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1. 00:00:04 okay welcome back uh we'll waste no time and we'll just get on with this uh our last meeting
2. 00:00:14 of the afternoon um agenda item number one apologies for absence so chair if we just note
3. 00:00:24 the previous apologies and then add any more are there any more to add chair thanks the banks
4. 00:00:32 okay uh agenda item number two declaration of interest
5. 00:00:46 that's fran lister thank you chair i am declaring a personal interest in um the agenda item um about
6. 00:00:55 the nation of sanctuary because i was a sponsor for a ukrainian family under the homes for ukraine screen
7. 00:01:00 that was um very much part of wales's nation of sanctuary commitment so i feel i have to declare
8. 00:01:06 a personal interest our our residents are no longer with uh living with us um they they are elsewhere
9. 00:01:12 and independent however and we maintain close like family um relationship with them sponsor parker
10. 00:01:20 yeah chair i'm i too am declaring a personal interest before the um illegal full-scale invasion
11. 00:01:28 by russia of ukraine um when that happened i i was instrumental in setting up a translation service
12. 00:01:37 i worked with sanctuary uk i worked with dave johnny at the council um and with many uh volunteers
13. 00:01:44 particularly ukrainian and russian volunteers who provided a valuable translation service so on that
14. 00:01:51 basis i'd like to declare a personal interest thank you any more declarations of interest please
15. 00:02:02 uh agenda item number three urgent matters as agreed by chair this time there are none um
16. 00:02:09 chair council jones i know we've dealt with the constitution changes in the last meeting
17. 00:02:23 um and given that there has been a challenge to whether that is the correct thing to do um i'm just
18. 00:02:31 wondering whether my counterpart council crease might want to uh put the item again under this section
19. 00:02:38 thereby eliminating the fact that um eliminating the uh by the indication of his him shaking his head the
20. 00:02:46 answer's no sorry he's shaking his head uh council creases shaking his head if i can finish to explain
21. 00:02:52 maybe maybe there's i haven't spoken to my colleague um but if there's been a challenge and council's
22. 00:03:00 advice is anticipated um it would be exactly the same thing but we would be able to discuss the item again
23. 00:03:06 in the same way we could say the same things but what it would do it wouldn't become reliant
24. 00:03:12 it wouldn't become reliant on council's advice so it would just be a way of doing exactly the same thing
25. 00:03:18 um and no i think it's more fair chair because then it wouldn't be reliant on external advice and i just
26. 00:03:25 i'd probably expect the uh monitor officer to to rule on that but i think it's a fairly sensible way of doing it
27. 00:03:31 to get everything completed rather than waiting on external advice um so i i ask the monitoring
28. 00:03:38 officers advice on this before i refer to my colleagues yes um yeah you could uh in theory
29. 00:04:02 rule that we run through the debate again um we don't have uh whilst we have a six month rule um they
30. 00:04:12 are um actually chair i'm sorry no sorry i'm yeah no chair we we've got we've got we've got rules that
31. 00:04:29 say you can't debate something or rescind something that's been considered within the last six months
32. 00:04:35 you can't you can't rescind something that's been decision made this decision made within the last
33. 00:04:39 six months you can't propose something that has previously been rejected in the last six months
34. 00:04:45 clearly that item was not rejected at the moment chair what you have is a question about the validity
35. 00:04:55 of a decision um there are ways of dealing with the validity of that
36. 00:05:00 that's not taken um indeed they might involve um the instruction of council um but does that create
37. 00:05:13 a need to act chair uh oh well i can see you shaking your head and that is a question you know we we
38. 00:05:21 decided whether or not to take this as urgent on the basis that there was a need to act
39. 00:05:26 um and i'm if if you're not satisfied chair that there's a need to act then it's not urgent
40. 00:05:32 councillor crease thank you i i just wanted to ask a question of the chief officer of governance if the
41. 00:05:43 validity of the previous meeting has been called into question surely the action of others if we were to
42. 00:05:51 discuss this would change the validity of this meeting because this meeting was called out with
43. 00:05:57 the time period this meeting was requisitioned at a different time by a different councillor that's why
44. 00:06:09 it's a different meeting and i i'm i'm just looking uh to councillor brown who requisitioned the meeting
45. 00:06:18 i think did we get this one in time ch councillor brown i don't know i agree to the extension okay
46. 00:06:25 put that one to bed okay can i come back if you don't mind i'll withdraw the uh request uh i appreciate
47. 00:06:43 that uh councillor jones because i wasn't allowing it we're just going to get on with this meeting now
48. 00:06:47 i'll withdraw the request so agenda item number four is the requisition notice that's on pages three to
49. 00:07:01 four and this one is uh entitled withdrawal from the nation of sanctuary program and representation to
50. 00:07:10 the uk government and this is from councillor helen brown and who would be your seconder please
51. 00:07:16 councillor brown council self-held okay councillor brown yes thank you i'm standing here to formally
52. 00:07:26 propose that this council steps back from our designation of the county of sanctuary i know this
53. 00:07:32 status was entered to with good intentions however our primary duty must now be to the practical realities
54. 00:07:40 facing the people who live work and pay taxes in this community right now our local resources are
55. 00:07:47 stretched to breaking point look at the pressure on our essential public services our social housing
56. 00:07:54 lists for an all-time high with local families waiting years for a home residents are struggling
57. 00:08:01 to secure vital gp appointments and nhs dental care in this country is almost impossible to access
58. 00:08:10 adding further strain to these services is simply unsustainable furthermore we must recognize that
59. 00:08:17 immigration asylum processing and housing policy are legal and financial responsibility of the national
60. 00:08:23 government and of the home office as a county council we simply do not um possess the specialized
61. 00:08:30 infrastructure the mental health services of the long-term budget requirements to manage integration
62. 00:08:36 effectively taking on these responsibilities locally creates creates expectations that we cannot
63. 00:08:43 realistically fulfill when local resources are diverted towards national or global issues issues it creates
64. 00:08:51 a sense of neglect among our permanent residents this breeds division rather than unity we need a council
65. 00:08:58 that focuses entirely on its core responsibilities fixing our roads supporting local social care protecting our
66. 00:09:06 public spaces and managing the local budget responsibly let us be a community that is kind law abiding and welcoming in our daily lives but let us stop committing this local authority status and that our local infrastructure cannot support it's time to prioritize this immediately
67. 00:09:25 and that our local infrastructure to provide everyday needs of our residents and formally withdraw from the county of sanctuary network do you want me to read the whole notice out yeah okay this so withdrawal from the nation of sanctuary program and representation to uk government
68. 00:09:44 this council notes that flinchy county council is a recognized nation of sanctuary local authority
69. 00:09:49 partition participation in the program is voluntary and is not statutory duty immigration asylum and border security
70. 00:09:57 the responsibility of the responsibility of the uk government and the home office residents have expressed concerns regarding locations of asylum accommodation and the impact that decisions made without meaningful local consultation may have on their community confidence public services and community safety
71. 00:10:15 this council believes the council's primary responsibility is to deliver high quality public services and represent the interests of the people of flinchia
72. 00:10:25 safety of well and the well-being of women and girls boys and men should remain a key consideration in all decisions affecting local communities local authorities should be consulted before significant asylum accommodation is established within their boundaries
73. 00:10:44 this council can fulfill its legal obligations under the equality and the human rights legislation without remaining a member of the nation of sanctuary program
74. 00:10:53 this council therefore resolves to withdraw flinchia county council from that program right to the home secretary requesting a greater engagement and consultation with local authorities before asylum accommodation is established or expanded within their communities
75. 00:11:11 b that the community safety is given due weight when decisions are made about the location and the management of the asylum accommodation
76. 00:11:19 c that the home office ensures appropriate safeguarding risk assessment and support arrangements that are in place for all asylum accommodation
