County Council - 01.07.26 (2)

AI-generated transcript — it may contain errors; the recording is the authoritative record.

1. 00:00:26 good afternoon members and welcome back okay we're going to go to uh agenda item number 10 now which is the schedule for remuneration quite hard to say that isn't it uh and that's the report of the chief officer of government steve mr goodrum will take the report mr goodrum's gonna take this i do remember that
2. 00:00:59 Thank you Chair. Good afternoon members. This report is what we need to bring to Council in July to ensure we publish the schedule of remuneration in accordance with the now Democracy Unbounded Commission Cummings requirements. What it basically outlines in Appendix 1 are the payments that we intend to make to members for the current civic year and they're all based around the annual report of the Democratic.
3. 00:01:27 democracy and boundary commission cymru um but states in their annual report which the goes to before the constitution and democratic service committee in march annually um we just need to make sure that we publish this by the end of the month so that's why it's coming to the council today for your um notes and approval um we will we do provide our uh publish an actual um summary of payments made to members for the previous year in september this is separate this is just the the base around the
4. 00:01:57 um dbcc annual report it has been updated um so it's current because there have been a number of changes um and that they are reflected within the documents as well so the vacancies etc are all um noted within the documents um and just draw members into paragraph 103 that there are some some allowances that the dbcc the form of the independent remuneration panel for wales um introduced to encourage more um
5. 00:02:25 more representation and encourage people to become elected members and so some allowances are designed to facilitate that such as the carers allowance um which we don't publish individual amounts we publish the total amount that the council has paid so if members are and can claim that in their choice which they should to choose to and and the appendix one um follows the template um laid down by
6. 00:02:52 what was the the ipw but now the dbcc they they set the the templates and again that's been refreshed with the the current um allowances they pay but also the the refresh rates from the the hmrc so the the new um they've increased the mileage claim rate for petrol vehicles to 55 pence per mile so and there are some minor tweaks in there but nothing significant but i'm happy to take any questions chair and counselor david coggins cogan
7. 00:03:25 Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you to the Democratic Services Manager. On page 166, I'm just going to use the title because I don't want to personalise it, but the Chair of the Cluid Pension Fund Committee, it says that a senior salary is paid. Because the senior salary bit isn't capitalised, it could just refer to a salary that is senior rather than a senior salary that is identified in here.
8. 00:03:53 um because it's this is essentially a transparency document for next year would it be worth adding that senior salary in even though it's paid by a different authority just for full transparency just so we all know what's what and the member of the public who are reading it would know as well thank you chair uh yes sure we can take that on board but i think the um the democracy and boundary commission cymru are looking at how they um the framework etc anyway so that it may well change for next year but we will take that on board
9. 00:04:26 uh councillor ian hodge thank you chair um this came before constitution and democratic services committee in november last year i chaired that committee and it was approved therefore i would like to move the recommendation was that's a second sorry councillor hodge i think gave councillor hoggins coban moved it soon no he didn't check oh you didn't oh okay so
10. 00:05:03 Apologies, Councillor Hodge. That's been moved by Councillor Hodge. Do we have a seconder? Councillor Coggins-Colven. Yes, Chair, I would like to second this. Councillor Hodge was the de facto chair of the committee, as the late Councillor Hillary McGrill was too poorly to continue in her role. Council has now appointed me to take over in that role, and so I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank Councillor Hodge.
11. 00:05:32 um for leaving the committee in a better state than who found it and it's made my job considerably easier taking it on thank you chair do we have anybody like to uh to speak on the item no we go straight to the vote then yeah so the recommendation is that the completed schedule of remuneration for uh 2026 27 as attached be approved for publication a show of hands please for everybody in favor of that
12. 00:06:16 certainly everybody in the room um show fans online sorry i think that's everybody online as well thank you so that's unanimous so that's uh unanimous that's carried thank you very much so move on to ordinary items of business now uh item number 11 is petitions received at council you can find them on pages 171 to 178 and
13. 00:06:49 This is the report of Steve Goodrum. Thank you, Chair. This is a report we bring back to Council twice a year just to give members an update on petitions that have been submitted through the floor at Council. As it says in the title, petitions read at Council. So any member who brings a petition to Council to present, this report captures those. We've changed it last time because we previously reported in the current...
14. 00:07:20 of the previous year previous 12 months what we found was there were some petitions that were sort of hanging over from previous years that were effectively dropped off so we include those now in this report and they are listed in paragraph 102 with an update on what situations with those so anything that any petition that doesn't reach conclusion um in the current year will be reported or updated in the following year and one point to note
15. 00:07:46 um is that there are other mechanisms to submit petitions to council which are not captured in this report so what we would look to do is to sort of expand the scope of the report to um to capture those as well so that we have a one one report for all and what we may look to in the future is sort of change the format site so we introduce an appendix with um the uh petitions listed on there in in date order which it updates so it's easy to reference rather than just list them all in 102 because paragraph 102 could get quite
16. 00:08:15 lengthy and um confusing for for the reader um but i'm happy to take any any questions on the content chair uh councillor ian hodge no if does anybody wish to speak is there a mover or a signature okay is there a mover or a second to them please as a hodge thank you chair uh i'd like to recommend uh recommend the motion please recommend the recommendation
17. 00:08:57 whatever it is move the recommendation thank you councillor hodge councillor cogan you could you just pop a microphone off please councillor hodge thank you and councillor mike piers online please uh yes thank you chair uh thank you for the uh the annual summary as it were i think it would be useful for members if we had some dates as petitions progress
18. 00:09:27 As an example, under 102, we have the 3rd of December 25. And seven months on, it doesn't appear to be resolved. It would be useful to have a date received and a date when it might be resolved and what's been happening in the meantime. For Meadowville is in Greenfield.
19. 00:09:56 22nd of the 7th 24 that's going back um quite a bit doesn't formally say whether it's resolved but i would assume it is by now and the report doesn't advise whether the residents would be prepared to bring the road to an adopted standard it says that they were consulted but i think um you know going forward it's
20. 00:10:25 you need a conclusion as to yes they were consulted and the outcome was no they don't wish to adopt it or it's going forward so i think we just need a bit more information in there and finally the 24th of the 9th 24 the speed of the traffic on the a5119 i think that was flint mountain again can uh dates be added it talks about initial response from the portfolio so
21. 00:10:54 When was that? And then there's an additional response from the portfolio. And has the petition been resolved? So I think to go through this, I think you need dates so you can have a look at how it's been progressing or whether there's been delays anywhere. The dates will be available. I think you just need to put them in the report. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Pearce, for that. And that's a fair point. And what I did sort of allude to in the
22. 00:11:26 commentary that we will look to how we present this report in the future so to include an appendix rather than in the body of the report so we can include those uh elements that you suggest they're like dates of updates etc so um we will set that on board and ensure that it's demanded for the next um presentation okay uh comes ibbotson thank you madam chair and i invite members to turn to page 174 175 of the document pack
23. 00:11:55 where on the 4th of December 2024 there is a reference to a petition that was presented by myself on behalf of residents of my ward and further afield who are concerned about the school transport policy and the way in which children are not eligible for transport to the school which they attend when it is perfectly reasonable that they should be able to. Now if we move on to page 175 it says
24. 00:12:24 And I quote, the recommendations of the Task and Finish Group were presented to Cabinet on the 24th of March, 2026, with the following recommendations made, and then it lists two of them. Those were not the recommendations made to Cabinet on that day. The recommendations made to Cabinet were that wide-ranging changes should be introduced to the school transport policy. They were changes to introduce eligibility in cases of exceptional hardship.
25. 00:12:54 They were changes to ensure that faith schools entitlement is compliant with equalities law. They were changes to allow children who attend vocational training and education are able to access education on the same basis as those who go for academic qualifications. And they were recommendations to ensure that when children attend a school where there is a bus that goes past their house.
26. 00:13:22 they are able to get on that bus and not excluded from it. Those were the recommendations that were presented to Cabinet, not the two that are in the report. What is in the report is the motion that Cabinet passed, not what was recommended to it. Because at that point in March, Cabinet decided to sit on these recommendations and not take them forward in a timely manner so that the statutory consultation could be put out.
27. 00:13:52 and that changes which were supported by a long deliberative cross-party process in the working group be taken forward, that the concerns of residents through this petition be taken forward. Instead, they're sitting on it until we're past the statutory time scales so that they can kick the can down the road to September 2028 when it will be another administration's responsibility.
28. 00:14:21 That is morally bankrupt. But more to the point of this report, what is in the report is the motion that Cabinet choose to pass in what is a blatant dereliction of their duty to address the concerns raised by members of the public and members of this council. And it is not the recommendations that came from the body. And I am very, very keen because colleagues from my side of the chamber...
29. 00:14:50 and from the administration's side agonized for months over the school transport policy recommendations officers contributed hugely to that work and i pay tribute to them as well and for the blame for this to be placed at their door is wrong and i will not have the cabinet attempt to hide behind the fig leaf of the work of people who have put in every effort to advance this issue to
30. 00:15:21 Is it a point of order, Councillor Banks? So, yeah. Is this a petition? Am I on petitions or am I on different... We're discussing the petitions that were received. Item number 11. It's not a point of order. He's turning it into a Cabinet agenda item. It's a petition. He's supposed to be raising the petition. Sit down, please, Councillor Banks. Thank you.
