work as part of their area leaders program which allows us to have focus on developing multi-agency
153. 00:18:07 responses to youth violence um so again we've been working very closely with the youth endowment fund and
154. 00:18:12 with our statutory and non-statistry partners across the authority um to develop an action plan uh to
155. 00:18:19 improve those outcomes be it referral pathways be it how we monitor uh outcomes um so we again we are
156. 00:18:27 we are that's part of our work going forward over the next 12 months there are a number of challenges
157. 00:18:33 within youth justice nationally and we'll see from the youth justice uh plan and also the report
158. 00:18:40 that there is significant change we've had a white paper um that indicates a number of potential
159. 00:18:47 changes to youth justice uh across england and wales but more significantly uh are the discussions that
160. 00:18:53 are currently taking place around the devolution of youth justice services to wales at this stage
161. 00:19:00 there are obviously ongoing conversations uh across governments um and again for for a youth justice
162. 00:19:07 service there is a number of unknowns in terms of what a youth justice service will look like in the
163. 00:19:13 next 12 months as we go forward the one thing that we have had confirmed from welsh government and
164. 00:19:17 ministry of justice is they have now confirmed our grant from youth justice board has been transferred
165. 00:19:22 across to welsh government for the next three years and they've confirmed that grant um as the same um
166. 00:19:29 for our 2025 26 levels this committee will be aware that traditionally we've always struggled to get
167. 00:19:36 clarity over uh our youth justice grant and when it's going to be received so we welcome the fact that we
168. 00:19:42 now have confirmation over the next three years of what our grant will be however and it won't escape
169. 00:19:49 this committee essentially um it is a cut to youth justice services because of the sort of standstill
170. 00:19:56 budget position that we have over the next three years and again this committee will be fully aware
171. 00:20:02 And again, this committee will be fully aware and we'll see within the report that as a service,
172. 00:20:05 we highly depend on grants and a number of those other grants that we receive are year
173. 00:20:11 to year.
174. 00:20:12 So again, whilst we have confirmation of our Youth Justice Board grant, we don't have confirmation
175. 00:20:17 of other grants going forward.
176. 00:20:19 So we welcome the confirmation, but obviously there are significant challenges ahead of
177. 00:20:24 us.
178. 00:20:25 Additionally, and again, this committee will be very well versed on our challenges following
179. 00:20:31 our HMIP inspection in 2024 around the challenges that we have had.
180. 00:20:38 Firstly, with securing our statutory probation resource from the probation service.
181. 00:20:43 Again, sadly, we have not made any further progress on that with the probation service.
182. 00:20:47 And secondly, is our ability to obtain speech and language resources to the service.
183. 00:20:55 And I can say that the Youth Justice Management Board has vigorously pursued those two issues.
184. 00:21:02 And it's particularly on speech and language.
185. 00:21:05 We've had direct consultation between chief executive of the council and the chief executive
186. 00:21:11 of Betsy.
187. 00:21:12 Unfortunately, their position remains, sorry, Betsy's position remains unchanged, that they
188. 00:21:17 are not in a position to provide us with that additional resource.
189. 00:21:20 And we have also written to central government, Welsh government, and more recently had direct
190. 00:21:28 engagement with ministerial colleagues.
191. 00:21:31 And as part of wider engagement through the Yacht Managers Cymru group, have had engagement
192. 00:21:39 with the deputy first minister as well around this issue, who sat on the original committee
193. 00:21:45 that made the recommendation to Welsh government.
194. 00:21:48 So, again, we are hopeful, but there is no clear way forward at this precise moment in time.
195. 00:21:56 I will stop there if anyone has got any other questions about the contents of the Youth Justice
196. 00:22:01 Plan.
197. 00:22:02 I will go to the cabinet member first and then I have got Councillor Mackie and Councillor
198. 00:22:07 Priest indicated as well.
199. 00:22:09 So.
200. 00:22:10 Thank you.
201. 00:22:11 Thank you.
202. 00:22:12 I just, another really comprehensive update from the great report again, Jamie.
203. 00:22:16 I just wanted to highlight as well, the documents that you've been, I understand you've presented
204. 00:22:20 them to secondary heads fed about the, the, the pamphlets that you've got about the trauma
205. 00:22:25 informed language that is used to just change the culture about how these vulnerable cohort
206. 00:22:31 really understanding how they present at school, how they present at different environments
207. 00:22:36 and how best to, to assess what their behaviour isn't it in a supportive way.
208. 00:22:42 So you, you, you didn't mention that and I just wanted to highlight that because I was
209. 00:22:46 going through the document and I really, really love it.
210. 00:22:49 So I just wanted to make sure the committee was aware that you, you're providing that support
211. 00:22:53 at schools as well.
212. 00:22:57 Thank you, Councillor Eastwood.
213. 00:22:58 And, and sorry, just before I pass over to Councillor Mackie, I forgot to thank you for the report.
214. 00:23:02 So thank you.
215. 00:23:03 And I'll just pass over to Councillor Mackie.
216. 00:23:11 Thank you.
217. 00:23:12 Thank you, Chair.
218. 00:23:13 Yeah.
219. 00:23:14 I would also like to thank you for the report.
220. 00:23:18 I don't speak for all members, but I certainly do speak for some.
221. 00:23:26 And there's no doubt at all that we really appreciate what you're doing immensely or any
222. 00:23:33 words you can think of that sound similar.
223. 00:23:38 It's great report.
224. 00:23:40 And what I particularly like is the fact that you are, you are not restricted to boundaries.
225. 00:23:48 You are going beyond what you have to do.
226. 00:23:51 You are seeing an issue and you are addressing it.
227. 00:23:55 And you are testing to make sure all the time that what you were doing is being appreciated by
228. 00:24:01 the people that you're doing it for.
229. 00:24:03 And to me, that is what I want to see.
230. 00:24:06 I want to see our services beyond anybody else's if we can possibly do that.
231. 00:24:12 That's what I think we want in this county.
232. 00:24:15 And that's, that's where I am.
233. 00:24:18 You've already mentioned two of the things I was going to mention.
234. 00:24:20 Of course, we bounce off each of the like this every year.
235. 00:24:23 Um, and, but yeah, that's right.
236. 00:24:27 Speech and language.
237. 00:24:29 Now, right.
238. 00:24:30 This is last year's table, right?
239. 00:24:32 Everybody.
240. 00:24:33 I carry it with me.
241. 00:24:37 This year it's on page 44.
242. 00:24:40 If you want to have a look at it.
243. 00:24:43 And the last item on there is speech and language.
244. 00:24:46 Last year, well, it does give you a little arrow to say on page 44 to show which way it's
245. 00:24:52 going.
246. 00:24:53 It's becoming more of an issue.
247. 00:24:56 It's gone from 38% of children to 51% of children.