77. 00:11:28 request that the leader of the council writes to the constituency members of the senate and members of parliament asking them to support these representations to the home office
78. 00:11:39 this motion seeks to refocus the council on its statutory responsibilities while representing residents concerns about local accountability
79. 00:11:50 public confidence community safety and the effective management of the immigration and the asylum system
80. 00:11:56 it also calls upon the uk government to ensure that local authorities are properly consulted and that safeguarding and public safety considerations
81. 00:12:04 including the safety of women and girls are fully considered when decisions are made about the asylum accommodation
82. 00:12:11 thank you that's a so called good evening i think it is now um i've written and printed out something here um
83. 00:12:27 that basically councillor brown has virtually covered everything that i wanted to say however
84. 00:12:35 i remember being elected in january i was put on the housing committee and i sat in this chamber
85. 00:12:43 and heard all the numbers and figures put to me about the homeless people in flintshire the people on the waiting lists the social housing
86. 00:12:55 i've knocked on more doors than anyone in this room literally thousands from the end of december right the way through the senate elections
87. 00:13:05 and spoke to the people on the doors the people on the streets we've had gazebos out and the the message
88. 00:13:12 is clear the people flintcher want us to represent them first they want us to reach out to the council to the housing
89. 00:13:24 which have been absolutely fantastic i've had four people housed locally in leeswood which really really
90. 00:13:33 touches me in the heart and it's it's that feeling that we're giving to the people of flintcher
91. 00:13:42 that they want to hear that we're looking out for them and i can't stress more than when everyone in this
92. 00:13:49 room go out next year and they start knocking on doors they're going to get the same message whatever
93. 00:13:55 political party they are representing or independence they'll get the same message they want to be heard
94. 00:14:04 the people of flintcher need to be heard and i just please call on everyone to just do the right thing
95. 00:14:12 it's not about ukraine it's not about any of that it's about the people of flintcher
96. 00:14:18 and i think that's what i think is the people of flintcher being looked after and housed first thank you
97. 00:14:23 that's the bill crease thank you chair i was startled by this motion mainly because
98. 00:14:33 i realized it's pretty much replicates a failed attempt in july at the senate by reform uk who tabled
99. 00:14:39 a very similar motion the motion was debate debated and defeated 52 to 38 i don't often speak positively of
100. 00:14:47 the senate but they deserve acknowledgement of that decision nevertheless i set myself four questions
101. 00:14:53 what is a nation of sanctuary what has nation of sanctuary cost who has benefited and how many of
102. 00:15:00 banks benefited so starting with what's a nation of sanctuary wills's nation of sanctuary is a welsh
103. 00:15:05 government policy launched in 2019 to help refugees and asylum seekers integrate integrate into welsh society
104. 00:15:13 this surely is something everyone of every political persuasion could agree on as a fundamentally good thing
105. 00:15:20 whatever is said by any political grouping wales has always been a nation which has attracted migrants
106. 00:15:26 i could be considered one myself however it's important to know the senate doesn't control immigration numbers
107. 00:15:32 or border rules which remain under the uk government authority but it does use devolved powers to support
108. 00:15:38 early access to healthcare education and language surely surely that's a good thing let's start with the
109. 00:15:46 numbers there were 3308 people awaiting asylum asylum application decisions in wales of july 2026
110. 00:15:54 of which 78 are in flintcher that 3308 represents 0.1 of the population of wales and if you put them
111. 00:16:03 all into the race cross ground it wouldn't even be one third full it's probably worth stating that the
112. 00:16:08 main reason people are coming to the uk is as a result of conflict worldwide international red cross
113. 00:16:16 informed us that there are 130 armed conflicts involving 60 countries currently this is double the
114. 00:16:23 number of wars being waged 15 years ago so coming to what an asylum seeker in wales actually gets
115. 00:16:30 whilst they're waiting a decision on their application they get housed at the expense of
116. 00:16:34 the home office the uk government and they're specifically prevented from working they also
117. 00:16:39 receive a basic payment of 49 pounds 18 pence per week to cover food toiletries clothing footwear travel
118. 00:16:46 etc if you're a pregnant mother or you have a child age one to three you get another five pounds a week
119. 00:16:54 if you have a baby under one you get an extra nine pounds 50 a week now there are occasions where
120. 00:17:00 meals are supplied by the accommodation provider and if this is the case the allowance to the individual
121. 00:17:07 is dropped to nine pounds 95 pence per week wouldn't even buy a packet of fags a lot of attention has
122. 00:17:16 also been focused on asylum seekers being housed in hotels but in wales this is not happening
123. 00:17:23 approximately 100 of the 3 300 in june or july were in hotels the vast vast vast majority were not
124. 00:17:31 accommodated net elves now if someone is granted refugee status or leave to remain they have 42 days
125. 00:17:38 to find a place to live and secure their own income much of the misinformation surrounding this is a
126. 00:17:44 perception that refugees get priority consideration for housing that's not true once a refugee is given
127. 00:17:52 right to remain they're treated exactly the same as any other member of society so what's it all costing
128. 00:17:57 from 2019 to 2025 there was a net cost of about 64 million on nationist sanctuary 58 million of that
129. 00:18:07 has been spent on ukrainian refugees but more specifically spent on paying people in wales to house
130. 00:18:15 ukrainian refugees it's the vast bulk of the remainder four million has been spent on helping
131. 00:18:21 them integrate into wales helping them integrate into well societies helping them into education learning
132. 00:18:27 english learning welsh helping them find work that figure is only 0.05 of the welsh budget over the six
133. 00:18:35 years let's not pretend that removing this money 700 000 pounds per year across all of wales is going
134. 00:18:42 to help that's just over 200 pound per year as a cost per individual that we've helped the project's about
135. 00:18:51 providing refuge safety stability to those fleeing issues in the land of their birth in flintcher the
136. 00:18:57 huge majority of recipients have been fleeing the war in ukraine that war being waged by a totalitarian
137. 00:19:03 regime from russia which invaded a sovereign state ukraine and occupied it perhaps we've all become
138. 00:19:10 numbed to the bombing of civilians their deaths and their maiming their displacement and the deliberate
139. 00:19:16 erasure of ukrainian culture language and heritage because it's routine daily news now it's on page
140. 00:19:23 three or four but the numbers are 17 605 civilian deaths 55 sorry council increase that is time two
141. 00:19:31 seconds yeah if you can sum it up in eight seconds you can go ahead 55 846 serious injuries to civilians
142. 00:19:38 some 250 to 300 000 military serious injuries and deaths and these are aware of the husbands wives sons and
143. 00:19:46 daughters or the people we're providing some solid thank you councillor crease i can't support the motion
144. 00:19:52 councillor marion baitman
145. 00:20:07 Thank you very much, Chair. Let me be clear from the outset, this is not about lack of compassion for people fleeing war, persecution or genuine danger.
146. 00:20:19 It's about accountability, community safety and the right of local people to have their voices heard.
147. 00:20:27 As we've heard, immigration and asylum are matters for the UK government and the Home Office, but local communities experience the practical consequences of decisions about asylum accommodation.
148. 00:20:45 That is why it is unacceptable for significant decisions affecting those communities to be made without meaningful consultation with the local authority and the residents concerned.
149. 00:21:03 Local people deserve to be informed, consulted and listened to.
150. 00:21:08 We have a responsibility to consider the safety and well-being of everyone in our communities, particularly vulnerable people, women, children, men and boys that require proper safeguarding arrangements through risk assessments and effective management of accommodation.
151. 00:21:31 These must be fundamental requirements, not afterthoughts.
152. 00:21:37 The principle is especially important in Flincher.
153. 00:21:41 As we've heard, the Council already faces considerable pressures on housing and the homeless register, social care and other essential services.
154. 00:21:51 It's therefore reasonable to expect the Home Office to work closely with this authority before making decisions that could place additional demands on our local residents.
155. 00:22:06 The Nation of Sanctuary approach is a policy commitment.
156. 00:22:09 It is not a substitute for our statutory responsibilities and we do not need membership of a program to demonstrate compassion, fairnessness or humanity.