31. 00:15:46 Madam Chair, I note it's a recurring theme for cabinet members to make bogus points of order that are not during my contributions, and I would ask that you consider introducing some sanctions against them if they continue, because it is simply not on. I will not have the cabinet tied behind the big leap of the work of members across this chamber and officers who have put forward
32. 00:16:15 very carefully considered recommendations to make the lives of children in this county better when they are abdicating responsibility. And I think that it is important that as we consider this report, that is made absolutely clear. People are watching. Chair, if I may, I think the issue is the way the sentence is phrased. The sentence says the recommendations of the Tuscan Finishing Group were presented to Cabinet on the 24th of March, which they were.
33. 00:16:45 with the phone recommendations made it well but does it i can understand my character was coming from that this implies that cabinet may receive those from the that wasn't the case what what i think it's the language used in terms of phrasing that that sort of state that that sentence which should have had probably a semicolon or two separate sentences saying that the recommendation was presented to cabinet full stop and well yeah so so
34. 00:17:14 trying to say is that it's not factually incorrect sorry sorry just remind you it's not a discussion between yourself and steve thank you it's the phrasing of the the wording in the in the sentence that is the issue not the actual fact that we've missed things out or we could have added them in i guess but at the moment it's it's the way that that sentence is phrased rather than the being factually incorrect is my view chair and we can look at how we present that that item um
35. 00:17:45 in the subsequent appendix to ensure that the recommendations are effective as well as recommendation from all the motion as you say from from cabinet so it's just the way that it's been phrased so apologies for that and if it causes confusion there councillor married eastwood um just to give clarification and assurance that all the um recommendations put forward by the task and finish group were considered by
36. 00:18:13 um cabinet as we've previously discussed within this chamber about how we need meaningful transparent consultations and that includes the financial implications of the different options that we're consulting on so i give my assurance that those costings together with inequality impact is being worked on currently as fast as resources within the department allows and that's the purpose of that is to have a full
37. 00:18:43 and effective meaningful transparent consultation thank you any more speakers before we move to the roads councillor richard lloyd thank you can i ask a general question regarding petitions received at council the general question is if a resident came to you as a councillor which was in a ward which was not in your ward to hand a petition in
38. 00:19:11 on behalf of a particular subject, would it be appropriate for you to hand a petition in from a ward that wasn't your ward? Thank you. That would probably depend on, you have the conversation with the residents to why they've approached a specific member and not their ward member. And I would suggest that the ward member protocol would sort of be triggered in that regard because you need to make the ward member aware that's happened. So I suppose it's a negotiating or discussion with the individual.
39. 00:19:45 um who's submitted that petition as to why they've approached one and not the other and then refer them back and i would suggest the appropriate way forward unless there's an overriding reason why not so what you're saying is uh mr so sorry councillor lloyd you've spoken once oh it's a clarification of that answer really so what you're saying is um any more speakers no we'll go straight to the vote then
40. 00:20:31 So the recommendation is that the council notes the report. All those in favour in the room, please raise your hand. Those online in favour, please raise your hand. That's not quite everybody online. Right. Any against online, please raise your hand. And any abstentions. Okay. So full bar two, people chair, which I think brings it to 58 in favour.
41. 00:21:13 i'm not sure it would be voting apologies if i missed anybody's hand that did vote it wouldn't make a difference at the end right so that's karen thank you turn myself off um writing agenda item number 12 these are the notice of motions and i'm going to a lot of times um for each notice of motion as there are five of them and we have scheduled um approximately
42. 00:21:53 two hours to discuss and debate these. I hope we won't take the full two hours. It's not a target for you all to think, actually, we've got time left on this one. I'll take that time. But hopefully we can move through these in a much better manner than what was done this morning and more orderly. And I'll take them in order of...
43. 00:22:21 what they're in my agenda pack. And I invite Councillor Andrew Parkhurst to bring the first notice of motion is the loss of confidence, halt the school's closure consultation. Councillor Parkhurst. Jochen Vau, Chair, and I shall try to be succinct. This motion is not about whether St Anthony's, St David's, St Mary's or St Richard Gwynne should ultimately remain open or close.
44. 00:22:51 That is a debate for another day. Today is about something much more fundamental. It is about whether this council has sufficient confidence in the current consultation process to allow it to continue. The previous consultation generated overwhelming public concern. It also resulted in legal challenges that raised sufficient issues for the council to abandon the process and start again. Yet neither the education, youth and culture overview and scrutiny
45. 00:23:22 committee nor this council has ever been given the opportunity to understand why that consultation failed or what leading advice led to the decision to restart it members are therefore being asked to support a fresh consultation without knowing what went wrong the first time or whether those issues have genuinely been addressed that is not good governance the school organization code is clear consultation should take place while proposals remain at a formative stage
46. 00:23:51 it should provide sufficient information to enable intelligent consideration and response it also expects proposals to achieve high standards in the information presented and warranted errors in detail can easily undermine confidence in a proposal that confidence has already been damaged the financial information remains incomplete we're told that the 55 million figure is indicative and that further costs may arise but what is the likely overall cost is it 55 million or is it
47. 00:24:21 perhaps more, up to 100 million, once borrowing costs are included. People are entitled to understand the financial consequences before being asked for their views. The education case also continues to raise important questions. During the previous consultation, Estyn expressed reservations, yet those concerns have not been addressed. Questions also remain about transporting very young children over greater distances, and about the implications for children living in Wales
48. 00:24:50 losing access to a Catholic education in Wales. There are also unanswered questions regarding the discussions between the diocese and the council over the future ownership and use of the land associated with these proposals. The Education Scrutiny Committee was told one thing and now something rather different is presented. Which is it? The Nolan principles require from councillors openness and accountability because public confidence depends on them.
49. 00:25:17 but many feel that those essential principles are not on view here. There is also an increasing perception that the outcome has already been decided. Residents are repeatedly told that no decision has been made, yet governors have been told that no alternative options were considered because this is a, quote, strategic decision, unquote. That perception is reinforced by the consolidation document itself. On page 32, the only alternative is presented.
50. 00:25:47 are to maintain the status quo, which is dismissed, and the council's preferred proposal. There is no assessment of other realistic options, no explanation of why they were discounted, and no options appraisal showing how a cabinet concluded that this was the best solution. Whether members agree with the proposal or not, that is a perfectly legitimate question to ask. Confidence has also been undermined further by the practical handling of the consultation.
51. 00:26:15 The school organisation code requires consultation documents to be published and made publicly accessible. Yet until earlier this week, members of the public visiting the council's consultation and engagement website, the obvious place to find them, would not have found the consultation documents because they were not there. And if you don't believe me, here is the screen print to prove it. Only after the submission was highlighted was a link added.
52. 00:26:42 Before then, the documents were buried within an obscure section of the council's website, so whilst statutory consultees might have been aware of their location, other members of the public would have struggled to find them. So this means that the requirements to have at least 42 days to respond, including 20 school days, has not been met. And at the same time, some residents have waited weeks for hard copies of the consultation documents they requested and still not receive them. This may appear to be...
53. 00:27:11 administrative issues but together they create the impression that public consultation is becoming a procedural hurdle rather than a genuine opportunity to influence the outcome members this motion does not seek to stop the consultation it seeks to restore confidence in it it simply asks cabinet to pause explain why the previous consultation had to be abandoned demonstrate what has changed allow proper scrutiny and then proceed with a consultation that is capable of commanding public confidence
54. 00:27:40 but it's not an unreasonable press it is good governance if this consultation continues without those questions being answered there is a real risk of further legal challenge further delay unnecessary cost and further damage to the council's reputation we owe our residents and especially the pupils families staff and governors affected by these proposals a process which transplants robust and commands public confidence
55. 00:28:07 For those reasons... You've gone over time there. ...to support this motion and I request a recorded vote. So we've reached the necessary ten. Councillor Hoggins-Cogan, you to second this, I believe. Yes, Chair, and I reserve my right to speak until later in the debate. Thank you. And I will speak very briefly when I do. Councillor Mara D'Eastwood.
56. 00:28:52 Good day, Irith. Thank you and Dil for raising the issue of public confidence. This is clearly a matter we all take seriously. However, I would challenge the narrative that restarting the consultation has fundamentally damaged confidence. In fact, the opposite case can reasonably be made. First, restarting the consultation demonstrates that the Council is prepared to listen, reflect and act when concerns arise about process or engagement.
57. 00:29:19 Rather than proceeding with a process that may have been perceived as flawed or incomplete, we have chosen to reset and ensure it is a robust, transparent and inclusive. This is a sign of accountability, not failure. Second, public trust is not built on rigidly sticking to a process regardless of valid concerns. It is built on responsiveness. By reopening consultation, we are explicitly giving residents and stakeholders a renewed opportunity to have their voices heard.
58. 00:29:48 particularly if they have felt previously excluded or unclear about the proposal. Third, it is important to distinguish between short-term frustration and long-term confidence. While restarting may cause delay or inconvenience, the long-term outcome of better engagement, clearer information and more defensible decision-making ultimately strengthens confidence in the Council's governance. Finally, had we not restarted the consultation in light of the issues raised, we would likely face far greater criticism.