248. 00:25:00 So.
249. 00:25:01 You've got proof that we need some action on this.
250. 00:25:06 I know you'll be hammering on the door as hard as you can.
251. 00:25:09 And, and the same with the probation service.
252. 00:25:12 Um, there's not much we can do really.
253. 00:25:16 Um, all I can say is please, please keep hammering on the door.
254. 00:25:22 Um, the, the, so that, that's that side of it.
255. 00:25:27 The funding.
256. 00:25:28 I fully appreciate what you've said in, in what you've told us already.
257. 00:25:33 But you've got standstill funding.
258. 00:25:36 And, you know, anybody in this life who doesn't see inflation happening all the time and knows
259. 00:25:46 that to standstill, you've got to cover inflation at least is not living in the real world.
260. 00:25:53 Um, so I can't believe that for a minute.
261. 00:25:56 I don't know if we can do anything about that.
262. 00:25:59 Um, again, on page, um, uh, 71, you've got a fund.
263. 00:26:05 You've got a paragraph there.
264. 00:26:06 Last paragraph on the page, which talks about the funding issues that you're experiencing.
265. 00:26:12 Um, you've got staff who are going beyond going out of the way to give the best possible service
266. 00:26:19 they possibly can.
267. 00:26:20 And in some cases they can't be guaranteed a job next year.
268. 00:26:24 I can't go with that at all.
269. 00:26:26 It doesn't shit it to me.
270. 00:26:28 It doesn't show that the staff are getting the support that they're entitled to.
271. 00:26:33 And, and that's where I stand with this.
272. 00:26:36 So to summarize, you're doing that wonderful job.
273. 00:26:39 I'm incredibly impressed by what you've said, perhaps a slightly put shorter report would
274. 00:26:46 have been a little bit more acceptable.
275. 00:26:49 I was getting a bit tired when I got past page, um, uh, 80, I think it was, uh, just as a hint.
276. 00:26:58 Um, and if we can do anything at all to get this funding sorting out so that we don't have
277. 00:27:05 this basically could be stop go situation, um, I'm sure we will do it.
278. 00:27:11 Thank you, Ken.
279. 00:27:12 Thank you, Councillor Mackey.
280. 00:27:16 And I, I didn't know if you wanted to add the recommendation that we write to Welsh Government,
281. 00:27:21 um, around funding, um, perhaps you might want to add that.
282. 00:27:25 Yeah.
283. 00:27:26 Yeah.
284. 00:27:29 Yes, I would.
285. 00:27:32 But, uh, we did last year.
286. 00:27:35 Uh, I don't know if you can bang your head.
287. 00:27:41 Against a better brick wall than we are doing.
288. 00:27:44 I know.
289. 00:27:45 I accept what you're saying, chair.
290. 00:27:47 And if that's what the committee wants to do, then all right.
291. 00:27:50 My, my feeling is, and it's a different Welsh Government now.
292. 00:27:53 So, uh, and a letter might be, might be required.
293. 00:27:56 Uh, Councillor Priest and Councillor Bibby.
294. 00:27:59 Uh, thank you chair.
295. 00:28:04 Um, again, I want to offer my thanks to, uh, James,
296. 00:28:10 uh, Jamie and your team.
297. 00:28:12 Um, as usual, the youth justice service is committed to being very progressive with what you're actually doing.
298. 00:28:21 Um, you're looking at preventing.
299. 00:28:25 Prevention is better than cure, which is, which is great, which is what I've always said.
300. 00:28:30 And also concentrating on re making sure re offending, et cetera, for the youth and children in Flintshire.
301. 00:28:37 I particularly welcome your emphasis on the, uh, that early intervention, uh, and the trauma informed, uh, practice and listening to the experiences of the children of the families and to the victims.
302. 00:28:53 You've got to look, you're doing a very holistic circular approach to it all, which is working.
303. 00:29:00 And you can see by the results that you're putting forward, that this is working.
304. 00:29:05 The fact that 32% of the service work is now focused on this is a credit to yourself and the team.
305. 00:29:13 It really is.
306. 00:29:14 It, it was a pleasure reading it.
307. 00:29:17 Uh, it was long.
308. 00:29:18 I'll give that, but it was a pleasure because it's, it's, it's the impact of what you're making.
309. 00:29:27 And it's, you know, Esty would say this to you as well.
310. 00:29:30 It's all the fluff in between, but what is the impact?
311. 00:29:34 What is the changes that you've been making?
312. 00:29:36 And the impact is there and it's real and you can see it.
313. 00:29:40 Um, the positive development.
314. 00:29:44 Yes.
315. 00:29:45 I, I went on about your funding.
316. 00:29:47 I think I did this last year as well, not knowing when you were going to get it, et cetera.
317. 00:29:52 Three years is good.
318. 00:29:54 And I like the fact of three years, I'd like to put an amendment to send in the letter saying that you want it to match inflation with the funding.
319. 00:30:05 That is the Pacific thing we need because you've got the funding, you've got it for three years, but it is not matching inflation.
320. 00:30:12 And if it matches inflation, it is then not a cut.
321. 00:30:15 And that is actually what we're looking at.
322. 00:30:18 So you've got the consolidation there of the three years, but it's the inflation bit that counts.
323. 00:30:23 I have got some questions.
324. 00:30:26 Um, so I will forget the first two because I think, uh, Councillor Mackie actually covered those for me.
325. 00:30:34 So it's fine. Don't worry.
326. 00:30:36 Um, so it's the staffing gaps, um, and the accessibility to specialist support.
327. 00:30:43 The report highlights two continuing, uh, resources gaps, the absence of a statutory probation service resource, and the inability to secure dedicated speech, which you did touch on and language resource.
328. 00:30:59 What impact are these gaps having on the support available to young people?
329. 00:31:06 Plus participate in their appropriate transition to adult services and experiences.
330. 00:31:14 So that's my first one. I'll stop there.
331. 00:31:16 And chair, can I come back? I've got some more. Thank you.
332. 00:31:19 I suppose just addressing the question around impact.
333. 00:31:25 Uh, obviously, uh, we can see in the report that we we've estimated, um, that, you know, 51% of our children have some form of speech and language difficulty.
334. 00:31:35 I suspect that's an under underestimation because national research actually says between 60 and 90% of children in the youth justice cohort, more generally, will have some form of speech and language difficulty.
335. 00:31:47 Um, we know the impact that speech and language can have on children, not just within the justice sector, but as they, as they go through school, college work, um, how they engage with agencies, how they access support.
336. 00:32:01 So we know the impact and the research base is fairly, fairly well established.
337. 00:32:05 Um, so again, we are trying to be as creative as we can to fill that gap.
338. 00:32:09 We've had conversations with Betsy to explore even a pilot approach where we offer a virtual clinic between youth justice staff and, and their speech and language staff.