157. 00:22:24 Our legal obligations remain and rightly so.
158. 00:22:28 This motion seeks greater accountability, meaningful consultation and proper consideration of community safety.
159. 00:22:37 It also calls the Home Office to recognise the importance of local knowledge when decisions affecting our communities are made.
160. 00:22:48 We have a clear local example of why that matters.
161. 00:22:54 Members will recall the planning application in my ward to change the use of Northrop Hall Country House Hotel to a hostel,
162. 00:23:04 accommodating more than 400 unvetted single male asylum seekers in temporary accommodation at the hotel to last for seven years and within its grounds.
163. 00:23:22 In my view, that proposal did not consider the families living virtually on site or the residents of Northrop Hall and the surrounding villages.
164. 00:23:32 The concerns raised by those communities deserved to be heard and carefully considered.
165. 00:23:39 And thankfully, on that occasion, the planning officers, the committee listened to the residents.
166. 00:23:48 The application was rejected.
167. 00:23:49 The decision demonstrated the value of local scrutiny and the importance of elected representatives responding to the community they serve.
168. 00:24:04 Chair, our first responsibility as elected representatives is to serve the people of Flintshire and to ensure that their concerns are heard.
169. 00:24:16 Consultation is not an obstacle to compassion.
170. 00:24:21 It is an essential part of responsible decision making.
171. 00:24:26 Thank you, Chair.
172. 00:24:28 And so, Simon Jones.
173. 00:24:35 Final councillors, I rise today.
174. 00:24:38 Final please.
175. 00:24:43 Chair, fellow councillors, I rise today to speak against this motion.
176. 00:24:46 And I do so not because I dismiss the concerns of our residents, not because I believe the Home Office always gets things right, and certainly not because I think community safety should be anything other than a priority.
177. 00:24:59 I oppose this motion because I believe it represents something far more troubling than its carefully chosen words might initially suggest.
178. 00:25:07 Let's be clear about what is being proposed.
179. 00:25:09 We are being asked to withdraw Flintshire from a commitment to being a place of sanctuary, a place where people fleeing war, persecution and unimaginable suffering can find safety, dignity and compassion.
180. 00:25:22 And for what purpose?
181. 00:25:24 The motion calls for better consultation with local authorities.
182. 00:25:28 I agree.
183. 00:25:29 It calls for proper safeguarding.
184. 00:25:31 I agree.
185. 00:25:31 It calls for community safety to be considered.
186. 00:25:34 Again, I agree.
187. 00:25:35 But none of those things require us to abandon our commitment to sanctuary.
188. 00:25:40 So I asked the proposer, what exactly does withdrawing achieve?
189. 00:25:44 Does it give Flintshire greater control over asylum accommodation?
190. 00:25:47 No.
191. 00:25:48 Does it give this council new powers over immigration?
192. 00:25:51 No.
193. 00:25:52 Does it make our communities safer?
194. 00:25:54 I've seen no evidence that it does.
195. 00:25:56 What it does do is send a message, and I believe that's entirely the wrong message.
196. 00:26:01 Chair, I want to raise the question of Ukrainian refugees.
197. 00:26:06 I've been immensely proud of Flintshire's response to the humanitarian disaster in Ukraine.
198. 00:26:11 Proud that we have helped people fleeing Vladimir Putin's brutal invasion, his indiscriminate attacks and the destruction of their homes and communities.
199. 00:26:20 We have opened our hearts to people who have lost almost everything, and rightly so.
200. 00:26:24 But I would ask Councillor Brown a simple question.
201. 00:26:28 Does she believe that the people of Ukraine deserve protection and compassion of this council?
202. 00:26:32 And if she does, and I sincerely hope she does, then surely that same compassion should extend to other people who are fleeing war, persecution and violence.
203. 00:26:41 Because suffering does not end.
204. 00:26:43 Because suffering does not become less deserving of our compassion simply because it happens outside of Europe.
205. 00:26:49 And human dignity does not change according to somebody's nationality, ethnicity or colour of their skin.
206. 00:26:56 Chair, I want to talk a moment about Christianity.
207. 00:26:58 We opened the day with a prayer.
208. 00:27:01 And whether we are Christians, follow another faith, or have no religious belief at all, I believe there are values that should unite us.
209. 00:27:07 Compassion, kindness, the dignity of every human being.
210. 00:27:11 One of those fundamental teachings of Christianity is to welcome the stranger.
211. 00:27:15 Not to welcome the stranger only if they speak our language.
212. 00:27:18 Not to welcome the stranger only if they share our culture.
213. 00:27:21 And certainly not to welcome the stranger only if their skin happens to be the same colour as ours.
214. 00:27:26 Christ did not teach us to measure the worth of another human being by where they were born.
215. 00:27:31 He taught compassion for the stranger, the vulnerable and those in need.
216. 00:27:36 I worry deeply about any political direction that risks making some people appear less deserving of our compassion,
217. 00:27:42 simply because they come from somewhere else.
218. 00:27:45 And that brings me to something I find particularly contradictory.
219. 00:27:48 Nigel Farage, the lead-up of Councillor Brown's party, has previously complained about travelling on a train
220. 00:27:52 and hearing people speaking languages other than English.
221. 00:27:55 Yet the Nations of Sanctuary approach actively supports programmes that help people learn English and Welsh.
222. 00:28:01 Programmes that encourage integration, communication and participation in our communities.
223. 00:28:06 Surely, if we genuinely want people to integrate, we should be supporting these efforts rather than distancing ourselves from them.
224. 00:28:13 You cannot complain about people trying to integrate while undermining the very principles of our communities.
225. 00:28:23 And I have to say, when I see political arguments that increasingly encourage us to regard vulnerable people with suspicion,
226. 00:28:29 simply because of their origins, I begin to detect the whiff of the jackboots.
227. 00:28:33 And I do not use those words lightly.
228. 00:28:36 History has shown us the dangers of dividing human beings into those who belong and those who do not.
229. 00:28:40 And history has shown us the importance of people being prepared to stand up and say enough.
230. 00:28:47 Chair, I want to return to something the proposal specifically highlights in her motion, the safety of women and girls.
231. 00:28:52 Of course, their safety matters.
232. 00:28:54 It matters enormously.
233. 00:28:54 But I would ask Councillor Brown whether she believes the actions of one refugee should lead us to regard all other potential offenders simply because they share the same immigration status.
234. 00:29:05 Because that would be a dangerous principle.
235. 00:29:07 Let me illustrate why.
236. 00:29:09 In the 2024 general election, Reform UK had five MPs elected to Parliament.
237. 00:29:15 One of those five, James McMurdoch, has been convicted of assaulting his then-girlfriend in an offence, which he received a custodial sentence.
238. 00:29:24 That's one out of five, 20% of Reforms MPs at the general election.
239. 00:29:29 Now, Chair, not for one moment am I suggesting this means 20% of Reform councillors, or indeed any Reform politicians, would commit offence against women.
240. 00:29:39 That would be unreasonable, and that is the difference between us.
241. 00:29:42 Chair, I will finish with this.
242. 00:29:44 We do not make flinchers stronger by turning our backs on vulnerable people.
243. 00:29:47 We do not make our communities safer by simply withdrawing their commitment to compassion.
244. 00:29:51 And we do not protect our own humanity by questioning the humanities of others.
245. 00:29:56 Thank you, Councillor Jones.
246. 00:29:58 Good chair.
247. 00:30:00 Councillor Andrew Parker, can I just please just remind, I know this is in passion debate from both sides, and emotions are running high.
248. 00:30:10 But can I just please remind you that there's five minutes on the clock, and I don't want to cut people off, and they're in the middle of a good speech.
249. 00:30:19 So please, can you keep him in that time constraint?
250. 00:30:23 Councillor Parker.
251. 00:30:25 Thank you, Chair, I try to keep within the five minutes.