59. 00:30:18 that we ignored feedback rushed decisions or failed in our duty to engage properly we now have the opportunity in the revised consultation to address concerns raised during the initial consultation and also comply with the new school's organization code of 2026. in the context of potential school closures delaying consultation sends entirely the wrong signal it risks suggesting that the council is avoiding scrutiny
60. 00:30:44 and certain about its own process and unwilling to re-engage openly with those most affected in my view that would do far more damage to public confidence than continue to move forward with a strengthened and transparent consultation it is in the interest for all concerned that the proposal the reasons for which have not changed is properly and fully considered thousands of people stand to benefit from this proposal should it be implemented
61. 00:31:10 and we owe it to them to ensure the proposal is fully considered prior to any decision being made. Halting or delaying the process in these circumstances would be the greater failure. We must not lose sight of the wider school planning realities that sit behind this proposal. There are significant surplus places in the system which are neither educationally nor financially sustainable. There is funding inequity, where resources are stretched across too many surplus places
62. 00:31:39 ultimately limiting what can be invested in pupils education across the entire school network impacting on the schools in all of our wards and there are aging school buildings requiring increasing levels of maintenance and capital investments that are difficult to justify where demand is failing falling sorry these are not abstract issues they directly affect the quality of education we can provide across the whole area of flintshire
63. 00:32:06 Pausing or abandoning consultation does not make these underlying issues disappear. It simply delays addressing them and prolongs uncertainty for everyone involved. And that uncertainty has real consequences. Pupils face ongoing instability about their educational future. Staff are left in prolonged anxiety about their roles. And parents and communities are unable to plan with clarity. That is not in anyone's best interest.
64. 00:32:34 The restart should not be seen as a loss of confidence, but as a necessary step to restore and strengthen it. What matters now is that we deliver a consultation process that is clear, accessible and generally responsive so that the final decision carries the confidence of both members and the public. Councillor Linda Thieu. Sorry, I didn't put my hand up for that. I put my hand up to vote for the recorded vote.
65. 00:33:14 mistake chair right uh sorry about that it's twice i've called you and you didn't want this that was my mistake chair i i saw bench with you indicating and thought she was indicating uh counselor priest uh thank you chair i actually wasn't going to speak today but i feel i must we've discussed this numerous times at the scrutiny committee for education and i feel our voice has not been heard
66. 00:33:52 The majority of the committee wanted a halt for this. They wanted it to be a reset for people to look and the feel of it was that we needed time for people to understand and see what went wrong with the other one, not to dive straight into another consultation without the process of stop, do a recess and look at the process of what's gone on and what went wrong.
67. 00:34:21 and why were people so against it or for it what were the reasons behind it and you can only do that if you assess the process that took place in the consultation that's what you need to do and i felt and the people on the committee felt the same as myself those who had been at all of the meetings not who were substituted
68. 00:34:46 at the last meeting i think we had seven substitutions including the chair of that meeting was a substitute so not the majority of the people who were voting against what the people who had been on this committee for years were looking forward to were outvoted by people who had never been on the committee who would or had been on the committee a few times so the feeling behind the people
69. 00:35:13 who have been on that education and have listened to all the points that everybody has brought forward we you know when i've spoken to other people they want a pause they want a reflection they want that time to be considered of what went wrong with it and for people to take on board those mistakes and to then take the process forward for proper in-depth consultation
70. 00:35:41 Not to rush into it and not to leave that all behind the door. Oh, that doesn't matter. Well, it does matter because this is people's futures. This is children that we've been talking about. At every single one of our meetings, we have spoken about the safeguarding. There's loads of issues with what's going on, but we need a proper consultation and it needs to be halted so that that can be looked at correctly. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Lister.
71. 00:36:16 So, yes, I am here and speaking as a Flinch County Councillor, but I'm also the mother of young children and someone who feels incredibly sorry for the families, the pupils, the staff and the governors who have been left facing continued uncertainty about the future of their schools. Whatever view you might take on the proposals themselves, the process has already caused a significant amount of stress. Families are trying to make plans for their children, as we all do, while the future of their schools remain unclear.
72. 00:36:43 um and that's a really unfair position to leave people in for such a long period of time um the previous consultation was stopped and we were told that was because of a legal challenge but since then and it is i'm speaking on a very similar vein to to council of priests since then there's been very little clear information explaining what went wrong what concerns were raised and most importantly what's being done differently this time to ensure that the process is lawful and it's fair and it's robust
73. 00:37:12 And before asking families and staff and communities to go through this process all over again, the councillor needs to show that it's learned something from the previous failed consultation. And that hasn't happened through scrutiny, which is why this notice of motion is brought today. At the moment, public confidence is low. The level of stress on families and staff is very high.
74. 00:37:37 Simply restarting the consultation without setting out first what has changed is not good enough? And are we likely to be restarting a third consultation in a few months' time following a further legal challenge? So it's for those reasons that I support this motion. Thank you. I can't see anybody else indicating to speak. I know I can come back to you, Councillor Coggins-Coggins, actually. Councillor Richard Lloyd's hand has just got up, so I'll bring him in.
75. 00:38:11 oh thank you chef thank you um the agenda item it states that this is to halt the school's consultation as uh council parker said it's nothing to do with the school's closing my residents and council short-cost residents i think they deserve to have a consultation because they we need to know what they have to say you know what would be the consequences if this consultation didn't go ahead you know what's the next steps to have where do we go from here
76. 00:38:40 so it's important that their views are heard and they should be heard now not put off again and again and again the consultation is there and they have the opportunity to put their views forward and that's i can't agree with the notice of motion there's certain things i do agree with i don't agree with it all so unfortunately i can't support it at this time thank you uh councillor mike pears online please uh right thank you uh the previous consultation resulted in
77. 00:39:13 overwhelming vote against the proposals but if instead of listening and acting upon the overwhelming vote um cabinet are now proposing to put another consultation out is that because they didn't accept the vote the overwhelming vote so here we go again and if there is another overwhelming vote against these proposals
78. 00:39:45 Are they going to listen next time or will they carry on regardless? Councillor Lloyd has just said that he wants the consultation so that residents' views can be considered. But as we've seen, the views were not considered last time. So what's going to be different this time? Thank you. Councillor Richard Jones. Yeah, thank you, Chair. This is a proper consultation.
79. 00:40:16 And nothing has been rushed, as has been outlined by some other members. It was halted due to limitations in time. And I think it's worth mentioning that by restarting and resetting this consultation in the way that's been done, we're actually showing a commitment to the people who need to be consulted, which is the general public and others. So this isn't a sign of frailty or being flawed in any way. This is a sign that we are accountable to those people who are being consulted.
80. 00:40:45 that's what we're doing here the only reason that it was there was a gap was because we there was no time to continue that consultation it was reset and it's been restarted to get the views of those people that we need to get them from it doesn't belong here it belongs to the people who are going to be consulted and that's where it should lie so i mean not i'm against this motion uh councillor gina madison uh thank you chair
81. 00:41:19 um there has been a reference to substitutions at education youth and culture committee at which i'm vice chair i myself was substituted at the last meeting because i was unwell with bronchitis and pneumonia and i thank all of those who sent you good wishes that sent me good wishes there was a reference to the chair being substituted the chair is off long-term sick i object to that reference thank you
82. 00:41:52 Councillor Paul Johnson. Thank you, Chair. It's very difficult. I believe this motion so far has been faithfully discussed. The proposal has certainly reiterated the lines of argument and debate which have been heard regularly in this chamber, in the full council, in overview and scrutiny committees, in calling meetings and in questions to cabinet members. I doubt that any member sitting down here is unfamiliar with any of the arguments which have been placed.
83. 00:42:25 Consequently, I would like to move a closure motion. Thank you. Sorry, Councillor Johnson, I didn't quite catch what you... Sorry, I would like to move a closure motion. Have you met a reservation? We have a variety of motions that are closure motions. As they're called, I think the one in this case would be, I think, is it that the question now be put? And you're looking that we move to the vote, Councillor Johnson? Yes, Chair. Thank you.
84. 00:43:04 so chair if such a motion is put uh and it is seconded and i don't know do that i haven't heard a seconder for that chair okay um then chair if you think that the item has been sufficiently discussed uh you will put the procedure motion to the vote if it is passed you will give the mover of the original motion a right of reply now in this case um
85. 00:43:32 Councillor Coggins-Cogan has also reserved his right to speak. So you would need to give Councillor Coggins-Cogan his opportunity to speak as well, Chair. So that's the situation, Chair. Do you think the matter has been sufficiently discussed? I did have one more speaker, and it was just one more speaker on the list, which I was just going to let in.
86. 00:44:07 Councillor Priest, you indicated you had a point of personal explanation. Yep, go ahead. Just to clarify, when I was talking about substitutions, it was never aimed at anybody who's on long-term sick whatsoever. It was aimed at the point that even the chair of the meeting was a substitute that they were voted in. They weren't a permanent member of that committee. So thank you, chair.
87. 00:44:37 okay thank you unfortunately the vice and the chair were both uh not well on that occasion so and so i'm just going to take um the last speaker on my list which is councillor marshall to speak on this i can see hand raise councillor ibbotson very quickly um madam chair i was indicating to speak i was also indicating to request a recorded vote on the closure motion if it is to be put to a vote
88. 00:45:38 um because i think that for the administration to be seeking to suppress debate on this for the cabinet to be doing so sorry david counselor ibbotson it's not suppressing debate i did say at the outset of these uh notice of motions we would like to get through them not to delay or dilly dally or whatever other words and prolong them all afternoon drag them out when i think everyone has
89. 00:46:08 uh you know they they're having their their opinion on them a lot of people are saying the same opinions also so i'm going to take one more speaker and then we will go to to the votes uh councillor marshall um i participated in and watched the live and recorded webcast meetings to keep up to date with what is happening on the catholic schools reorganization
90. 00:46:36 I've heard the debates relating to the cost to taxpayers of providing the new school at Flint and the potential disruption to pupils who would have to travel further to attend school. I've heard the debates about keeping the ageing schools with many vacant places and potentially high repair and maintenance costs open. The resulting cost per pupil at these schools is far higher than the average at other schools. The focus of the objectives is...
91. 00:47:02 mainly related to the high cost of the new building and not on what service or benefits it provides to the children and residents of Flincher. In my hand, I have a masonry drill bit. It cost me around £5. I didn't buy it because I wanted a drill bit. I bought it because I wanted holes. Once I made my holes, I could give it away or lend it to somebody for them to make holes. I could ask for it back if I wanted to make more holes.