339. 00:32:20 Unfortunately, that was declined.
340. 00:32:22 Um, so we have looked at relatively cost neutral, you know, options for, for the services.
341. 00:32:29 Unfortunately, that, that was a position that Betsy felt that they couldn't progress.
342. 00:32:33 Um, as I said, we are more hopeful.
343. 00:32:35 Um, the, you know, deputy first minister has advocated very strongly, uh, in her previous role around this being part of the committee that made the original recommendation to Welsh government.
344. 00:32:46 And on that occasion, Welsh government didn't progress with the recommendation to second resources into youth justice.
345. 00:32:52 So again, we are hopeful that we have a very strong advocate, um, in Welsh government that understands the nature of, of the challenges that we experience in terms of probation.
346. 00:33:03 Um, yes, we, I mean, we, we, we require a seconded, uh, probation officer and it's under statute.
347. 00:33:09 Um, we've been without a probation officer for, I would estimate probably at least four years now.
348. 00:33:15 Um, that being said, um, we do receive some funding from probation to pay for a youth justice officer that will support transitions.
349. 00:33:24 So we do have an officer within our team who, who manages that cohort, who will meet with Holly as the operational lead on a monthly basis with our colleagues over in probation and almost track children that are suitable or eligible for that transition.
350. 00:33:41 Um, and we will still undertake that transition with our colleagues in probation as we would, if we had a seconded officer.
351. 00:33:47 Um, so it hasn't, it hasn't stopped those, those transitions and we've had a number of really positive transitions with probation.
352. 00:33:54 And we do also evaluate those transitions as well.
353. 00:33:57 Speak to children and that have been transitioned, speak to our staff, speak to probation about how that transition has gone.
354. 00:34:02 So then we can make adjustments.
355. 00:34:04 So we are constantly still doing that piece of work and evaluating it, but we don't have that statutory resource, which is a requirement under the Crime and Disorder Act.
356. 00:34:13 But also HMIP had been very clear that even when we were inspecting 2024 and we were doing that work and we could evidence that we were transitioning children from youth justice to probation,
357. 00:34:24 it still didn't meet their standards that they would expect.
358. 00:34:27 So unfortunately it will be picked up again in future inspections if we don't have a seconded probation officer.
359. 00:34:34 So I think you've asked a really, really personal question there, Councillor Priest, because that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
360. 00:34:46 What is the impact of our statutory partners not being able to fulfill their role as effectively as we would like them to do within the partnership arrangement?
361. 00:34:54 So, you know, I, I've seen the letters. I can tell you how, how vociferously Jamie is banging this drum.
362. 00:35:02 What we're trying to do in the meantime is thinking, do we have any other specialisms within our own services that can support the youth justice team?
363. 00:35:09 And obviously within our inclusion service, we do have a communication and language specialist service who are obviously also very, very structured.
364. 00:35:18 And there has been some engagement, you know, with the youth justice, but we try to perhaps have some of that expertise shared, you know, around how children develop language and things like that.
365. 00:35:26 But I think it's something again, we can go back and explore with Jeanette and her colleagues in the absence of not being able to have anything in the short term from from Betsy in terms of speech and language.
366. 00:35:35 Is there any sort of cross support and training we can provide from within the portfolio to again, strengthen the knowledge base of our, of our fantastic youth justice officers who are obviously having to really, you know, take consideration of children's language needs when they're, you know, when they're dealing with them through their casework.
367. 00:35:52 So we'll make that commitment to go back and see if there's anything we can do just to keep, to keep that professional learning of Jamie's team moving forward in a positive direction.
368. 00:36:00 But really, we do need the specialist input from health. And that's bottom line. They are, they are the holders of the statutory speech and language services.
369. 00:36:09 So, I think that's a great question.
370. 00:36:10 Thank you.
371. 00:36:11 Thank you.
372. 00:36:12 Thank you.
373. 00:36:13 Thank you.
374. 00:36:14 Thank you.
375. 00:36:15 And I was just talking then and there is a meeting with Betsy on the 2nd of November, and I'm just wondering whether we should have somebody represent education and put that forward to them perhaps.
376. 00:36:23 I am, I am aware that all members have had an email from Margaret asking for any specific, I'm happy to put forward on behalf of this committee, a summary of our concerns, so that they could be raised with Betsy who are coming here to meet with members on the 2nd of November that is.
377. 00:36:40 So I'm happy to pick up with James if he has anything specific he'd like me to include in that.
378. 00:36:45 So, yeah.
379. 00:36:46 Councillor Preece, you have more questions?
380. 00:36:48 I do.
381. 00:36:49 Sorry, Chair.
382. 00:36:50 Just following on from that, just a quick one on the Betsy side of it.
383. 00:36:56 When were they originally asked?
384. 00:36:58 Was it before the new Welsh Government was formed or prior to that?
385. 00:37:03 Is it worth adding that to our letter to Welsh Government specifically on that support as well from Betsy to give them a bit of push?
386. 00:37:13 That wasn't, there isn't one of the other questions but that's just an add-on to that.
387. 00:37:16 Sorry, can I just come in on that?
388. 00:37:17 We did write last time you were here James, we did write as a committee to Welsh Government around that concern, asking for them to intervene, the previous Welsh Government.
389. 00:37:28 So we have got a letter that we wrote last time.
390. 00:37:31 Thank you.
391. 00:37:32 Councillor Preece, sorry, the Cabinet member just wanted to come in as well, if I can bring her in.
392. 00:37:38 Just to provide the assurance that I am also lobbying for this SLT support for our Youth Justice Cohort through WLGA and every time I see a Minister.
393. 00:37:48 So it's just a, I do fly the flag and raise it during those meetings.
394. 00:37:53 Thanks, Jamie.
395. 00:37:54 Just to assure you, so the Chief Executive has written last week again to the new Welsh Government on the back of our engagement through Yacht Managers Cymru with the Deputy First Minister.
396. 00:38:06 And we've also provided, as part of our correspondence, an initial, I suppose, health needs assessment that we provided originally to Betsy to demonstrate the need for this resource as well.
397. 00:38:20 So we've provided everything that we've given before.
398. 00:38:27 Yeah. Thank you, Chair. Well done.
399. 00:38:29 That is a really full answer that I wanted and I am reassured by everything that's being done there.
400. 00:38:36 And hopefully we'll get a positive outcome for this because it is needed and it's a statutory thing that you've got to have anyway.
401. 00:38:44 So it just makes sure that we're all working on the same vein and trying to get this through.
402. 00:38:51 I'll keep it short because I think that that went on quite a bit on that one.
403. 00:38:59 Although the National indicating a reduction in knife crime and serious offences, the report also indicates a small increase in offences, including violence against person, public order and theft.