252. 00:30:29 Before I turn to the substance, I think it's important that we recognise the context in which this debate is taking place.
253. 00:30:38 Exactly two weeks ago, Councillor Theresa Carberry was laid to rest.
254. 00:30:45 Theresa was widely respected across this chamber and across Flintshire for her compassion, her decency, and her determination to help people who had not always been dealt the best hand in life.
255. 00:30:57 Those qualities were recognised by political friends and opponents alike.
256. 00:31:02 Theresa, as many will know, championed the campaign for Flintshire to become part of the local authority of sanctuary movement in 2019.
257. 00:31:12 For that reason alone, I find it deeply disappointing that one of the first acts we are being asked to consider so soon after her sad passing is to dismantle it, part of a legacy she worked so hard to establish.
258. 00:31:28 Because this is not just about policy, it's about real people.
259. 00:31:32 It's about families fleeing war.
260. 00:31:34 It's about people escaping persecution.
261. 00:31:36 And it's about men, women and children who have arrived here having lost homes, livelihoods and in some cases, loved ones.
262. 00:31:43 As I mentioned earlier, I know this firsthand following Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
263. 00:31:50 I saw the work that this council and others did.
264. 00:31:53 And I was proud then Chair of this council.
265. 00:31:56 I remember the extraordinary effort made when we all came together to welcome people who were fleeing a brutal and unlawful war.
266. 00:32:06 I was proud that Flintshire chose compassion over indifference and that we chose practical support over political point scoring.
267. 00:32:14 And I was proud that when people arrived at our doors seeking refuge, we did not turn our backs on them.
268. 00:32:20 I have to say that I'm not so proud of this council today.
269. 00:32:24 This motion before us seeks to withdraw Flintshire from the National Sanctuary Programme.
270. 00:32:28 The proposer says that this is about consultation, community confidence and local accountability.
271. 00:32:35 Post-Chair, are legitimate concerns.
272. 00:32:37 Indeed, many members in this chamber would agree that when large-scale accommodation placements are proposed,
273. 00:32:42 there should be better engagement with local communities, local councillors and local authorities.
274. 00:32:47 And I agree that communities should be properly informed and consulted.
275. 00:32:51 Public services must be considered. Faithguarding must be robust.
276. 00:32:56 But none of those objectives require Flintshire to abandon the principles of being a place of sanctuary.
277. 00:33:03 None of them require us to send a message that refugees are somehow unwelcome here.
278. 00:33:09 None of them require us to walk away from the commitment that has defined Flintshire as a compassionate county.
279. 00:33:15 And I also note that on 6th of December 2023, during debate on my motion concerning the conflict in Gaza,
280. 00:33:23 Councillor Brown voted in favour of a resolution calling upon the Welsh Government to develop a Homes for Palestinians scheme
281. 00:33:30 to facilitate the temporary housing of people displaced by that conflict.
282. 00:33:35 I welcome that support at that time because that vote recognised a simple principle.
283. 00:33:39 When innocent people are caught up in war, we should seek to help rather than turn away.
284. 00:33:46 And that principle should not depend on where somebody comes from, what language they speak, what religion they follow, or the colour of their skin.
285. 00:33:54 It should apply equally to everyone.
286. 00:33:56 Yet if we are prepared to show compassion to one group of people displaced by war, why should we withdraw that compassion from others?
287. 00:34:02 That is why many people looking at motions such as this will inevitably ask whether some refugees are viewed differently from others,
288. 00:34:11 and whether the degree of humanity we are prepared to show depends on the colour of their skin.
289. 00:34:17 Chair, the real question before us today is what sort of county do we want Flintshire to be?
290. 00:34:23 Do we want a county that stands with people fleeing war and persecution?
291. 00:34:26 Do we want to uphold the values that Theresa Carvey championed?
292. 00:34:30 Do we want to remain a county that says humanity, compassion and solidarity matter?
293. 00:34:35 Or do we wish to send precisely the opposite message?
294. 00:34:39 I know where I stand. I believe Flintshire is stronger when it is welcoming, when it is compassionate,
295. 00:34:45 and when it refuses to abandon people in their hour of greatest need.
296. 00:34:48 For those reasons, and in memory of Theresa Carvey and the many people she sought to help, I urge members to reject this motion.
297. 00:34:57 Do you often bear?
298. 00:35:02 Councillor Mike Piers.
299. 00:35:04 Thank you. I speak in support of the motion.
300. 00:35:16 It is straightforward, I will argue that the county council should withdraw as a county of sanctuary under the Wales Nation of Sanctuary Programme.
301. 00:35:24 I believe the policy that we have places pressure on public services and is not appropriate at a time when many of our communities are facing challenges.
302. 00:35:35 This is not about rejecting compassion.
303. 00:35:38 The country has always been a welcoming place, the history of supporting refugees, based on work undertaken as part of the Syrian refugee program,
304. 00:35:48 the work which is continuing supporting the Afghan refugee program, and the refugees from Ukraine.
305. 00:35:55 These refugees will have travelled to the UK legally, and our identities will be known to the authorities and well documented.
306. 00:36:03 Our communities have stepped up repeatedly to support those in need, but compassion must be matched with realism,
307. 00:36:12 and our decisions must be grounded in the needs of the people of Flinshire who are elected to serve.
308. 00:36:18 Right now, Flinshire faces enormous pressures.
309. 00:36:21 On 28th September 2021, the council presented a report entitled Becoming a Nation of Sanctuary,
310. 00:36:31 and the question was asked whether Flinshire should become a county of sanctuary.
311. 00:36:35 The decision to become a county of sanctuaries was based on the City of Sanctuary's vision that the UK will be a welcoming place of safety for all,
312. 00:36:48 and I emphasise for all.
313. 00:36:52 It has since transpired that there are serious flaws in that original vision,
314. 00:36:58 as we can no longer be a welcoming place for all.
315. 00:37:02 We can't have an open door, or accept those who are not fleeing violence and persecution.
316. 00:37:10 The illegal immigrants are turning up on our shores on almost daily basis, hundreds a day,
317. 00:37:16 and subsequently housed in communities where residents do not feel safe amongst their presence.
318. 00:37:22 The county of sanctuary scheme asks Flinshire to make promises we cannot realistically sustain.
319. 00:37:30 Under the county of sanctuary commitment, we are expected to take on additional responsibilities.
320. 00:37:36 Responsibilities that go beyond what local authorities should be expected to carry,
321. 00:37:41 especially when the immigration policy is made entirely by the UK government.
322. 00:37:47 We do not control who arrives.
323. 00:37:50 We do not control how many people are here.
324. 00:37:53 We do not control the funding that follows them.
325. 00:37:56 But we do carry the consequences.
326. 00:37:58 So, whilst the county has welcomed its fair share of refugees,
327. 00:38:06 it cannot continue with the original vision that created the county of sanctuary,
328. 00:38:14 where it says we are a welcoming place of safety for all.
329. 00:38:19 We cannot do that.
330. 00:38:20 As I said, we have supported refugees.
331. 00:38:25 But we cannot continue being an open door for everyone.
332. 00:38:32 The current issue of the Flinshire being a county of sanctuary is based on an outdated council report.
333. 00:38:38 Because if applied to the letter, those migrants arriving illegally with unknown backgrounds,
334. 00:38:45 and in a lot of cases their identities deliberately concealed, would be welcome, irrespective of their background,
335. 00:38:54 of the county of sanctuary port section 1.2.
336. 00:38:58 This cannot be correct.
337. 00:39:01 Another reason why the county of sanctuary is now outdated in Flinshire,
338. 00:39:08 it is because under inclusiveness,
339. 00:39:11 we are required to welcome and respect people from all backgrounds.
340. 00:39:15 People whose backgrounds no one knows, including the authorities.
341. 00:39:21 This is unacceptable.
342. 00:39:23 We cannot continue to be a county of sanctuary for all,
343. 00:39:27 and be part of the Nation of Sanctuary programme,
344. 00:39:31 based on the proposals agreed in 2021,
345. 00:39:35 because times have moved on since then.