92. 00:47:31 At home, I have an old camera that uses a film. I bought it because I wanted memories that I could show to others and to remind me of the good times. In my hand now, I have an iPhone 17 mobile phone. I bought it because I wanted to communicate, take photos and memories to help people what I'm up to as well as seeing what they're up to. I use it as a calculator and as a sat-nav to take me to different fine places with extreme accuracy. I'm not going to give my phone away though.
93. 00:48:00 I didn't buy any of these things just to have them. I bought them for what they allowed me to do with them. Solving problems requires looking at it from different viewpoints. Take this drink can as an example. If I hold it this way, it looks like a rectangle. If I hold it this way, it looks like a disc. If I hold it this way, it looks like a cylinder. The same item, different viewpoints. The Welsh word for church is eglous, which comes from the Greek word ekklesia.
94. 00:48:30 which refers to an assembly or gathering of people responding to god's call not to building the church is therefore the people and not to building i suggested the same goes for schools you can do nothing with an empty school building unless there are people inside it teaching coaching mentoring learning playing and socially interacting not all the children are catholic however they are they are all the children of flintcher
95. 00:48:56 so the council cannot abdicate responsibility for their education. So, what would the New Catholic School allow us to do? These are just a few points. For pupils, it allows larger friendship groups, seamless transition from primary to secondary to sixth form, provision for additional learning needs, reduce incentive for homeschooling, a technologically advanced environment to prepare them for the outside world after schooling.
96. 00:49:27 Children to be enthused and engaged in their learning. For teachers, it allows single-year classes to reduce workload and stress, a better working environment, more opportunities for development, reduce staff turnover. FCC has been an attractive place for the education workforce, making a positive impact on recruitment and retention. Staff to feel valued and enthused, improves well-being and resilience to remain in the workforce.
97. 00:49:56 For industry and professional institutions, it provides a source of educated young people to join their workforce. It will be a source of engineers, inventors, entrepreneurs from the investment zone, doctors, dentists, nurses with health infrastructure, architects and construction workers to build new homes. Maybe it could produce some county councillors. For Flintshire, removal of ageing and half-empty buildings reduces financial inefficiency.
98. 00:50:24 in the system and allows increased funding for all FCC schools and learners because the funding can be more equitably spread contributes to FCC carbon reduction strategy because the new buildings would be net zero in operation and takes old carbon heavy and inefficient buildings out of the network we have just experienced the hottest June ever recorded what if this was to be the cruelest June for the rest of our lives
99. 00:50:52 how would the children and teachers survive in 70 year old buildings much has already been said about the high cost of the school in today's money there are about 20 seconds left councilman 18 250 today's in 50 years due to inflation tomorrow's money is worth less than it is today so in 50 years time today's money will will be worth significantly less
100. 00:51:16 Let's concentrate on what New School will do for our younger generation and not on the cost of the bricks and mortar. Let's continue with the statutory consultation and hopefully get more of the 155,000 Flinshire residents to respond because it affects all of them. Thank you, Councillor Marshall. Other mobile phone brands are available as well. Okay, so we're going to vote on the...
101. 00:51:50 closure motion right there and uh i think council ibbotson indicated like a recorded vote on that so yeah i mean it is the close of the debate anyway now so uh would councillor johnson be happy to withdraw the uh proposed motion because we are going to go to the vote anyway thank you okay so it's david and then andrew
102. 00:52:30 okay so um councillor colleagues cogan uh thank you chair um there have been some interesting contributions um i think probably where um a lot of the people needed to start was uh item 10 which says publish a short report explaining why the consultation should be restarted and what steps have been taken to restore public confidence in the process the issue at stake in this notice of motion
103. 00:53:01 is not the schools closing it's not a telephone in my hand or a drink cup i can't remember where we went with that well we went on a bit um the issue is why did the consultation close in the first place why that process stopped and why we're having to rerun it that's what we want to know this doesn't have any significant bearing on the school process
104. 00:53:28 Because we just want to know this information at the beginning. The cabinet member for education gave a superb answer to the motion. Unfortunately, it was an answer that was not posed. The question was not posed in the motion. The council is listening and that's why it restarted. No, it is not. As the cabinet member knows, it was restarted because...
105. 00:53:57 parents who felt ignored and demonstrably were ignored had to issue a legal challenge that's what stopped the process up until then the council was marching along the cabinet was marching along with no regard to how people had responded to the consultation um councillor lloyd made a good point about this is the residents chance to listen it is
106. 00:54:23 But for the fact they have already spoken, perhaps Councillor Lloyd should have listened the first time when 96% of respondents, maybe Councillor Lloyd needs to listen now, 96% of respondents said no. They do not want the heart of their communities ripped out and sent to the other side of the county. Councillor Priest made a very good point about substitutions on the Education Committee.
107. 00:54:53 Earlier in today's meeting, we have discussed the value of having a consistency of membership on committees. It builds up experience, it builds up knowledge, and we have an institutional memory that we can be drawn upon. This is one of the biggest capital projects we are looking at, and yet the majority of the committee were subbed in and just made decisions seemingly along party lines. That is how it looked to the public.
108. 00:55:23 the public have no confidence um i really do i'm afraid have to take exception with the concept of net zero in operation it's only net zero in operation if you exclude all the bits that are causing carbon dioxide which is i don't know maybe numerous buses taking children back and forth crisscrossing the county twice a day it is a ridiculous idea to say this is net zero
109. 00:55:53 when it demonstrably is not. Include all those bus journeys, it is not net zero. And in closing, I would say that it's a complete fallacy to say it doesn't matter how much we spend today because tomorrow, next week, next month, next year will be worth less. It's a facetious point to make.
110. 00:56:19 if that's the case why don't we spend quarter of a billion pounds on the school because it will be worth less so it doesn't matter the problem is this money that we're spending which is going to cost the public purse 77 million pounds that's if it went ahead today if we had spades in the ground today it would cost 77 million pounds of the public purse i'm sure the children and grandchildren
111. 00:56:44 won't be happy with the comments that have been made because they're the ones that will be paying for this. In 50 years' time, they will be paying this, up until 2076 at least. This is a bonkers proposal. However, the issue at heart is why was the consultation stopped? Why are we rerunning it? That has not been answered. It has been repeatedly asked for in scrutiny committee.
112. 00:57:15 in this chamber we have not had the answer that's the core of this motion and i would ask the cabinet member to reflect and just for once to answer the question that is asked thank you uh councillor andrew parker's right to reply thank you chair thank you thank you to the councillors who have um spoken on this i want to take first of all council eastwards
113. 00:57:47 response she said they are prepared to listen but you've ignored 4 000 objections last time so where is the listening you want to be transparent yet the website engagement and consultation page did not have the consultation on it and that is a legal requirement not only under the organization code but under common law that the wider public as well as the
114. 00:58:18 specified consultees, the statutory consultees, the wider public have to have the opportunity to be able to put their views, and that was denied them until Monday. You mentioned about financial pressures. Then why were not other options considered? Why was there not an options appraisal? Again, that is a legal requirement which has not been met.
115. 00:58:43 you mentioned about aging school buildings yes some school buildings are aged some need a lot of repairs but st anthony's and st david's are not in that specific category they do not need huge of money huge amounts of money to repair them as you well know the councillor eastward there have been significant failures in this consultation process we don't know what went wrong with the last one we know that it was as a result of the legal challenge that it was suspended or stopped
116. 00:59:12 but we don't know why why the legal issues caused it to be stopped there hasn't been that debate there hasn't been that transparency we're also concerned about the the perception of predetermination that this consultation is basically a repeat of the last one with a few added facts added in it does not reflect listening it gives the impression to those watching this broadcast that's
117. 00:59:42 it has all been predetermined and you know nothing has changed no one's going to listen to people's views so i want to just want to just finish really with what's going to happen next if this motion is not passed the consultation will run its course i guess and there will be as eggs or eggs a legal challenge you can just see that coming the writing is on the wall and that's going to result in the council
118. 01:00:13 having significant costs possibly reputational damage maybe it will run out of time again who knows but all those are very severe risks and you can avoid all those risks by voting for this motion so that the whole thing can be considered properly during the summer holidays and if it needs to be restarted in the autumn then so be it but at least do it in a proper legal balanced open and transparent way that the public can have confidence in it
119. 01:00:43 thank you okay so we're going to go to the vote now and uh it's a recorded vote so i will hand over to gareth thank you chair uh so councillor glenn banks councillor banks glenn banks sorry council rawport isn't here you're first on the list today glenn sorry so are you for against or do you wish to abstain on this notice of motion against you thank you
120. 01:01:17 Councillor Bateman. Four. Thank you. Councillor Bibby. Against. Thank you. That was against. Councillor Bithell. Against. Thank you. Councillor Broccoli. Four. Thank you. Councillor Brown, Helen Brown. Four. That was four, Chair. Theresa's not with us. Councillor Claydon. Against. Thank you. Councillor Coggins-Cogan. Four. Thank you. Councillor Collett.
121. 01:01:50 That was an abstention chair. Councillor Kreese is no longer with us. Councillor Rob Davis. Abstain. That was an abstention chair. Councillor Ron Davis. Against. Thank you. Councillor Eastwood. Against. Thank you. Councillor Evans. Against. Thank you. Councillor G. Councillor G is still on line. Four. Four. Thank you. Councillor David Healy.