404. 00:39:16 What analysis has been undertaken to understand these increases and what specific actions will the service take to address them?
405. 00:39:24 Can we receive regular performances or a data sheet showing trends or first time offences or re-offending and serious violence?
406. 00:39:35 I know that's a big question. Apologies for that. Thank you.
407. 00:39:38 I think Councillor, I think the increases are not specifically, I'd have to double check, aren't there?
408. 00:39:47 I think the increases are not specifically with the rates in which those offences are going up, but more the characteristics around those offences.
409. 00:39:54 So when we, because of our focus on violent crime as part of the serious violence duty, what we do when we receive an offence.
410. 00:40:05 duty what we what we do when we receive um an offense that's violence related is we ask our
411. 00:40:06 practitioners to also indicate a number of offense characteristics so was it peer on peer was it
412. 00:40:13 against a parent or carer and that's where we've seen the change in terms of the types of
413. 00:40:18 characteristics so it's not necessarily saying that the rates of offenses are going up but it's
414. 00:40:22 the characteristics are changing and are shifting um around who is the victim or you know what
415. 00:40:27 what has been part of that offense um so obviously what we do with that data is then we will utilize
416. 00:40:33 that as part of our wider violence strategy and look at where the needs are so for example you
417. 00:40:40 mentioned the the you know the rates of violence towards parents and carers and care homes so again
418. 00:40:45 that's something that we're taking forward with north wells police and with our colleagues in social
419. 00:40:49 services around looking at what support can we put in place for for children for families who again
420. 00:40:56 may find themselves in those positions so we are looking at strategies as part of that and we're
421. 00:41:01 also feeding it into our area leaders program work that looks at how we respond collectively to to
422. 00:41:06 youth violence so there's a lot of data around this um this area particularly um because it's a priority
423. 00:41:13 across the serious violence duty as well any more councillor um my final one was to do with funding
424. 00:41:22 sustainability and things like that so i think we've actually actually covered most of that about
425. 00:41:28 the reduction in funding grants and everything i had down here and the outcome of that on the cervix
426. 00:41:33 etc but we're going to be sending that can i also include chair that we send a letter from this committee
427. 00:41:39 to jamie's team for the work that they've done because it's a massive improvement we've seen
428. 00:41:46 under jamie's leadership and it's the impact of what you're doing is there for everybody to read and
429. 00:41:55 things that are in these reports that i've been touching on are beyond your control but things that
430. 00:42:01 are under you are being done extremely well and i want your team to know that we appreciate it completely
431. 00:42:10 thank you jamie so i was just gonna say um i think i think it's the practitioners that do the work
432. 00:42:19 that need the most credit because ultimately they are the ones that are are engaging with with the
433. 00:42:24 children and victims uh day by day so i i thank you but again thank you councillor councillor bibi next
434. 00:42:36 and then councillor bill crease yeah thank you very much uh mr chairman just like to thank very
435. 00:42:42 comprehensive report and you know the incredible work that the team the practitioners have done and
436. 00:42:48 with the modesty of yourself jamie there to uh um just wishing to tie in back to everything else the
437. 00:42:57 the suggestion the councillor mackie made uh about sending letters to welsh government um i think that
438. 00:43:03 would complement the lobbying efforts that have been made by the cabinet member and also the chief exec in
439. 00:43:08 um in working with the team so i mean councillor mackie did say it is sometimes like uh banging your
440. 00:43:15 head against a brick wall but i think also if you don't ask you don't get as well so um yeah just in
441. 00:43:21 support of that and then you know that we uh we write as a committee to ensure that this service a vital
442. 00:43:27 and crucial service gets the resources it needs so it can operate at its uh it's it's full it's full
443. 00:43:33 capacity thank you councillor bibi councillor bill crease thank you chair uh i'm good to follow
444. 00:43:41 everybody else jimmy and congratulate you and your team uh on your efforts and your delivery uh my
445. 00:43:49 question isn't actually for you it's for the portfolio uh education committee i'm regularly struck
446. 00:43:58 by the inordinately good work going on in the background by lots of different forums lots of
447. 00:44:03 different groups that come under the umbrella of education and what strikes me is the general
448. 00:44:09 public know nothing at all about it they're not aware and i spoke in another forum earlier this week
449. 00:44:16 which i think claire could confirm where i said we should be doing more as a portfolio explaining what the
450. 00:44:23 huge education budget and associated budgets does to deliver across the county for the benefit of our
451. 00:44:30 young people so my question is for the portfolio and can you find ways where we can start disseminating
452. 00:44:38 this sort of information in a format that's suitable for the public because you know you get a lot of
453. 00:44:46 batter but an awful lot of good things are happening and we need to be explaining those good things so
454. 00:44:52 thank you thank you councillor crease any other speakers yeah council christ did raise that with me
455. 00:45:05 earlier in the week and i think it's a very fair point isn't it we know that the education budget is
456. 00:45:09 the largest spend within the council um you know and many of our residents obviously will be directly
457. 00:45:14 impacted by that because they have children you know in our schools and are accessing our services
458. 00:45:18 um yeah and we have got to think i think creatively about how we get those really good news stories out
459. 00:45:25 there um jamie you have a part of the website on the flitch camp but actually again in terms of social
460. 00:45:31 media presence it's something our youth service has developed certainly over the last 12 months and
461. 00:45:36 they have a regular presence on social media you know perhaps jamie that's something we need to think
462. 00:45:41 about for your service as well you know it yes it is a sensitive area isn't it um so it would have to be
463. 00:45:46 handled with care um but i think you know there are opportunities to really promote the good work
464. 00:45:51 that you're doing and can i really thank committee members this this afternoon um you know for their
465. 00:45:55 real positive comments and and their really insightful questioning uh in relation to this report um you
466. 00:46:02 you know it's we expect to be challenged as a portfolio but it's equally uh very rewarding to hear
467. 00:46:07 your positive comments about the quality of this service and and i know the team will be really
468. 00:46:11 grateful to receive your letter you know of commendation really of the fantastic work that they're doing
469. 00:46:16 you know with some of our you know most challenged young people um you know so thank you for that
470. 00:46:21 that's that's really welcomed thank you claire as if there's no more speakers we'll move to the
471. 00:46:27 recommendations we were provided with two and i think we have an additional two kerry yeah and so
472. 00:46:34 do you want to so the first um is that members are assured that the strategic and operational
473. 00:46:39 priorities in the plan will enable council to meet its legislative requirements under the crime and
474. 00:46:44 disorder act 1998. the second is that members are assured that the strategic and operational priorities
475. 00:46:52 in the plan effectively support young people already within the criminal justice system but are also
476. 00:46:58 designed to deter children and young people from offending the third kerry was oh sorry the third