346. 00:39:39 And for the reasons I've outlined,
347. 00:39:42 I would ask the council to consider and agree with the motion put forward by Councillor Brown.
348. 00:39:50 Thank you.
349. 00:39:52 Councillor Fran Lister.
350. 00:39:54 The old chair.
351. 00:39:55 It will be no surprise to anyone, given the personal interest previously declared,
352. 00:39:59 that I am speaking against any motion entitled withdrawal from the Nation of Sanctuary.
353. 00:40:04 And if you don't mind, Cher, I'd like to share my family's story and what being a nation
354. 00:40:08 of sanctuary has meant both to us and to the family we welcomed into our home.
355. 00:40:12 When the war broke out in Ukraine, I remember probably like loads of others in this room,
356. 00:40:17 obsessively watching the news and listening to Ukraine cast, absolutely shocked at the horror that was being unleashed
357. 00:40:23 on innocent people, on families just like mine, on parents, on children who simply happened to be living
358. 00:40:29 in the wrong place at the wrong time, unlucky in the postcode lottery.
359. 00:40:33 So we felt absolutely compelled to help and we were able to, thanks to the Homes for Ukraine scheme.
360. 00:40:44 So we absolutely did that and we welcomed Yulia and her two beautiful daughters to our home.
361. 00:40:50 When they arrived, they gradually began to recover from the shock and decompress after living in constant fear.
362. 00:40:58 And actually come to terms with the overwhelming loss of control over their own futures.
363. 00:41:03 It wasn't a case for them of, oh, let's move to the UK for a better life.
364. 00:41:07 They faced an absolutely impossible choice.
365. 00:41:10 Stay in Ukraine, live in constant fear or leave behind their homes, their hopes for the future.
366. 00:41:17 And the people that they loved, they had to split up their family unit, leaving their husband, her husband behind.
367. 00:41:22 And the hope of finding safety. And that was a choice forced on them by war.
368. 00:41:29 Support came though in Flintshire from absolutely every direction.
369. 00:41:34 We felt compelled to help along with so many other people who live in my community and the wider community.
370. 00:41:41 We had donations, we had emotional support, translation services and Dave Jolly's team here in the council worked tirelessly to help families resettle.
371. 00:41:51 And Yulia and her parents were absolutely desperate to work.
372. 00:41:55 And this is important. They were desperate to work and earn a living and contribute and support themselves.
373. 00:42:01 Yulia's parents are still here in the UK. They are entirely self-supporting, working long, long hours, paying their council tax and contributing to our public services.
374. 00:42:12 And I might add, they offer to help at every opportunity, any spare time they have, they are there.
375. 00:42:19 And they are so full of gratitude for everyone who helped them.
376. 00:42:22 During the nine months Yulia and the girls lived with us, our children, and this is where I'll get emotional,
377. 00:42:30 overcame those language and cultural barriers. It became really good friends.
378. 00:42:35 These people enriched our lives, just as the Syrian and Afghan refugees who attended the school where I worked, enriched our school community.
379. 00:42:44 They brought different perspectives, cultures, languages and experiences. They shared their traditions, we shared ours. We shared food.
380. 00:42:54 They demonstrated such extraordinary resilience, determination and positivity in circumstances that most of us can barely imagine.
381. 00:43:02 They helped us to appreciate what we have. And they showed our young people that the world is so much bigger than the communities that they've grown up in.
382. 00:43:16 So last night, as I was writing this, I asked my sons what they thought about having Yulia and the girls living with us for nine months.
383. 00:43:23 And they said, it was so good we were able to help. It wasn't their fault that war broke out.
384. 00:43:29 And we could help them get away and be safe.
385. 00:43:32 So straight up the Mount of Babes, we provide us a basic human right to feel safe.
386. 00:43:39 It wasn't easy. But would I do it again in a heartbeat?
387. 00:43:45 Because I know what it meant to my family. And I know what it meant to them.
388. 00:43:50 Which is why I found this motion so deeply offensive.
389. 00:43:53 A divisive attempt to peddle a harmful narrative that a tiny percentage of the nation's population seeking sanctuary from war and persecution is somehow responsible for our domestic and economic difficulties.
390. 00:44:06 That is completely unacceptable. If the tables were turned, if it were our homes being bombed, our children being uprooted, our families fleeing an illegal war, we would hope that somewhere in this big world there were decent people prepared to open their doors and help us.
391. 00:44:24 And that's what the people of Blincher did for Yulia and her family.
392. 00:44:28 And that's what being part of the nation of sanctuary means to me.
393. 00:44:32 These discussions affect real people, real families and real lives, and we cannot lose sight of our shared humanity.
394. 00:44:40 The only difference between our children and those fleeing war is which end of the postcode lottery you happen to be born in.
395. 00:44:49 Today we are in a position to offer sanctuary. Tomorrow we might be the ones desperately hoping that someone, somewhere, would show us the same compassion.
396. 00:44:59 Which is why I am voting against this motion.
397. 00:45:02 Councillor Richard Jones.
398. 00:45:12 Thank you, Chair. I am aware of the strength of feeling that this subject brings.
399. 00:45:17 Let's remember that the Home Office in central government is responsible for the regulation and laws regarding refugees and asylum seekers.
400. 00:45:24 It's my belief that all costs to local authorities should be borne by the Home Office.
401. 00:45:28 It's not, and it's not right, but that isn't the case.
402. 00:45:32 But what I cannot say is that I am willing to sacrifice my principles if we don't get that money.
403. 00:45:37 I will not agree to a withdrawal to the nation's sanctuary because it would really affect people fleeing war and persecution.
404. 00:45:44 To do that would be cowardly and insensitive to the needs of others.
405. 00:45:48 If someone came to my front door in fear of their life, I'd let them in regardless of where they were from.
406. 00:45:52 I'd just want to help. And I think most fair-minded people would do the same.
407. 00:45:57 It's lobbying of central government that's required to provide full-cost recovery from the Home Office to local authorities,
408. 00:46:02 not the withdrawal from a scheme that can help people regardless of where they come from.
409. 00:46:06 To do that would be unfair and mean.
410. 00:46:09 So what does Wales spend on this initiative? And some of these figures have come out already.
411. 00:46:14 Between 2019 and 2025, the Welsh Government spent 0.05 of its total budget on the Nation of Sanctuary initiative.
412. 00:46:22 A total of 63.87 million. With 58.22 of that spent on supporting Ukrainians fleeing war in their own country.
413. 00:46:30 So by insisting on this withdrawal, you would have taken away that only support that Ukrainian people would have got.
414. 00:46:38 Who through no fault of their own would have found themselves needing their protection for their families from war and persecution.
415. 00:46:44 Is that what we're advocating? Is that what we've really come to?
416. 00:46:48 Have we become so mean and inward looking that we wouldn't help? Because that would affect our actions.
417. 00:46:55 According to the latest Home Office figures as of the 30th of September, 2025, there were 8,328 Ukrainians and 1,028 Afghans who supported the UK efforts in Afghanistan being supported through this scheme.
418. 00:47:11 This notice of motion doesn't mention anything about financial support once. By all means, let's petition the central government to pay for the consequences of Home Office regulation.
419. 00:47:21 But not this. I cannot support such a proposal. Thank you, Chief.
420. 00:47:26 Thank you, Chief. Before I start, I'd like some clarification, please.
421. 00:47:38 The title of this is Withdrawal from the Nature of the Nation of Sanctuary Programme.
422. 00:47:46 The Council notes, it says Flintshire County Council is a nation of sanctuary local authority, participation in the programme.
423. 00:47:55 And it believes that the Council can fulfill its legal obligations, etc. without remaining a member of the Nation of Sanctuary Programme.
424. 00:48:07 And finally, to withdraw Flintshire County Council from the Nation of Sanctuary Programme.