122. 01:02:27 against thank you councillor gladys healy that's the gladys healy you for or against okay we'll come we'll come back to gladys when you can unmute but um councillor hodge for thank you councillor david hughes thank you councillor ibbinson for thank you
123. 01:03:00 Councillor Healy, Gladys Healy. Against. Thank you very much. Councillor Johnson. Against. That was against. Councillor Christine Jones. Against. Q. Councillor Richard Jones. Against. Q. Councillor Simon Jones. Against. Councillor Hister. Four. Q. Councillor Lloyd. That was against. Chair, Councillor Mackie. Abstain. Q. Councillor Madison.
124. 01:03:32 Against. Councillor Marshall. Against. Councillor McEwen. Against. Councillor Mullin. Against. Councillor Owen. Forcher. Councillor Palmer. Against. Councillor Parkhurst. Four. Thank you. Councillor Pearce. Four. Councillor Michelle Perfect. Against. Thank you. Councillor Vicky Perfect is left, I think.
125. 01:04:08 chief uh council priest four thank you council richardson for council roberts against council the rose or uh council of rush against council sulkeld was for church councilor sylvester or uh councilor shall cross uh that was against chair councilor swash or
126. 01:04:48 That was four. Councillor Thew? Four. Councillor Turton? Four. Getting very musical online there, Chair. Councillor Wakelam? That's an abstention, Chair. And Councillor Wren? Against. Against, thank you. Councillor Popple? Abstain. Thank you. And last but not least, Chair, yourself? Against. Thank you. Bear with me, Chair. Chair.
127. 01:05:20 excuse me it's adele davis cook you didn't say my name i apologize adele i had uh i was after ron davis but um i was here i i do apologize yes no i accidentally crossed you out i've also i that means i've missed out arnold as well um so do you want my vote first yes please uh four
128. 01:05:47 OK, thank you. I do apologise. I was trying to record who was missing because we've lost five people since this morning and I'd accidentally marked you as being absent and perhaps the woolly? Four. That's four as well. OK, thank you. So bear with me, Chair. So, Chair, the votes are 21-4, 26 against and five abstentions. So notice a motion failed.
129. 01:07:09 uh next notice of motion uh loss of cents 100 of the debt zero percent of the uh ownership and this is proposed by councillor coggins cogan and the second there will be councillor andrew parkers so uh councillor coggins cogan thank you chair um i move the motion loss of cents 100 of the debt and 0 of the ownership
130. 01:07:37 The core of the motion is the question, who decided on behalf of Flinch's taxpayers to pay the full £8.3 million local contribution and when? Was that decision made by Cabinet? If so, where was the Cabinet report? Where was the decision? Where was the scrutiny? Where was the member oversight? Whilst taxpayers have been forced to foot the cost of the building, the taxpayer pays, the taxpayer borrows, the taxpayer carries the interest.
131. 01:08:07 but the taxpayer does not own the building. They are being told it is not theirs. That should trouble every member in this chamber. We have been here before, Chair. At a previous budget setting, despite objections from my group, the Liberal Democrat group, council voted through the defunding of the public toilets. When that particular bird came home to roost with the imminent closure of the toilets in mould, members in this chamber and privately
132. 01:08:37 said, I didn't know what I was voting for. This is that moment again, but on a much larger scale. No member will be able to say, I didn't know I was committing £77 million of your money and gifting it to the Diocese of Wrexham. I guarantee that the locals next year, such feigned ignorance will not be an excuse. I'm asking members, especially backbench members in the administration groups, did you know?
133. 01:09:05 Did you know that the council is proposing to pick up the full local contribution of eight and a quarter million pounds? Did you know that this would be borrowed? Did you know that the building would then leave council ownership, our ownership? And if you did not know, then surely you should support this motion. This motion is asking for information and nothing more than that. The motion does not decide the future of the schools.
134. 01:09:35 and it does not ask members to settle the whole proposal today it's simply asking for clarity before cabinet goes any further who made the decision when was it made when was cabinet told what was the diocese asked to contribute what's the legal basis for transferring the asset to the diocese and perhaps most fundamentally of all why should flinch the taxpayers carry the can when our
135. 01:10:03 infrastructure and roads are crumbling that is not unreasonable it is basic financial responsibility there's no reason not to vote for this proper this motion except for blind partisan interest this is simply asking for information nothing more the cabinet has made the decision to commit us to borrowing over a 50-year period i don't think it's unreasonable to ask who made the decision
136. 01:10:33 and when thank you chair council parkhurst thank you chair i reserve my right to speak uh councillor marid eastwood can i just say at the beginning that i'm not sure a decision has been made it's at the proposal stage and it's subject to consultation so no final decision has yet been made and folks it's important to clarify that at this point the transfer of the building to the dietis is not a discretionary giveaway
137. 01:11:09 it reflects the legal structure of voluntary aided schools which has existed nationally for decades the purpose of this investment is not to create a commercial asset for the council to retain it is to secure sustainable high quality school places for children in bleedshire i would remind you that the council has a statutory duty to provide sufficient school places ensure those places are fit for purpose and organize provision efficiently across the area
138. 01:11:37 That duty applies regardless of who owns the building. In this case, the investment delivers a modern, efficient school, reduced surplus capacity elsewhere, lower long-term maintenance pressures, a more sustainable education system, and ALM provision designed to meet the current needs of our pupils. The question is not who owns the building, but are we delivering the right school places in the right locations in a way that is sustainable for the future?
139. 01:12:06 This is not giving something away. It is investing in education provision. Whilst the diocese is the legal owner of land and buildings, the council contributes capital funding because it retains responsibility for place planning. This partnership model is standard across Wales. If Flincher were to refuse to operate within that framework, it would effectively be saying it will not support faith-based school provision at all.
140. 01:12:33 which would be a significant and controversial policy shift. This is not an exceptional or one-off arrangement, it is how the system is designed to operate. The ownership model reflects the legal framework for faith schools. Further, taxpayer value is about outcomes, not asset ownership. The suggestion that taxpayers lose out assumes that value is measured purely by whether the council holds the asset on its balance sheet. This is not the correct test.
141. 01:13:04 Taxpayer value should be assessed based on whether the investment improves educational outcomes, whether it reduces inefficiency such as surplus places, whether it avoids ongoing maintenance costs in ageing buildings, and whether it creates a financially sustainable school system. Maintaining multiple underfilled schools in deteriorating buildings does not represent good value for money. In fact, failing to act would likely mean continued inefficiency.
142. 01:13:34 higher long-term costs and reduced educational investment across the system so to reframe the reality rather than this rhetoric the council is not giving away a building it is investing in delivering education provision efficiently it is doing so within a nationally established legal framework and it is addressing real pressures of surplus places funding constraints and aging infrastructure that 70 year old building today
143. 01:14:02 be 120 years old in 50 years time if nothing is stolen to reduce this issue up to giving away something for free risks obscuring the real decision that is required for this school reorganization this is not about asset disposal it is about how we organize and sustain education provision for the future the real risk to taxpayers is not this investment it is failing to act while inefficiency surplus places
144. 01:14:31 and rising costs continue unchecked finally i would remind my members that this proposal impacts on all of our wards for those children and young people in my own ward who wish to have a faith-based education i want to be able to say to them that i value and will invest in their education as much as those who wish to attend a local authority school
145. 01:14:53 To my governing body, I want to say that I have fully considered a capital investment into the school estate that will reduce surplus places and release funds back into the overall school budget to be shared equitably across the school network. This proposal promotes equality of opportunity, equitable funding distribution across the county and diversity. Whatever your views on the proposal, it is still subject to consultation and this matter should be considered, as stated before,
146. 01:15:23 by um on its own merits and as a separate and distinct item a vote for this motion is a vote against equality a vote against equity and a vote against diversity and i call for a recorded vote oh we we have the necessary 10 clearly there are 10 or more than 10 that should be uh requested uh for the recorded vote
147. 01:15:56 so next speaker on this is uh counselor richard jones thank you chair it appears to me that this notice of motion wants members to endorse that it is not right for this council to invest in a voluntary aided school but then that includes maintenance and repairs also the ramifications of this notice of motion if passed could result in a negative effect on over 2 000 learners in voluntary aided primary and secondary schools across flintshire you can't just pick and choose when you want to apply rules to different faiths
148. 01:16:37 That would be discriminatory. So using this logic of this notice and motion could remove funding from all VA schools in Flintshire that would clearly include Church and Wales schools. So let's assess over recent years what that would mean and which Church and Wales schools would lose out. Harden Village, 641,000. Nanach, Nurquis, St Ethelwoods, St John the Baptist, Trelamwyd, Whitford and Kerwys.
149. 01:17:08 These are schools whose future hangs on a thread and changes through this notice of motion would lead to many of these schools becoming unsustainable and eventually to closure. Over the last 10 years, the Council has invested in excess of $155 million into the Flincher School estate. Importantly, investing this amount not into just community schools, it has also included significant contribution to voluntary aided schools, reflecting the Council's continued commitment
150. 01:17:37 to supporting a diverse and inclusive education system including faith-based provision where there is demand. That investment in voluntary aided estate over recent years has exceeded 7.2 million. The idea that asking voluntary aided schools to contribute to meet a 15% contribution would have very real consequences for those schools listed and likely lead them into failure. They just couldn't afford it and that's the stark reality of trying to do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.
151. 01:18:08 Investment in voluntary schools has taken place within established national frameworks where the council works in partnership with governing bodies and diocesan authorities to deliver improved facilities. While the ownership of VA school buildings typically rests with the diocese, the council's investment ensures that learners within those settings benefit from the same modern standards, safe environments and high quality provision as learners in other maintained schools.