477. 00:47:04 was that i like to be written to us government to outline the concerns around grant funding and the
478. 00:47:08 continuation of unsecured annual grants including the need for funding to match inflation rises
479. 00:47:13 and then the last one was that letter be sent to uh jamie and his team congratulating them and thanking
480. 00:47:19 them for all they had work okay so if we have a mover a council of priests council of bibby um all those in
481. 00:47:28 favor please that's how it seems to everybody thank you we'll move to um yeah thank you both yeah yeah
482. 00:47:37 yeah run for your lives and we'll move to item seven which i believe is you kim it is thank you chair
483. 00:47:49 uh afternoon colleagues um for those of you who know me of old i always take every opportunity i can either
484. 00:47:58 to recruit school governors or to thank school governors for the work that they do in our schools so the
485. 00:48:05 report uh presented to you today i hope it's it's a short report i hope it's an easy read um and i just
486. 00:48:17 i just want i just want to i'm not going to go through it because clearly you know we as good
487. 00:48:22 governors we will have all read the paperwork before we come to the meeting but there's a there's just a
488. 00:48:28 couple of bullet points i did want to pick out which which explains i think the space that we are
489. 00:48:33 currently working in as school governors and the space potentially where we will beginning to move
490. 00:48:40 into a new world as school governors so just a couple of points from the report 104 there just
491. 00:48:47 explains the legislative framework we are governed within regulations um to the hilt as school governors
492. 00:48:56 106 i talked there about how training is is generally provided again it's prescribed training
493. 00:49:03 uh which is under the regulations 109 is just a point of interest the standards committee did ask the
494. 00:49:13 um me to prepare a report um on conduct of school governors um pleased to note there were no formal
495. 00:49:22 complaints we received about the conduct of school governors uh 110 i have brought in the uh reference there
496. 00:49:31 the sentence from the p app which asks us to um gather more information about how governing bodies evaluate
497. 00:49:41 the impact of their training and for those of you who are governors you'll know that's the statutory duty
498. 00:49:46 of governors so again i'll be working up um an evaluation toolkit to go out to governing bodies to help them
499. 00:49:55 um evaluate their training needs the impact of their training and obviously for us in the authority to
500. 00:50:03 to gather that information and then 1 11 i talk about the national review for those of you who dip into any
501. 00:50:14 wells government flyers you will might be aware that um the minister has asked again because we've done it
502. 00:50:23 under a previous administration a review of all the legislation that relates to school governors
503. 00:50:30 root and branch it's a system that's not been uh it's a regulatory framework that's not been updated
504. 00:50:37 for 20 plus years i think the framework and the system was for a different time and place so we're
505. 00:50:43 going the minister is going through um a review of that there will in due course if the minister agrees to
506. 00:50:51 move forward with any recommendations a period of consultation followed by a period of legislative
507. 00:50:58 change so it's not going to happen overnight it's going to be some some time but part of that um
508. 00:51:06 110 is you know is predicated on some of the changes that relate into some of the actions that came out of our
509. 00:51:13 bravery brought justice report and some of the lessons there to learnt so there will be a root and branch review
510. 00:51:19 branch review of the way we work um as as governors going forward but it's it's not going to be quick
511. 00:51:27 so that's just the space on which i'm just presenting this report to you today it is a report just to to
512. 00:51:35 note um but but the time now for you to ask questions deal check thank you kim and thank you for the report
513. 00:51:44 um councillor mackie and then councillor priest please we've been the same yeah exactly i think
514. 00:51:51 sorry we're just discussing whether we're going to be talking about the same thing
515. 00:51:55 um right thank you very much for the report um and i would like to start off on page 118 item 1.04
516. 00:52:03 i noted that the regulations are were referred to 2013 and within within that first uh paragraph
517. 00:52:17 in 104 it says that training in the use and understanding of school data
518. 00:52:26 do we have any data now well schools will have their data and and that's what the governors in their
519. 00:52:36 school governing body meeting should be reviewing i think councillor i think it's that it's the use of
520. 00:52:46 the word data isn't it it's a performance information it's a whole host of information which we as governors
521. 00:52:54 need to understand our school it's attainment data it's achievement data it's that well-being that it's
522. 00:53:02 not the old-fashioned you know in the high school gcse etc so no you're right councillor mackie it's it's the
523. 00:53:10 use of data but but again you reference there that 2013 it's you know simple maths it's now 13 years old
524. 00:53:19 and it the date the statutory content was written probably 15 years ago it's right for review and of
525. 00:53:25 course if we change the regulatory framework going forward there will be a knock-on effect to that to
526. 00:53:32 that training content it was a different world i mean data packs were and everything right the other
527. 00:53:43 question i wanted to ask well more of an observation that that um the number of cancelled courses
528. 00:53:52 uh and it seems that training is becoming more difficult i mean it's always been difficult to get
529. 00:54:00 school governors um i don't think that's perhaps got any worse um but um it it was somewhat disc uh
530. 00:54:11 disconcerting to read that that you're you're not getting people coming uh applying for courses um
531. 00:54:17 um and and i know that from my personal experience um perhaps we should really have to wait and see
532. 00:54:24 what the welsh government's going to come up with and then move on from there i've answered my own
533. 00:54:29 question haven't i thank you councillor mackie councillor priest thank you chair thank you for the report
534. 00:54:37 um i'm on the same lines as councillor mackie uh because i was going which which number are you looking at
535. 00:54:44 so it it was 104 and 106 uh that i was looking at um one is there a central uh database for completion
536. 00:54:56 of mandatory training that the governing body i know the school will have it but do they do one that is
537. 00:55:05 then centrally kept by the authority that's one question two has any of the online training be
538. 00:55:14 looked at recently because we uh i know some new governors were having issues with the induction
539. 00:55:23 governing induction because they were completing the different sections however it wouldn't accept that
540. 00:55:31 a certificate at the end or that they'd actually achieved it but they actually showed the proof to
541. 00:55:36 say they'd completed all sections but it wasn't showing the certificate is that something that we look
542. 00:55:42 at on a regular basis thank you thank you the the first no we we don't coordinate those data completion
543. 00:55:52 at training completion data simply because that statutory duty is is with the governing body because
544. 00:55:58 it's the governing body then they have to take that action under the regulations which means that we can
545. 00:56:05 suspend we can disqualify a governor if they don't complete the training so that duty rests with the
546. 00:56:11 governing body the second point you raised about the actual system itself the two-part question the
547. 00:56:19 first one has the content change no because again it's under the 2013 prescribed content and as we've
548. 00:56:27 just talked about that will change going forward the issue that um you the example that you referenced
549. 00:56:33 there about somebody not been able to complete the system it sounds like a systems issue and and they only