425. 00:48:13 I say that because I've heard several references during the debate today, talk about county of sanctuary.
426. 00:48:23 And I'd like a ruling because I'm not, I like an exact, I'm like a counter-ribitzing to be honest.
427. 00:48:28 I like an exactitude of words when we're talking about things.
428. 00:48:31 So let's, can I just check here.
429. 00:48:34 The Nation of Sanctuary is a Welsh Government policy.
430. 00:48:41 It is not a membership organisation.
431. 00:48:44 So I am not clear how we can withdraw from a Welsh Government policy.
432. 00:48:53 I am not sure how we can be a member of that policy when it is not a membership organisation.
433. 00:49:03 So I would ask the Chair to rule whether statements about withdrawing from a programme, the Nation of Sanctuary Programme,
434. 00:49:12 which are quite clearly something we can't do, should remain in this motion.
435. 00:49:18 So I have that decided first before I move on. Thank you.
436. 00:49:34 I'm going to confirm with the mover of the motion.
437. 00:49:40 Are you referring to the Nation of Sanctuary Programme as is written in the paperwork?
438. 00:49:47 Councillor Helen Brown.
439. 00:49:48 Well, Chair, just to help with clarifying that question, of course, as was pointed out,
440. 00:49:53 it was the resolution that the county passed was the County of Sanctuary Resolution.
441. 00:49:58 And as Councillor Johnson has said, we've had a number of references to that.
442. 00:50:05 I think the intention is that that's what people were referring to.
443. 00:50:11 Councillor Holland Brown.
444. 00:50:13 Yeah, I did say, so my opening statement was that to step back from our designation of a County of Sanctuary.
445. 00:50:19 You might have missed that bit.
446. 00:50:21 Okay, Councillor Johnson.
447. 00:50:25 Thank you.
448. 00:50:27 In which case, I'm not very impressed with the knowledge around this area.
449. 00:50:32 There's a very, very clear difference between the Nation of Sanctuary and the County of Sanctuary.
450. 00:50:36 That should have been reflected in this.
451. 00:50:38 So before motions casually throw around phrases like Nation and County of Sanctuary,
452. 00:50:43 they should be correctly put in with that.
453. 00:50:46 I still find it very, very difficult.
454. 00:50:48 Therefore, do I assume that this has to be amended?
455. 00:50:51 No.
456. 00:50:54 So I just think it's a nonsense.
457. 00:50:56 And I will leave it there.
458. 00:51:00 Thank you.
459. 00:51:01 Are there any more speakers on this debate before Councillor Richardson?
460. 00:51:13 Thank you, Chair.
461. 00:51:32 Let me make one thing clear from the outset.
462. 00:51:34 This is not about a lack of compassion.
463. 00:51:37 We can treat people with dignity and respect without agreeing that a County should retain a political position
464. 00:51:43 that places additional expectations on public services already under considerable pressure.
465. 00:51:49 My responsibility is to the residents of Flinshire,
466. 00:51:52 the people who elected us, the families who work hard, pay the taxes,
467. 00:51:56 and expect their council to deliver the services they depend on.
468. 00:52:00 But before we continue with commitments under the banner of a County of Sanctuary,
469. 00:52:05 I believe we have a duty to ask some very basic questions.
470. 00:52:08 What does it cost?
471. 00:52:09 Who pays?
472. 00:52:10 And what are our residents being asked to sacrifice?
473. 00:52:13 We repeatedly hear that there is no money available.
474. 00:52:16 Street scene points towards funding pressures.
475. 00:52:18 Flinshire County Council points towards the centre.
476. 00:52:21 The centre points towards Westminster.
477. 00:52:23 Everyone seems to have someone else to blame.
478. 00:52:25 But at what point does somebody take responsibility?
479. 00:52:28 Our residents do not get to pass their household bills to somebody else.
480. 00:52:32 They have to balance the budget, make difficult decisions, and live with their means.
481. 00:52:36 Why should we expect anything less from the institutions spending their money?
482. 00:52:40 And when Westminster is spending billions of pounds on asylum accommodation,
483. 00:52:45 we have every right to question whether taxpayers are getting value for money.
484. 00:52:49 The House of Commons Public Accounts Committee reported that 2.7 billion was spent on an asylum accommodation
485. 00:52:56 by the Home Office in 2024-2025.
486. 00:52:59 That's billion, not million.
487. 00:53:00 That is an enormous sum of public money.
488. 00:53:02 We should be asking whether the system is efficient, whether waste is being eliminated,
489. 00:53:08 and whether the government is getting the grip of the costs.
490. 00:53:12 If Westminster is asking councils to manage with limited resources,
491. 00:53:16 then Westminster must also explain its own spending decisions.
492. 00:53:19 Taxpayers deserve to know where their money is going, and what value they are getting in return,
493. 00:53:24 and why essential local services are so often expected to do more with less.
494. 00:53:29 We cannot simply keep passing the book down the line and expect residents to accept that as an answer.
495. 00:53:34 I have been asking street scene throughout this year for solid information on how much Flinchot County County
496. 00:53:39 is spending on the recycling bags.
497. 00:53:41 Not an estimate dressed up as an answer, not a vague response.
498. 00:53:44 I want a clear, reliable figures that allowed councillors to understand the costs of the taxpayer,
499. 00:53:49 yet it is still to receive the firm information I have been seeking.
500. 00:53:53 If we cannot get a straightforward answer about the cost of recycling bags,
501. 00:53:56 how are residents supposed to have confidence that every pound is being properly accounted for?
502. 00:54:00 And while we are talking about recycling bags, I am not sure I am the only councillor
503. 00:54:05 who sees them scattered in ditches, coursing bushes, lining gutters and then growing across the waste land.
504. 00:54:10 But for Richardson, that is not part of the debate.
505. 00:54:12 Can you stick to the topic of the debate, please?
506. 00:54:15 With budget restraints apparently hitting services, you would be forgiving for thinking some of our recycling centre
507. 00:54:21 and connect centres are closed almost as often as they are open.
508. 00:54:24 Perhaps we need a recycling bag for the recycling bags, because at this rate we are going round in circles.
509. 00:54:30 If we can find the money to keep replacing bags, surely we can find the figures to tell us how much we are spending on them.
510. 00:54:39 We have local services to maintain, roads, pay rooms to look after, waste collections to deliver,
511. 00:54:45 and vulnerable residents in our own communities who need support.
512. 00:54:49 Our residents expect us to get the basics right.
513. 00:54:52 Can I just pause you there? Sorry, Councillor Richard.
514. 00:54:55 There are several conversations going on in the room. I want to hear just one. Thank you.
515. 00:55:00 I want to know what being a county of sanctuary means in practice, what responsibilities it creates,
516. 00:55:08 what additional costs might arise, and which budgets would meet the cost.
517. 00:55:12 If the answer is that there is no additional cost, then demonstrate that clearly.
518. 00:55:16 And if the council cannot provide those answers, why should Flincher continue to endorse the position in the first place?
519. 00:55:22 This is not about turning our backs on people in need.
520. 00:55:25 It is about recognising what we have responsibilities to our own county communities.
521. 00:55:30 So our residents deserve a council that puts local needs first, scrutinise spending,
522. 00:55:35 and is prepared to challenge decisions when the evidence does not justify.
523. 00:55:41 We should not be afraid to question government policy.
524. 00:55:44 We should be not afraid to challenge spending decisions.
525. 00:55:47 And we should certainly not be afraid to ask for evidence before allowing public money or public services committed to further obligations.
526. 00:55:55 Chair, I will continue to ask the awkward questions whether that is part of my job as an elected representative.
527. 00:56:01 I will continue to challenge the playing game between streaks and Flincher Council, the centre, then Westminster.
528. 00:56:10 I will continue to demand transparency on how taxpayers' money is spent, whether that involves millions of pounds on asylum accommodation,
529. 00:56:18 or the cost of recycling bags blowing around our streets.
530. 00:56:22 Because the principle is exactly the same.