152. 01:18:36 This partnership approach means that public investment is directed towards educational outcomes and system-wide improvements, rather than being viewed solely in terms of asset ownership. It reflects the Council's statutory responsibility to ensure sufficient, suitable school places across all sectors of provision. It's important to address the claim that public money is being inappropriately directed into assets that are then handed over to the diocese, whether that is Catholic or Church of Wales.
153. 01:19:05 it's misleading and incomplete the council's investment is not made for the purpose of acquiring or retaining property assets it is made to fulfill a statutory duty to provide sufficient high quality school places for all children across flintshire the ownership model is long established in national national legislation the diocese as trustees holds the asset on behalf of the school and its educational purpose but the school remains part of the state-funded public accountable educational system
154. 01:19:36 Crucially, public investment is directed towards educational outcomes and not asset outcome ownership. Learners attending VA schools are Flintshire residents, funded through the same public system, entitled to the same quality of educational provision. Therefore, the question is not who owns the building, but are we delivering the best and most sustainable education for our children and young people? To withdraw or restrict investment on the basis of ownership alone would mean treating learners differently depending on their school category.
155. 01:20:06 which would be inequitable and inconsistent with the school's responsibilities and fundamental ethos it is not about this is not about debt and ownership members or giving money public money away it's about being assured that every pound we invest delivers sustainable high quality education to all children's to all flinch's children's children regardless of faith the blindness is not with the blindness is not with the administration backbenchers but it's with the mover and secondary of this
156. 01:20:37 this notice of motion members i ask you to vote against the resolution to preserve the educational standards through the equitable and fair system that presently exists thank you members uh council carolyn priest thank you chair um again this is something that in education we have has been brought to the committee lots of times we have spent many hours debating this going through
157. 01:21:08 and at the beginning when the debate first started on on the discussions on this the diocese were paying the maintenance uh fund they were and then that changed when the actual bishop came to the actual meeting to say they had very little money uh no further discussion was taking place after that uh only that
158. 01:21:33 In later meetings, it was put forward that the council would be paying that remaining 15%. Now, legally, if we go through this, voluntary aided schools, the governing body or religious foundations is legally responsible for a minimum of 10% of capital and maintenance costs, such as buildings, repairs and refurbishment. The remaining 90% or less.
159. 01:22:03 is funded by the state or uk government or in wales as we are now so that's legally so somewhere along the lines this has got a bit mixed up the motion today is asking questions and it's answers to questions it's not morally about diversity or equity that we may made guilty in voting for this motion this is questions that have been asked again
160. 01:22:33 again and again and my two-year-old grandson would actually be saying again again because we haven't had an answer and he'd be going why why why well we need to know the answers this has gone on for too long now we need to know the answers and i'm supporting this motion because this is the only way we're going to get answers is to ask why
161. 01:22:59 and for the answers to be given. And that's what we're here for. We're representing the people of Flintshire to ask these questions and we need an answer. So if you do vote against this, you're putting it underneath the carpet and you don't want to know what the answers are. That's what you're voting for if you vote against this. We need to vote for this so we can actually find out the proper answers. Thank you, Chair.
162. 01:23:28 Councillor Mike Pears online, please. Yes, thank you Chair. It's quite clear that the motion is about answers, answers that previously have been forthcoming. I want to go straight to bullet point number 15. Why no contribution is apparently being required from the Diocese of Wrexham and why Cabinet believes it's appropriate to give away a publicly funded building while
163. 01:23:56 retaining 100% of the debt and 85% of the future repair costs obviously the cabinet that's the way they wish to go so I would like to hear from the cabinet member for education now what the answers are to those questions it's not just about giving a building away it's the year-on-year
164. 01:24:25 interest costs on the borrowing, plus all the costs being passed over to the taxpayer to maintain it. So it's a fantastic deal for the diocese getting something for nothing, but a poor deal for the council taxpayer. So I think rather than wait any length of time for any written answers to this motion, I think the cabinet member for education
165. 01:24:55 should now give us the answers to bullet point 15. thank you chair this isn't a debate this isn't a question set question and answer session i'm afraid chair if members make their points the cabinet member has already spoken and without your discretion uh chair is not allowed to speak again uh councillor alistair ibbotson thank you madam chair i uh came into this debate thinking i knew where i stood
166. 01:25:27 thinking i knew where pretty much everybody else in this chamber stood and was not minded to speak and drag things out but i have been moved to do so by the contribution and i use the word contribution rather than ramblings because i know he would never use that about another member at the deputy leader um he has said and he has named a number of schools including one in my ward that are and i quote hanging by a thread he's making threats against those schools
167. 01:25:57 against their viability now what does he mean by this he says that because those are voluntary aided schools they are at risk if this motion is passed which a reading of the motion of the resolves it renders clearly laughable but nonetheless he says they are under threat so how seriously are we to take this threat now i could be uncharitable here and suggest
168. 01:26:25 that when he refers to the Catholic Diocese or the Church of Wales, it suggests that he might not quite be across the detail, given that there is no such organisation as the Church of Wales. It has been disestablished for over 100 years, and it is the Church in Wales. But I should not be that uncharitable, so I won't be. Instead, I am going to refer to something else he said, which is that the buildings of voluntary aided schools are...
169. 01:26:54 typically, and I quote him directly, typically owned by the bodies themselves. Now, that is an interesting word, isn't it? Because it does not mean that they must be, by his own admission. And a cursory glance at voluntary-aided schools shows that plenty operate in premises which are not owned by the religious body.
170. 01:27:23 whose denomination they sit within. I mean, there's a number, certainly in England, which are PFI and owned by outsourcing companies. Does that mean that those voluntary aided schools are operating illegally? Well, no, it clearly doesn't, does it? So by his own tacit admission in the speech that he gave, using the model that has been suggested by my colleagues in the Liberal Democrat group, and which is fully endorsed, I would add, by my own Flincher People's Voice group,
171. 01:27:56 does not pose any threat whatsoever to the schools that he has described as hanging by a thread. So why are these schools, and I quote again, hanging by a thread under the administration that he is a deputy leader in? Either they actually are, in which case this is a serious admission, that this administration, this coalition, is going to war not only with the four
172. 01:28:27 Catholic primary schools, four Catholic schools in this motion, but with all of them, and he's looking to impose further closures. If that is what he is saying, it is a frightening admission. Or is this just political verbiage? Does he not actually mean it? Does he not actually think that these schools are hanging by a thread? And he's just saying that to try and scare members.
173. 01:28:51 If he is doing that, if he is playing politics with the future of schools across this county, with the education of children across this county to try and bludgeon members in this chamber into voting the way he wants, he is acting shamefully. So which is it? Is this administration seriously threatening those schools? In which case, why are we only finding out about it like this? Or is he just playing politics with Flincher schools? Neither is acceptable.
174. 01:29:21 I think that he ought to seriously consider his position, withdraw his remarks about hanging by a thread, and frankly, whichever the outcome is here, whether he is playing politics or whether he is seriously threatening these schools, the honourable thing for him to do in either event is to resign. Councillor Alan Marshall, please. Thank you, Chair. I was in the last education meeting and the...
175. 01:29:53 joint archive facility to be built near theater fluid was discussed um in that arrangements two million pound is coming from denbyshire around three million from flintcher and welsh government providing the remaining seven million i think um the building is in flintcher yet denbyshire is happy to pay for it they're two million pounds for a building they don't own it's not on their land they have to travel to use it
176. 01:30:22 This is not new, obviously, because this is just one example. The archive building holds historical records and the Catholic schools hold our children's future. Thank you. Councillor Linda Thieu online. I would like to ask a basic question. Has the £8.25 million
177. 01:30:53 already been borrowed I mean this that number is cast in stone and we all know about the escalating costs of building work I mean we can't envisage how much the cost of borrowing will be as in the future so
178. 01:31:13 that rings alarm bells with me it's not going to be eight and a quarter million it's going to be considerably more by the time the work starts um if if it ever does um and we all know that pupil numbers are on the decrease for the foreseeable future the office of national statistics bears that out and i feel um today we've talked a lot about faith and that this um parity of um
179. 01:31:43 Oh, have it been a faith school? But it's not about that. And the reason why people have voted in such large numbers against this is it's about the loss of community in towns. It's the school's focal point. These, Saltney and Mould, are going to lose...
180. 01:32:10 a huge part of their sense of community and it's as fundamental as that and that's why 96% of people voted against this proposal. In the last consultation I just don't understand why you think there'll be any different outcome to that and when you start looking at the figures and you know the future won't own it but we'll have to pay for the building in the future.
181. 01:32:39 it's just to me it's a it's a no-brainer i'm afraid it's just doesn't make sense uh but that's my opinion thank you um right i've got two more speakers and then i came to go to the votes which is being requested as a recorded vote so uh councillor ian roberts first and then a councillor chris before the final speaker thank you
182. 01:33:08 Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I begin my comments by saying that I am extremely concerned about the turns this debate is taking into what at worst could be described as sectarianism.
183. 01:33:32 People of all faiths and no faiths pay their council tax in Flinshire. When it comes, the council tax, it doesn't say, are you a Presbyterian or a Methodist or a Roman Catholic or Church in Wales or of no faith or Islamic? The bills are paid. And as a council, we have a duty to educate the young people of Flinshire.
184. 01:34:02 to the best of our abilities now as far as i'm aware we have rebuilt and extended uh hollywood high school connor's key high school proposals are in for saint david's uh in saltney uh castellan in hope has been substantially uh remodeled and rebuilt and uh so has the argoid and
185. 01:34:31 In all of this, yes, there may be issues playing in mould and in Saltney with regard to their primary schools. But the bigger issue here is the future of faith-based education in Flintshire. There is not an Anglican secondary school. And I personally think the Catholic Diocese of Wrexham is to be commended.