550. 00:56:40 need to contact the office direct and we can we can take them through that sounds it's it's it's i've not
551. 00:56:47 occasionally i have it and sometimes it's the way the user has accessed the online portal but it's there it
552. 00:56:54 should work it it's been it's been there for a number of years but if that user has a particular
553. 00:57:00 problem with accessing that portal we we can put that through to our it services that oversee that just i'll just
554. 00:57:11 come back on that it was an issue but with more than one individual uh so i'm talking about five or six
555. 00:57:17 individuals who had that issue that and then there was somebody who actually got a certificate so it's
556. 00:57:24 it's i don't know what was going on so it was an issue with some of them uh no what my it was a slight
557. 00:57:30 misunderstanding what i was asking was yes i know that the schools have to complete that and keep the record
558. 00:57:37 however once they've completed the record is an annual up to date one then forwarded on to be kept
559. 00:57:45 centrally by yourselves here that's what i'm actually asking so so you've got an update so that you can
560. 00:57:55 quantify and that you that you're actually happy that all governors up to that period of time have got
561. 00:58:01 x y and z so an annual update that is then sent to yourselves thank you uh no there is no resource
562. 00:58:11 within us with the portfolio just to gather that as a piece of statistical information the churn of
563. 00:58:17 governors it would need to be more than annual i think people come and go yeah you know it's like keep
564. 00:58:24 people say to keep a list of chairs that the churn over of the 1100 governor positions we've got
565. 00:58:31 and and to what end i don't that's a piece of information that's important for that governing
566. 00:58:37 body to be able to operate effectively and coming back to your other point more than happy if that if
567. 00:58:42 it's a particular school or cohort get that school clerk clerk to governors to contact me and i can put
568. 00:58:49 them in touch with the it help desk yeah it's not it's not an intuitive necessarily online portal that's
569. 00:58:56 been devised but it is what we've got uh i've got paul johnson uh next cabinet member thank you i do
570. 00:59:05 appreciate the opportunity to chair it's really to go and thank kim for bringing this together because uh
571. 00:59:12 one of the things when you go through reports that i found really fascinating is it's uh on this one here
572. 00:59:17 it makes reference to the uh standards committee and so i had a quick look to see what on earth been
573. 00:59:23 going on there and sometimes you think oh kim obviously chosen sits into education education
574. 00:59:29 education but looking at what was done in the tre and the reports talked about for the standards
575. 00:59:34 committee i think is excellent uh i read that report i didn't know that i didn't know that
576. 00:59:39 but it's it's just sometimes we should know if you feel sometimes we sit in our silos and just be able to
577. 00:59:45 to bring those two reports together personally i found so so so helpful particularly i think it
578. 00:59:51 answered that's where the information lies in whatever so my my thanks for kind of taking this
579. 00:59:56 through so it's not just seen as an education issue but it's a code of conduct and this issue as well
580. 01:00:00 this as well thank you thank you councillor johnson if you turn your microphone off and then
581. 01:00:06 councillor bibi within that yeah thanks very much mr german just a few observations really and i
582. 01:00:14 think my concern is and we've been told we're having a welsh government review which is usually
583. 01:00:19 a code word for this will get kicked down the can down the road for uh you know an infinite
584. 01:00:24 amount of time um glad there's a review taking place but um my concern is is our school governance
585. 01:00:32 body is our school governance model fit for the 21st century and for the situation and the
586. 01:00:39 circumstances we find ourselves in education now because i think we're dealing with a lot of very
587. 01:00:45 complicated headwinds we're dealing with very difficult decisions with finance which ultimately
588. 01:00:51 result in very difficult decisions with staffing and there is issues very complicated issues with
589. 01:00:58 the provision of additional learning needs and challenging issues with pupil behavior
590. 01:01:05 very complicated issues with staff relations and i just think we're piling on enormous amount of
591. 01:01:15 responsibility on what are people who at the end of the day are giving up their very precious time to do
592. 01:01:21 this you know you know a lot of governing bodies have parents on them which are in many cases are
593. 01:01:28 trying to work a full-time job trying to raise a family and then having to give up their time to
594. 01:01:34 serve on a governing body so i just think it's you know it's it's an incredibly challenging position
595. 01:01:42 i think if things are going very rosy in a particular school in a particular governing body then
596. 01:01:47 it can be quite pleasant experience but as we know in some schools there can be some very critical
597. 01:01:53 lee uh how can we put incredibly difficult situations and i'm just concerned that we're
598. 01:02:00 relying on the goodwill of a lot of people in our communities to carry this forward and you know
599. 01:02:06 another thing is my experience of governing bodies there's quite a diverse mix um you know i would say as a school governor
600. 01:02:16 i would find it quite intimidating to challenge educational professionals particularly senior
601. 01:02:21 teaching staff on you know on their decisions and i can imagine that's that's an experience a lot of governors
602. 01:02:28 have you know i'd imagine that serving on governing bodies with people who have been experienced teachers
603. 01:02:34 and educational professionals they feel a lot more confidence in doing that so it's just my feeling that
604. 01:02:39 you know we are as i said put an enormous amount of responsibility on people who are giving up their
605. 01:02:45 time here and i think you know does there really need to be a rethink about you know how that how
606. 01:02:52 that model is and what sort of support is there available to people because um you know let's face it and
607. 01:03:00 i think this is the problem with the recruitment um because i think a lot of people like the idea of coming and
608. 01:03:07 helping their school but again i think when it come when they become aware of some of the
609. 01:03:12 responsibilities and sometimes quite unpleasant things that they they have to do in that
610. 01:03:17 responsibility it sometimes can be very difficult getting people to come forward
611. 01:03:29 thank you councillor bivy yeah the the the review as you said will it be kicked down the road
612. 01:03:36 i would hope not i think there's too much resting on this the last time they did try to do a review about
613. 01:03:42 seven eight years ago it was kicked down the road we are in a different landscape um and you know
614. 01:03:50 whenever i go and speak to my governors you know where else would we get volunteers running multi-million
615. 01:03:58 pound businesses where else do we get volunteers having to act as quasi hr legal accounting professionals
616. 01:04:07 in the rules on that paperwork that sits uh in front of us in what the law says we meet three times a year
617. 01:04:15 in six hours a year we have to arguably just do the math three we're only required to meet once a term
618. 01:04:22 reasonable meeting two or three and that's that's the that's the legislative framework within which we
619. 01:04:28 we exist as governors so i think going forward that the review um claire will have been working on it
620. 01:04:35 in her group i'm working on it nationally as as a group of governor support officers and we fed into
621. 01:04:42 all of those concerns which which are well well rehearsed and we could we could take another hour
622. 01:04:48 following them through but fundamentally the review will be root and branch it will be the size and shape
623. 01:04:53 of a governing body it will be the functions with which we as a governing body um will can take
624. 01:05:01 and if they take functions off us then the question has to be where are those statutory functions going