531. 00:56:24 Public money belongs to the taxpayer, and the taxpayer deserves answers.
532. 00:56:29 I am proud to represent my residents, and it will continue to put their residents first, and I support this notice of motion.
533. 00:56:38 Councillor CRIEWIC-Councillor Christine Jones.
534. 00:56:40 Thank you.
535. 00:56:41 Thank you.
536. 00:56:49 Thank you.
537. 00:56:50 D'Alc, Chair Penander.
538. 00:56:53 It's been a long day, and I'm not going to keep, I'm not going to say a great deal.
539. 00:56:58 All I want to say is Councillor Parkhurst mentioned our really good friend, Councillor Theresa Carberry, who we all miss dearly,
540. 00:57:07 and who did an awful lot in mould and surrounding areas in Flincher for the County Sanctuary,
541. 00:57:14 and for all the people who have come in and we've cared for.
542. 00:57:19 But Councillor Hilary McGill was also really dedicated to the young people and families who came in.
543. 00:57:29 She took them into her home as well, did she not?
544. 00:57:32 And she was very, very caring.
545. 00:57:34 Both councillors extremely caring.
546. 00:57:37 It's so nice to hear so many comments this afternoon from certain councillors about the people who come into our county,
547. 00:57:45 who we do look after.
548. 00:57:47 We are a caring county.
549. 00:57:49 I've always been proud to represent my ward in this county for that reason, because we do care.
550. 00:57:56 But leaving the county sanctuary would hurt me so much.
551. 00:58:02 I actually seconded the proposal when it came to us in 2021.
552. 00:58:10 I think Councillor Roberts actually proposed it and I seconded it.
553. 00:58:15 And I was proud to do so.
554. 00:58:17 And I think we should remain looking after those people who have come from persecution,
555. 00:58:24 from war-torn countries, left the homes, left everything behind.
556. 00:58:29 They come with nothing, nothing at all.
557. 00:58:32 Young people come here, young, 16, 17, 18 year olds, and they've got nothing.
558. 00:58:41 So they need us and they need our care, they need our love, they need our support.
559. 00:58:46 And I, for one, would be absolutely devastated if we took that care away from them.
560. 00:58:52 And I know Hillary and Theresa would be absolutely devastated.
561. 00:58:57 And for their legacy, I think we should stay as a county sanctuary deal.
562. 00:59:04 Councillor Rosmanso.
563. 00:59:05 Here we go. That's why you can't hear me.
564. 00:59:14 It's not often I do speak.
565. 00:59:16 But I'd like to say thank you for giving me the opportunity.
566. 00:59:20 I'd like to ask everybody in the forum tonight, if they've opened their arms to the Ukraine people.
567. 00:59:33 I think that would be a definite yes. Yeah?
568. 00:59:35 Yeah.
569. 00:59:36 Is that three people saying yes?
570. 00:59:38 Okay.
571. 00:59:39 I had no problems with that. I also helped.
572. 00:59:44 We were so pleased inviting all the Ukraine over, giving them the best we could.
573. 00:59:51 Invited. They lived in our homes.
574. 00:59:53 They went to our schools.
575. 00:59:55 They did everything.
576. 00:59:57 We didn't mind that.
577. 00:59:58 You know, come over. Great.
578. 01:00:00 come over great but things have slightly changed a little bit i'd like to ask the next question
579. 01:00:08 is as anybody can you just um say your part it's not to ask questions of anyone it's just to say
580. 01:00:15 okay so you're all in the greens that were quite happy inviting at ukraine over i had an experience
581. 01:00:24 whereas in in the part of flintshire there has been so many hmos that have sprouted up making lots and
582. 01:00:34 lots and lots of money for uh people who own them everything paid for gas electricity rates water
583. 01:00:43 rates everything is paid unfortunately it gets worse because the people now that are moving out
584. 01:00:53 selling their houses turning them into hmos are driving people out people are homeless
585. 01:01:02 i don't mind helping anybody i've done that i've had a bed and breakfast i've had all sorts
586. 01:01:08 but there comes a stage when whilst they're getting free gas free electricity free race free everything
587. 01:01:14 and we've got our own p yes true everything is all so so the pain to stay in hotels
588. 01:01:22 and we're not doing i've got this wrong yeah right i should carry on then so we're in a situation now
589. 01:01:37 whereas when does it stop we need to take back control that's what that's what we need to do just take
590. 01:01:47 back control stop taking money off people who are working hard nobody took any money from anybody when
591. 01:01:54 the ukraine came it was great we were saying doing it happily but i don't know why they didn't do that
592. 01:02:03 now why didn't they let all the people say right come into our houses come and live with us like they
593. 01:02:09 did with the regret ukraine i don't know why they did that all they're doing is just giving everybody
594. 01:02:13 the money money that we haven't got i'm not saying change anything all i'm doing is saying our future
595. 01:02:22 children they're going to suffer because they're not going to have anything because we'll have given
596. 01:02:28 it to everybody else take it that's funny yeah no okay thank you that's the show cross thank you jen
597. 01:02:42 a nation stroke county of sanctuary what does it mean to each of us is it just a statement does it just
598. 01:02:49 apply to now the last few years years or have we been a nation of sanctuary for hundreds of years
599. 01:02:54 without recognizing we are i look back in history and we have consistently done it in around 1850 between
600. 01:03:02 one and two million fled the people fled the famine in ireland and moved to break bit in other
601. 01:03:07 countries in the 1930s the jewish people did the same escaping the persecution of nazi germany
602. 01:03:14 in my lifetime we've seen the big vietnamese boat people in the late 70s after the fall of saigon
603. 01:03:21 and very recently we've welcomed in those fleeing wartime ukraine we must recognize we are and have for
604. 01:03:27 a very long time been a nation of sanctuary if not always in name thank you thank you ian hodge
605. 01:03:34 thank you chair here in wales it's basic how we fit for purpose to be a council of sanctuary we all have
606. 01:03:46 aspirations and dreams but what is the reality so we're here in wales what is the reality are we fit
607. 01:03:55 for purpose i don't think so in wales we face so many significant challenges our nhs is in emergency
608. 01:04:04 measures this council is struggling with budgets we have a housing shortage and homelessness which
609. 01:04:12 affects many communities and our public services are stretched to breaking point before taking on
610. 01:04:19 additional commitments we must assure that existing residents have access to the services they need
611. 01:04:27 with chronic homelessness and housing shortage how can we claim to be a council of sanctuary
612. 01:04:33 symbolic declarations made by the welsh government create expectations that wales may not have the
613. 01:04:40 authority or resources to fulfill its applications on being a council of sanctuary good intentions alone
614. 01:04:47 are not enough policies must be realistic and sustainable successful integration requires substantial
615. 01:04:55 investment language support education healthcare and employment programs all require funding and planning
616. 01:05:05 if these resources are inadequate both newcomers and existing communities can suffer
617. 01:05:11 potentially creating social tensions rather than fostering inclusion finally public policy should be
618. 01:05:19 based on careful assessment of costs benefit and long-term impacts while offering sanctuaries a noble aspiration
619. 01:05:27 it must be balanced against the practical responsibilities we have to taxpayers and local communities
620. 01:05:34 wales can remain welcoming and compassionate without formally adopting a policy that may
621. 01:05:40 place a date additional strain on already stretched services
622. 01:05:44 the public services our priority should strengthen our communities and public services for everybody who lives here
623. 01:05:52 and for these reasons i urge you to support the motion and i request a recorded vote thank you
624. 01:05:57 thank you okay bring out the um we've got attention
625. 01:06:08 is it more than enough right settle down please it's been a long day
626. 01:06:16 i've got a couple more speakers before i return to the mover of the uh motion which would be uh councillor
627. 01:06:24 brown who will have the right reply so before that i have got councillor married eastward and then
628. 01:06:30 councillor hadfield jones council eastward yes um we've heard many impassioned speeches today so i
629. 01:06:39 i don't want to take up time because it's uh they've been heartfelt and completely aligned with what i think
630. 01:06:46 um i originally put my hand up because councillor jones mentioned and councillor theresa carberry and i
631. 01:06:52 wanted to also mention councillor hillary mcgill who who made a lot of work she did a lot of work to welcome refugees and sound seekers into our communities where they were welcomed within our communities as well