186. 01:35:03 on their vision at least they have come forward with a vision for the future of their schools that they believe is viable and i wonder whether this is a model that the anglican diocese should follow because i don't really see many proposals for the anglican diocese schools in wrexham
187. 01:35:31 i think the comment that was made by one councillor who i won't name that getting something for nothing is shocking they are providing education in saint richard green high school for six seven hundred pupils who are choosing a faith-based education and who have a right to that in this country and a sixth form as well
188. 01:36:01 and as for one of the other uh comments that was made about playing politics well of course the person who made that comment would know all about playing politics wouldn't he because he is the expert in playing politics uh in this council and telling us all to do so i just now uh you know i'm coming to the end of my term i'm not standing again
189. 01:36:30 Very, very saddened today at the dangerous pushing of the boundary that this debate is going into now, into sectarianism. And we should focus on the children and students of our schools in Flintshire, because they are all our children, our schools and our council taxpayers. Thank you, Chair.
190. 01:37:05 councillor chris biffle last speaker yes thank you the issue regarding the amount of monies paid in respect to voluntary aided schools is a very long tradition really dating back to the first education act 1870 i think mr gladstone the liberal uh prime minister of the times government that introduced that and basically they introduced state education into this country and
191. 01:37:32 they recognized from the outset that they couldn't afford even in those days to actually provide state schools in every community but before they even got going there were church schools principally uh anglican church schools and later on of course catholic schools as well and the government made a very pragmatic decision at that time it decided that it would fill in the blanks where there were no church schools they would provide
192. 01:38:02 a school in those communities and allow the children in those other communities to go to the church school those who had religious problems with that because they belonged to non-conformist faith or because they were some other faith they could opt out of the uh the religious education aspects of that particular school that's tradition that goes back to the 18th century and that's the position we're in now but we've got a good deal out of this in so far as the state's really uh only actually
193. 01:38:31 providing 85 percent of the costs involved the other costs of course are supposed to come from the diocese and that's happened traditionally and it continues today and it would change quite a change in legislation to do away with that and again what's been forgotten here so they talk about taxpayers money talk about local taxpayers money here but the 85 percent of the contribution from government and from councils comes from taxpayers money as well don't forget that
194. 01:39:00 and again it's a good deal really for them but it's also a good deal for everyone in that sense because the government and local government haven't got the money to do this on a regular basis so that's a tradition and it's gone on and it would require a change of legislation to alter that there has been questions regarding the 15 percent in relation to the schools and there has been rumors i know no more aware of anything than that regarding for example that a transfer of land
195. 01:39:30 could be involved in actually making up that particular 15 i don't know that's just a rumor i've heard and it came actually from the opponents of the scheme uh who are actually saying you know basically they're going to hand this land over to the council the council is going to build on it now i can't really comment on whether that's the case but that's certainly been rumored and uh it's come from that particular source at the time so i mean uh the cabinet members said to that there's still discussion
196. 01:39:59 in relation to these issues of the 15 percent and that's gone going but i think you know basically we need to be uh grown up about this and recognize that this has been a long tradition of the way we funded schools in the schools particularly va schools and of course as has been said there are others in the county as well both church in wales schools and the catholic schools as well in this particular sense and to be fair as i say the church the diocese of rexham have recognized
197. 01:40:28 needs to be done they're very pragmatic they're very understanding they're very reasonable of what needs to be done here and i think we need to recognize to the fact that saint richard green site which has been mentioned in this debate and where the super school will go if it goes ahead is actually on church land as well belonging to the to the uh catholic diocese of rexham and again let me just forget that too you know so the suggestions we made in the debates that we've had
198. 01:40:56 but preferably rather than having the school in Flint, we should build it in Northam. And that sounds grand. But the Catholic Church doesn't own any land in Northam, and neither do we. So that would come at a cost, and add to the cost of the total building if you had to acquire land. That land is already there. It's in the ownership of the Diocese of Exxon, and it's in Flint, and it's where Richard Gwynne stands at the moment, as indeed through St Mary's. So again, that's a part in this particular long-term proposal as well.
199. 01:41:26 thank you chair okay um so councillor andrew parker's reserved his right to speak so i'd like to call him to speak now thank you chair um i think frankly some of the comments made by the cabinet member for education are rather of a loose shall i say i should choose my words carefully um she mentioned that no final decision has been made that is technically the case
200. 01:42:00 but it's not the perception is it which members of the public see and feel and indeed many members of this council feel the same they feel that the decision has been made and what is being gone through now is a exercise in the delusional activity she also mentioned that the legal structure for the arrangement whether 85 percent comes from west government 15 percent is it comes from elsewhere has been
201. 01:42:30 the pattern for decades what she knows is that is that 15 comes from the diocese it does not come from the local council from local taxpayers so when other cabinet members keep on repeating this that it is perfectly normal it's not perfectly normal in other schools other roman catholic schools in wales the 15 comes from the diocese now the bishop
202. 01:43:02 of Wrexham has said, he's on record of saying that there were no plans to sell land. That, I presume, is the case. But equally, in the consultation documents, there is reference to some sort of arrangement over land. Well, we need to know what that arrangement is. We don't know. Please can someone say what this deal is, because it seems like a backroom deal that's being conjured up between the diocese and the council.
203. 01:43:31 and we as the council don't actually know about it and we do need to know about it um and then councillor councillor roberts said that this should be a model for the anglican diocese well i have to say i do agree with him i think i should speak to uh bishop gregory and say why don't you take advantage of this you know you get you get a multi-million pound school and you you know contribute nothing
204. 01:44:00 It's a perfect model for the church or for other faith groups. But that isn't the point, is it? We shouldn't be paying that 15% unless there is equal consideration. Maybe that is in the form of land. But we don't know, and that's what we need to know. And then Councillor Jones, Richard Jones, had this vowed threat, didn't he? And that really shows how low this debate has descended.
205. 01:44:31 veiled threats are being made against councillors who are standing up for the local communities and the schools and the children so has you let the cat out of a bag and that is really what all this is all about and if it is then we need again we need to know about it so so chair this is a very serious very serious matter we are we are asking questions and
206. 01:45:04 It just seems that we ought to support this motion in order to get those answers. Thank you. And the right of reply goes to Councillor David Coggins-Cogan. Thank you very much, Chair. I will be as brief as I can. First, I'd like to thank the members who have supported the motion, particularly Councillor Priest, who couldn't have put it better myself. We haven't had an answer.
207. 01:45:33 That's the entire basis of this motion. We just want to know who made the decision and when. It's incredible that despite repeated requests at the Education Committee, repeated questions at full council, now this notice of motion, we are still not given the answer. I have to commend the Cabinet Member for Education and the Deputy Leader of the Council.
208. 01:46:00 for their superb reframing of the notice of motion talking about discrimination and uh discretionary given ways and not being controversial ignoring a consultation when 96 of people oppose something is apparently not controversial i i it's just astonishing um it was also mentioned by the cabinet member that this will improve educational outcomes by whose reckoning because estin
209. 01:46:30 directly said there is no evidence to suggest that this will improve educational outcomes so why does the cabinet member for education who as i understand does not have a background in education know better than estin this entire motion is about just wanting to know who made the decision and when the decision was made that's the issue i must
210. 01:46:57 offer my particular thanks to the deputy leader of the council and cabinet member for growth for saying the quiet part out loud outside of this chamber i have been told that if this proposal doesn't go ahead eyes will be looking on the schools in my ward isn't that and i haven't been able to repeat that because i thought well that was said outside the chamber that's not a public comment thank goodness
211. 01:47:25 the deputy leader of the council has said it for me on the record in this debate if we keep asking questions about these schools if we oppose them and any councillor on that side the schools and their walls will be looked at hanging on by a thread i mean whilst i don't normally enjoy interruptions i have to admire councillor ibbotson for crystallizing the point there is a lack of shame
212. 01:47:59 in this chamber. And I think my final point will be, Chair, over my career, my previous career and my sort of career in this chamber, I have never been accused as having a lack of confidence. Even I do not have the confidence that the former of the leader of this council has to accuse a Scottish Catholic of messing around with sectarianism. It is disgraceful.
213. 01:48:32 and it is shameful to suggest i would do that shameful i was born a catholic i was raised a catholic to suggest that i am playing politics with my own community is reprehensible thank you chair that takes us to the vote i'll hand you over to gareth thank you chair it is a recorded vote so we will go from the top
214. 01:49:02 Councillor Rawlport isn't here, so I'll start with Councillor Glyn Banks. That was against, Chair. Councillor Bateman. That was four, Chair. Councillor Bibby. Against. Thank you. Councillor Bithell. Thank you. It was against, Chair. Councillor Broccoli. Four. Thank you. Councillor Brown. Four. That was four, Chair. Councillor Claydon. Against.
215. 01:49:36 Councillor Coggins-Cogan. Four. Councillor Pollitt. That was an abstention chair. Councillor Rob Davis. Against. Thank you. Councillor Ron Davis. Against. Thank you. Councillor Davis-Cook. Four. Thank you. I do apologise again for earlier. Councillor Eastwood. Against.
216. 01:50:11 Councillor Evans. Against. Councillor Chrissy G. For. Thank you. Councillor David Healey. Against. Thank you. Councillor Gladys Healey. Against. Thank you. Councillor Hodge. For. Thank you. Councillor David Hughes. Thank you. Councillor Ibbotson. For. Thank you. Councillor Johnson. Thank you. Councillor Christine Jones.