625. 01:05:06 to go and that that's that's the bit that's got to come with the support and the resource to do it so
626. 01:05:12 um yes so it's it's and then perhaps we'll be left to do those things we like to do as governors which is
627. 01:05:20 supporting the school and the community and we leave those hard legislative safeguarding
628. 01:05:27 hr processes to to be done elsewhere and we hope the meeting i was at last week we hope the minister
629. 01:05:35 will start that consultation process imminently can i continue yeah thanks yeah thanks council baby i
630. 01:05:44 think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there and as kim's quite rightly said you know we're
631. 01:05:48 asking volunteers to run multi-million pound businesses with all the challenges as as you've
632. 01:05:53 described um i can tell you from the association of directors of education in wales there's been
633. 01:05:59 really robust discussions and feedback through the wlga to ministers on the need for this to be
634. 01:06:06 a root and branch review where no options should be off the table it's not about you know
635. 01:06:13 tweaking around the edges we've provided coherent argument to welsh government why there needs to be
636. 01:06:19 a fundamental change uh in the structures around school governance as you've alluded to today
637. 01:06:25 particularly because of the challenges around financial management you know hr uh issues um yeah
638. 01:06:31 the whole a whole host things and and intrinsically linked to school improvement as well where a
639. 01:06:37 governing body is not able to demonstrate the capacity to hold appropriately educational professionals
640. 01:06:42 to account when standards are not as they as they should be so yes there's been a very robust
641. 01:06:47 discussion about that and we certainly keep the pressure on kim is absolutely right you'll have
642. 01:06:52 seen from the report that the school goes up you know supporting school governance sits within kim's
643. 01:06:57 role as a strategic manager of the portfolio she has 0.2 of her working time dedicated to school
644. 01:07:05 governance now you know if there is going to be a change and there are more responsibilities
645. 01:07:10 for example come back to the local authority because as a local authority we do have the trouble is you
646. 01:07:15 know we we we we are required to ensure high standards of education you know that's enshrined in
647. 01:07:21 legislation isn't it that's our function as an educational authority but actually we do not have the powers
648. 01:07:29 because actually they sit with governing bodies in terms of the hiring and firing of you know of staff
649. 01:07:34 you know with disciplinary processes capability processes and you know you you are aware that that can then
650. 01:07:39 create problems so if welsh government is going to make a significant change to the structure of
651. 01:07:44 government bodies and if more responsibility comes back to the local authority which i can tell you
652. 01:07:49 education directors would welcome um then that has to come with resource because we cannot as a council
653. 01:07:57 and no local authority would be able to absorb the amount of you know resource that would be required
654. 01:08:03 uh to fulfill that function effectively without additional funding and i think we know we've been in
655. 01:08:08 this situation haven't we so many times before where legislative changes are made and then the
656. 01:08:13 resource to enable local authorities to implement that doesn't follow uh you know but this is you
657. 01:08:18 know this is absolutely critical so you know we're all waiting with bated breath aren't we ken for the
658. 01:08:24 outcome of this review but as i say it's something that absolutely does need to happen um because the
659. 01:08:29 system you know despite the huge dedication of yes you say thousands of governors hundreds of governors
660. 01:08:35 across flintshire um the task i think now of running a successful school establishment is so complex um
661. 01:08:43 that it needs a different model so and we can certainly keep the committee updated in terms of
662. 01:08:48 the development of that review you know the issuing of the consultation you know what there will be
663. 01:08:52 responses through adju through the wlga and you know and once they're done you know we can share those
664. 01:08:57 around the committee there's no there's no problem with that does that help you thank you claire i've
665. 01:09:04 got councillor fran lister and then one of councillors healy online after fran um yes i couldn't agree
666. 01:09:14 more with um what councillor bibi has just said um as a school governor it is probably priority number 50
667. 01:09:21 on my weekly list of things that i will think about and i've lost count of the number of times in this
668. 01:09:27 committee we have heard is the responsibility of the head teacher and the governing body there is
669. 01:09:31 just an enormous responsibility um of these people to ensure the safe and and good you know effective
670. 01:09:40 running of the school so i know this is a question that nobody will um particularly want to hear
671. 01:09:45 um it's quite a difficult question i suppose in the event of governance breaking down at it in a
672. 01:09:51 future school what is the process where do you go next okay thank you we do have statutory powers of
673. 01:09:59 intervention as a local authority and where there is clear evidence that governance is not being
674. 01:10:05 effective we can apply to welsh ministers to have the governing body removed and uh and what we call an
675. 01:10:13 interim executive board uh directed by the local authority picked by the local authority to act
676. 01:10:19 as you know as that governing body for a period of time um we have to provide significant evidence
677. 01:10:26 to welsh ministers that we have done everything we can obviously to ensure that governance is effective
678. 01:10:32 but where we have evidence that that is not the case or perhaps where governors have not responded
679. 01:10:37 appropriately to local authority advice and intervention uh we make that application and we have
680. 01:10:44 done that on a number of occasions in flintshire um more so than other local authorities um i have been advised
681. 01:10:52 so we we have a number of those arrangements in place at the moment and we have used them in the past
682. 01:10:58 and i have to say they have all been successful in moving the quality of governance forward in the schools
683. 01:11:04 where we have applied them and then we have been able to transition from that executive board back to a proper
684. 01:11:12 uh you know governing body under sort of the normal regulations and that is always the ambition it is
685. 01:11:17 what we would call a short-term intervention with a view that actually we do get back to the standard
686. 01:11:23 governance model with the view that you know the governors who were involved in that interim executive board
687. 01:11:28 you know can you know support that transition um you know back to a full governing body does that answer
688. 01:11:34 your question councillor lister just to delve a little deeper into it what meets that threshold for you to
689. 01:11:40 gather that information to say actually i recognize that this uh governance you know is breaking down
690. 01:11:48 and and you know are we have we got have you got mechanisms
691. 01:11:52 in place that can mean you can get that information before you reach crisis point
692. 01:12:00 i can't give you an absolute checklist to say if you hit this this this and this
693. 01:12:04 that's a definite move to an ieb every school circumstance is different the context is different
694. 01:12:10 but actually it is one of the um important features of our school improvement service
695. 01:12:16 that when they are working alongside schools and um you know attending governing body meetings they are
696. 01:12:22 gathering that intelligence you know about how the governing body is functioning obviously you know
697. 01:12:26 kim's you know referencing your schools do have to keep records of their training and obviously we do
698. 01:12:31 have contact you know through kim as our governance support officer you know from from governing bodies so