632. 01:07:06 so i'm very proud of the work that she's done that was able to help help her and i'll be voting against this not just in my name but in their names too
633. 01:07:14 i also think it's very sad that this this motion has been brought now i'm standing here wearing my poppies
634. 01:07:23 and i do that as an act of remembrance for the people who have served and lost their lives
635. 01:07:28 and i also not just remember them but i remember why they fought and what they were fighting against
636. 01:07:34 and if we can stand here wearing our poppies and saying no we won't do it for other people well that's shameful
637. 01:07:44 yeah council i have field jones um i just want to start i think we need to look at this there's
638. 01:08:00 there's a misconception in terms of how people view this policy by some members in this room in this
639. 01:08:06 chamber um this is about real people as we've heard mentioned by lots of different people and this is
640. 01:08:14 this is about a misconception of economic woes that people complain about in this country but this is
641. 01:08:21 about helping real people in need this is about a policy that's a national process we are partners in
642. 01:08:30 that process with the welsh government in wales this is not about border control deciding who enters the
643. 01:08:37 united kingdom determine that asylum claims those responsibilities remain with the uk government
644. 01:08:47 the welsh government's role is different and i think this is really important to mention
645. 01:08:52 it supports people the process supports people already here in wales to help them rebuild their lives
646. 01:08:58 and integrate into their communities this includes the practical help they need in terms of language
647. 01:09:04 support in their communities employment pathways housing and so forth what i also want to mention is
648. 01:09:15 the actual stats which have been mentioned by a number of members 91 of the funding that was made
649. 01:09:21 available was for ukrainians escaping the horrors of war that is really important
650. 01:09:29 nine percent has been used and that's also covered that's what's covered afghan refugees
651. 01:09:36 and syrian refugees who have had to come here to escape persecution because they've worked with our
652. 01:09:41 armed services okay they are people we need to support
653. 01:09:48 this funding cannot be described as money used to facilitate the legal entry
654. 01:09:52 the legal entry to pay people to cross our borders illegally this distinction matters the aim of this policy
655. 01:10:02 is to support those who have been displaced by war and persecution these people have worked to provide for our economy
656. 01:10:11 the country i have businesses i'm in contact with ukrainians are making a contribution to our community our economy
657. 01:10:22 it's on this basis i urge members to reject this motion i don't want to keep people here we need to continue
658. 01:10:29 as part of this network and provide the compassion compassion that these people need thank you jockham
659. 01:10:35 well um a last minute hand went up so this is the last speaker um sorry councillor brown councillor turton
660. 01:10:49 thank you chair sorry it was a last minute um i wasn't going to speak but the compassion in the room
661. 01:10:54 is uh i i feel it from both sides i really do and council lister uh i applaud you for your what you've
662. 01:11:02 done for that family it's really really really good uh i am friends with a ukrainian family who live in
663. 01:11:08 england so it's no prejudice or personal interest uh they came here when the conflict started so but
664. 01:11:13 they're over in england uh but i'm speaking as a representative of my ward i think i'm the only
665. 01:11:19 councillor on the clincher now that is unaligned to any political party and that's the way that i feel
666. 01:11:24 that i can benefit my residents the best because i care for them not under an umbrella of somebody
667. 01:11:29 else uh but the basis of residents that i've spoken to and it was only a short time because it was a
668. 01:11:35 it was a last minute sort of meeting that we've arranged uh do want want me to vote for them to
669. 01:11:41 leave whatever we're going to call it the nation or the community of sanctuary uh it's probably about
670. 01:11:46 a 95 to 5 percent now again not a lot of people have come back to me but the ones that have have
671. 01:11:51 asked me to to represent them so that would be my decision it's not my personal choice i have that
672. 01:11:57 but i am voting for my voting on my residence which i've done in my four and a half years on the council
673. 01:12:03 uh i did share the documents that i was shared so i hope the residents who've come back to me and i've
674. 01:12:09 seen in the street have read those documents because it's a big document and they've took on board
675. 01:12:13 everything not just what the bbc news says now is what's wrong with the country etc etc so i'm hoping that
676. 01:12:21 and they've made an informed decision on what they want me as their representative to vote for when
677. 01:12:26 we do the vote in a few minutes time i just thought i'd better get that out before i'm slandered with
678. 01:12:32 from one side or the other because i've been called a few names in the last few weeks about
679. 01:12:36 when i speak to people but i am voting for harden and mancott residents who have took the time to
680. 01:12:41 contact me on this uh vote thank you very much okay so the rights of reply is uh for councillor helen brown
681. 01:12:51 counselor brown yeah thank you and thank you for for all the comments and we're probably going to agree
682. 01:12:57 to disagree um but something that council eastwood did touch on now let's not forget our veterans you
683. 01:13:04 know we are in debt to them a debt of honor that we our country owes to the brave men and the brave women
684. 01:13:10 who have worn the uniform of our armed forces when their service ends and they return to civilian
685. 01:13:16 life many face a heartbreaking reality they look for a place to call home the local connection
686. 01:13:24 requirement that is the red brick wall so whilst we're a nation of camp whilst we are a county of
687. 01:13:31 sanctuary what about looking after the veterans thank you okay we move to the vote and we're going to hand
688. 01:13:39 the microphone over to gareth thank you it's okay i think people can hear me from nature thank you um so
689. 01:13:45 councillor bateman you are this
690. 01:13:52 councillor bibi against councillor broccoli against councillor brown for councillor claydon against
691. 01:14:06 councillor collett against councillor crease against councillor rob davis against councillor ron davis
692. 01:14:21 obviously against chairman councillor davis cook we oh oh sorry i thought we lost you for a minute there
693. 01:14:30 i don't know i'm there a doubt i do apologize no no i'm i'm here um chris dolphin oh they've just left
694. 01:14:40 and and rosetta dolphin as well okay thank you councillor eastwood against councillor david evans
695. 01:14:49 councillor pharyn hadfield jones against councillor ian hodge for councillor david hughes against
696. 01:15:04 councillor ibbotson against councillor johnson again councillor christine jones against
697. 01:15:15 councillor richards jones against councillor simon jones with every fibre of my being against councillor
698. 01:15:25 lister ditto against councillor lloyd against councillor mackie against councillor madison against
699. 01:15:36 councillor mansell
700. 01:15:37 councillor mackie against councillor mackie against councillor mullin against councillor owen against
701. 01:15:57 councillor parkhurst against councillor pierce or that's the perfect
702. 01:16:04 councillor mackie against councillor mackie against councillor mackie against councillor
703. 01:16:13 thank you i do apologize for interrupting you i just realized i haven't made out your first name
704. 01:16:18 and then councillor vicky perfect against councillor brice against councillor richardson or
705. 01:16:30 councillor roberts against against councillor rose against
706. 01:16:36 councillor solkald councillor solkald or councillor shellcross against councillor josh swash against
707. 01:16:56 we've lost time is that correct yep um councillor thomas against councillor turton
708. 01:17:05 councillor councilor councillor roberts against councillor roberts against councillor
709. 01:17:21 councillor roberts against councillor roberts against councillor roberts against
710. 01:17:24 and yourself chair in memory of theresa and hillary against that's 10-4 and 37 against
711. 01:17:39 true and that is the end of the meetings for today i just want to say a quick thank you for everyone
712. 01:17:47 that's uh coming today it's been a very long and difficult and emotive day i want to thank all the
713. 01:17:52 officers uh that are here today but also the officers that have made uh facilitated everything over the
714. 01:17:58 last few weeks i know you've been working super hard thank you very very much for your indulgence have a