217. 01:50:47 Against. Councillor Richard Jones. Against. Councillor Simon Jones. Against. Councillor Lister. Four. Councillor Lloyd. Against. That was against. Councillor Mackie. Four. Thank you. Councillor Madison. Against. Councillor Mansell isn't with us. Councillor Marshall. Against. Thank you. Councillor McEwan. Against. Councillor Mullin.
218. 01:51:19 Against. Councillor Owen. Thank you. That was four. Councillor Palmer. Against. Councillor Parkhurst. Four. Councillor Pearce. Four. Councillor Michelle Perfect. Against. Thank you. Councillor Priest. Four. Councillor Richardson. Four. Thank you. Councillor Roberts. Councillor Roberts.
219. 01:52:02 Sorry, against. Thank you. Councillor Rose. Four. Thank you. Councillor Rush. Is Councillor Rush still with us online? No, I think he's left. Yep. Councillor Solkel. Four. That was four, Chair. Councillor Sylvester's had to go to work. Councillor Shellcross. Yes. Thank you. Councillor Swash. Four.
220. 01:52:38 Thank you. Councillor Thew? Four. Thank you. Councillor Turton? Four. Thank you. Councillor Wakelam? Four. Councillor Woolley? Four. Thank you. Councillor Wren? Against. Councillor Pottle? Four. And yourself, Chair? Against. So that was 23-4, 26 against, and extension, Chair? Yeah.
221. 01:53:23 so that notice of motion is not carried and i'm aware that we're coming up to two hours since we reconvened the afternoon session however i'm going to take the next notice of motion before taking a quick break quick respite break and so regulation of high occupancy visitor accommodation in wales and this will be proposed by councillor fran lister and seconded by
222. 01:53:56 Councillor Simon Jones. Thank you for allowing me to bring this notice of motion to full council, my very first one. This motion is about high occupancy visitor accommodation. It's not about ordinary holiday lets and it's not an attack on tourism. There are many holiday lets in my ward and they act responsibly and contribute positively to the economy. This motion does not affect the vast majority of holiday accommodation in Flintshire.
223. 01:54:27 There are, however, under the same planning and tourism legislation, some properties which are being marketed for high occupancy groups, corporate events and celebrations. They are large, very high value properties, which are not operating like traditional holiday lets. They include entertainment rooms, casinos, bars, outdoor spaces, sound lighting systems and facilities designed for large groups.
224. 01:54:55 um they are like private clubs uh but ones which you can have rooms to stay in um the impact of such properties on nearby residents is incredibly distressing uh residents are being subjected to noise and disturbance weekend and weekend should i just wait um can we give the you know good manners to listen to what councillor franlis is bringing us this is an important uh motion for her residents thank you continue
225. 01:55:25 thank you yeah the these types of properties are causing a huge amount of disturbance weekend after weekend um and into the early hours of the morning and i'm not exaggerating when i say um some of my residents or residents in my ward are at breaking point with this um flinch offices are responding
226. 01:55:44 using the legislation that they currently have available. And my thanks really do go to the officers in the community and business protection team for the work they are doing to support Flincher residents. It is really very much appreciated. In discussion with those officers, it's become clear that the current legislative framework limits what councils can do to address the noise and antisocial behaviour that goes hand in hand with these type of properties.
227. 01:56:12 and when businesses who often live out of the area can respond by saying that they've taken reasonable steps to minimize noise and disturbance when the reality is that the same reasonable steps need to be taken weekend after weekend after weekend as new guests arrive to enjoy their party weekend. The living conditions of those living in close vicinity to those properties, it just never improves.
228. 01:56:39 So the legislation is not strong enough to make a difference to the communities surrounding these properties. This is already an issue for us in Flintshire, and I know of at least one other local authority in North Wales that are experiencing similar challenges in responding to the problems caused by this kind of property, which is why this motion calls on Welsh Government to introduce stronger licensing powers for high occupancy visitor accommodation.
229. 01:57:06 Councils need the ability to set conditions in advance, including noise management, controls on outdoor entertainment spaces, and meaningful sanctions when disturbance is repeated. This is a live and very emotive issue in my ward at the moment, but unless the legislative gap is closed, it could be any one of your wards tomorrow. So I bring this notice of motion to full council to draw on the knowledge and experience of all members, and I hope that you will support this motion.
230. 01:57:36 councillor simon jones thank you chair i'm pleased to second this notice of motion i have been contacted by people who live next door to such a property who have given me their permission to use their names alex and guy are just one of many families who are who are living through what can only be described as a nightmare every weekend from dusk until dawn they are subjected to nightclub level noise from a neighboring property just four meters away from their home
231. 01:58:07 This property has in the past been actively advertised and marketed online as a party house, specifically to attract groups looking to celebrate and party late into the night. The result is devastating for those who live nearby. The simple enjoyment of family life in their own home has become impossible. They feel trapped, unable to enjoy their property and believing they would struggle to sell it because of any prospective buyer.
232. 01:58:35 would quickly discover the ongoing disturbance next door. It's not simply an inconvenience, it raises fundamental questions about people's rights. Article 8 of the Human Rights Act protects the right to respect for private and family life and the right for a person's home. These rights should include the ability to live peacefully and safely in your own home without enduring persistent and excessive disturbance.
233. 01:59:02 Yet there remains a significant gap in the powers available to local authorities, where properties are deliberately operated in a way that causes ongoing harm to surrounding communities. Councils have limited ability to intervene through planning or licensing legislation alone. That is why I am proud to second this notice of motion. It is about giving councils the tools they need to protect residents and restore balance between visitors and permanent communities.
234. 01:59:31 and ensure that no other family has to endure it has to endure the misery that alex and guy and many others are experiencing today i urge members to support this motion yes councillor carolyn priest thank you chair as in one of my past lives of doing different things of being northeast wales tourism ambassador um i've sat on many pan wales meetings regarding
235. 02:00:06 this topic has actually come up it's not about stopping tourism at all the doors are open and as it says we are the gateway to wales we are it's about limiting unsocial behavior that is that is what we're talking about anti-social behavior that affects residents near to the dwellings that this is taking place at and
236. 02:00:34 That is exactly what they're doing in other countries. You see it in Spain, all over the place. They've done protests in the streets. They do not want undrunken people, et cetera, on the streets. And we don't want them in those houses, which are then going to be a knock-on effect for families. I fully support this. And I would say we need to make sure that it gets to the right departments there, that...
237. 02:01:03 this is a new type of license that comes out we're not saying no we're saying yes to tourism but we're saying no to unruly disturbances and parties thank you chef councillor paul johnson thank you chair i think it's very rare to have an emotion like this which is virtually accepted and will be voted on by every civil member in this chamber uh it's been proposed by members from two different groups and it's got how to support the labour group
238. 02:01:34 uh council of priests was saying it certainly has the support of the fpv lib dems uh i think as a that we should just move to the vote and show you our unanimous support what i consider to be a very very sound motion and let's not forget as council list was saying there are other councils in this situation who are uh dealing with the difficulties that these situations go and create and i think we should acknowledge that as council priest was saying we're not against tourism let's let's
239. 02:02:01 work with other councils in north wales to present a solid front against this sort of thing happening thank you chair and can i move to can i move a closed motion and we go to the vote please uh councillor johnson i just want to say that i've got one more speaker on the list and then we will be going through the vote so in that case i hope i hope you're as brief as i was councillor glynn banks thanks thank you chair i'll find my best councillor johnson um yeah
240. 02:02:31 uh just want to say um i totally concur with uh councillors lister and jones because every single word they said could have been spoken by councillors madison and councillors banks because we've also got one of these in our ward and it's a absolute nightmare for the local neighbors and as already we mentioned it's nothing to do with trying to stop tourism in fact we want to increase tourism but we want the right kind of tourists to come here not not party houses which are
241. 02:02:59 causing nightmare for people so fully supportive thank you very much chair and then very last speaker is councillor dell davis cook who sorry i didn't see your hand going up so you are the very last speaker on this one um thank you chair uh you'll have to bear with me i'm in quite a bit of pain because i have hurt my back um i have a holiday barn and when i'm in planning you know on the planning committee uh this has been one thing that i've
242. 02:03:28 always gone on about which probably some of the planning members will know um the thing is is that planning is the most important thing and it's where we are allowing these holiday cottages or barns and you know places for tourism to to be built you know i i live sort of more or less you know well we're on our own here which we don't disturb anybody
243. 02:03:57 and you know it should be taken into consideration so you know i will be supporting this but it is to do with planning and it is to do with the government legislation and i hope that they will stress the point you know you cannot have these holiday tourist places right next door to people who have never ever had anything like it in their lives it's bad enough at times you know but we're the
244. 02:04:25 owners you know of a property and we've taken it you know on the chin when people have been in hot tubs and screaming and dancing and doing whatever they want to do to enjoy their weekend or week um so you know please uh get the legislation right okay thank you thank you councillor davis cook are you therefore uh declaring a personal interest there just to clarify
245. 02:04:56 Could you clarify with me, Gareth, whether or not it is okay or not? I prompted the chair, so yes, I would say it might be wise, Councillor Davies Cook. It's fine, we have the item at the start of the meeting, but you can declare them during the course of the meeting as well. Right. Well, I haven't sort of realised because I've been up and down. Okay, thank you. So the right of reply, if they so wish, goes to Councillor Fran Lister.
246. 02:05:28 I've written down nothing because it seems that I have unanimous support. So thank you all very much for your support. Yes, that's it. Thank you. We'll move straight to the vote then. All those in favour of this notice of motion, please raise your hand in the chamber and online.
247. 02:05:58 right i was going to say i make that 49 in favor chair i make that 50 in favor chair so yes um it's unanimous unanimous so that's uh that's carried um and i'll propose a short break and we can reconvene at five to four thank you