699. 01:12:36 you know we we do gather intelligence in that way as well so it is aligned with our escalation processes
700. 01:12:42 around schools causing concern and it is a key feature alongside the quality of teaching the quality of
701. 01:12:48 leadership the quality of governance will also be a key strand as part of that process
702. 01:12:54 okay on a practical point as well you know as you've said that councilista how do we evidence it as
703. 01:13:02 governors the only evidence we have to the world at large is what is published in our minutes yeah if
704. 01:13:10 as governors we're not asking those challenging questions then they can't be captured in the minutes if our
705. 01:13:16 minutes are not as good as they should be and they're not capturing those challenging questions if
706. 01:13:21 the agenda setting isn't right so for us as governors you know going back to the very very basics are we
707. 01:13:28 as governors talking about the right things and are we capturing them and and again some of the very
708. 01:13:33 bespoke clerk training i do for governors is it's the role of the clerk and the chair because they're
709. 01:13:39 pivotal to the way a governing body conducts its business and then is able to evidence how it's doing
710. 01:13:45 its its job in in the few hours a year that they get together and meet but so if you've got
711. 01:13:52 clerks good clerks keep them because they're as rare as hence teeth thank you councillor lister i think
712. 01:14:01 for me as someone that sat on a governing body that transitions recently to um an interim executive
713. 01:14:06 board it can be a very difficult process for the county to come in and say you as a collection of
714. 01:14:13 volunteers we we don't want you anymore we can get someone better and that it can be quite personal
715. 01:14:18 because you know we've already touched on that these people are volunteers but actually when that ieb starts
716. 01:14:24 and you see the change in pace and the changing level of scrutiny you can sit in there and be reassured
717. 01:14:30 that it was the right decision as difficult as it may have been at the start uh i've got one of the
718. 01:14:37 healy's online um dave or gladys ah it's gladys healy i just want to say thank you very much for this
719. 01:14:46 report that came as a governor of two schools a secondary and a primary i've had cases and i must say
720. 01:14:55 the chief officer claire has helped me tremendously if i ask her for advice she's there and the advice
721. 01:15:04 she has given me has been phenomenal and uh kim brooks she's been behind me all the way i've had complex
722. 01:15:15 cases and when i ask her she's always been there so as a governor if you ask there is sometimes we don't
723. 01:15:25 want to ask you're supposed to know everything no we don't know everything our training hasn't given us
724. 01:15:31 everything so if we ask when there is complex cases that is very important as well thank you very much
725. 01:15:41 for all the courses you put on uh kim uh it's very helpful it's phenomenal and as i must say if you
726. 01:15:52 communicate with your chair of governors that's where it lays the chair of governors are always there and then
727. 01:16:01 you have your different um committees like uh disciplinary and all that and the chair of disciplinary will
728. 01:16:13 communicate with the chair of governors and if there is something you don't understand you get on to kim brooks
729. 01:16:22 or claire wilmot and you'll be they they are very helpful i can't praise them enough thank you chair
730. 01:16:32 thank you councillor hayley thanks gladys and fran i think you wanted to just jump in again that's a
731. 01:16:38 practical question um this committee is made up with some parent governors and there is a couple of
732. 01:16:44 vacancies maybe for parent governors on this committee um i was just wondering i i i sit on a governing body
733. 01:16:51 and i told them about this and they were unaware of it so i was wondering if can we could make
734. 01:16:56 governing bodies aware that there are two vacancies on this committee preparing governance
735. 01:17:02 yeah thank you councilista this was raised at the
736. 01:17:06 february sorry the march or the april committee and was reported the we go out every other term to ask
737. 01:17:15 it published in the newsletter for for governors we went it goes out in the newsletter which is circulated
738. 01:17:21 to the school office to disseminate we have to do that under the regulations we have to ask at least
739. 01:17:27 every six months for to fill those vacancies as you say we've got lisa is one of the parent governor
740. 01:17:33 reps on here so the next we asked again and for the last three or four circulations apart from lisa we've
741. 01:17:41 had no expressions of interest so it went out in may it's probably due to go out again just before
742. 01:17:46 christmas for a reminder so tell your governors to keep an eye out for that but lisa allen online
743. 01:17:57 thanks jay i just wanted to come in on that slightly now i think when i spoke to kerry when i took
744. 01:18:02 i sort of volunteered myself for this role and i think i was the only one that has put myself
745. 01:18:07 forward for a significant number of years and those vacancies continue to be unfilled and
746. 01:18:13 i work in education my other half is a primary head teacher in in rexham county and the accessibility
747. 01:18:21 of the information when it relates to governing bodies is not accessible for people and
748. 01:18:27 like i say i work in education so i'm well aware of like the terminology and and i know that this stuff
749. 01:18:32 is statutory so it has to be sort of said in a different way but if we could try and make some of
750. 01:18:37 that information more accessible for people to understand what their role actually entails what
751. 01:18:44 a governing body is for what the role is within a committee like this and i think you may find that
752. 01:18:51 more people are willing to to volunteer if that information is provided in a more accessible user
753. 01:18:56 friendly parent focused sort of way the outcome of our thank you lisa and councillor sean bibby maybe
754. 01:19:08 just an observation also is that i don't think two o'clock on a thursday afternoon is probably the
755. 01:19:14 the best time for a busy parent trying to you know go to work and you know raise their family can't
756. 01:19:21 imagine it being the most convenient time really for them to come to a meeting
757. 01:19:26 and perhaps i should have said earlier when we were talking about training so one of the um
758. 01:19:37 discussion points in our inspection report particularly in recommendation two around the
759. 01:19:44 issue of school deficit budgets obviously there was huge recognition of the work of the finance team
760. 01:19:49 in supporting schools in managing their budgets but there was a recognition that sometimes schools
761. 01:19:54 and government bodies do not take timely enough action in terms of that it's difficult and we all
762. 01:19:59 recognize they are difficult decisions around managing the budget and then any potential workforce
763. 01:20:12 commitment to do some more training with led by our finance colleagues and
764. 01:20:15 our HR colleagues for for governors you know particularly to focus on those
765. 01:20:20 tricky areas around finance and HR processes I know we offer redundancy
766. 01:20:26 type training every year that governors are invited to attend alongside school
767. 01:20:30 leaders so just to let you know there is a commitment to try and increase the
768. 01:20:33 amount of training around those two particular issues because we know those
769. 01:20:37 are the things that governors find particularly difficult and again it is
770. 01:20:40 in response to audit Wales is sort of view that you know having looked at and you
771. 01:20:46 know when schools are in difficulty perhaps you know that action isn't
772. 01:20:49 always taking us quickly enough so we're responding to that hopefully in a positive
773. 01:20:54 way thank you Claire any other speakers and the recommendation is only to note the
774. 01:21:01 report so we'll move on to the next agenda item before we do that I think we
775. 01:21:07 need a mover to take us into exclusion of the press and public yes
776. 01:21:17 absolutely