Joint EYC and SHC Overview & Scrutiny Committee 02.07.26

AI-generated transcript — it may contain errors; the recording is the authoritative record.

1. 00:00:03 Okay, that looks like we're already live streaming. Thank you, Sharon. Good afternoon and a warm welcome to the joint meeting of education, youth and culture and social and healthcare overview and scrutiny committee. The first item on the agenda today is the appointment of chair. So do we have a nomination, please? Thank you. Councillor Gina Madison.
2. 00:00:34 thank you good afternoon everybody um in view of the fact that councillor carberry is sending apologies and i have to leave at five i want to nominate councillor sam swash so thank you thank you do we have a seconder i'll second that please thank you can we have a show of hands sorry cancer ryan mckeon is indicating do you want to come in uh no sorry margaret i was seconded for some
3. 00:01:06 fine that looks um unanimous then thank you so i'd like to hand over to councillor sam swash to take the chair thank you sam thank you margaret and thank you members uh welcome renowned are to this joint meeting of the education youth and culture and social and healthcare overview and scrutiny committee um just
4. 00:01:26 because this is an online only meeting just as sort of housekeeping if if members can if possible if they want to speak could use the raise hand function on zoom just because that makes it easier for us to spot you um rather than using your actual hand if possible um first item on the second item on the agenda is apologies for absence thank you chair so the apologies we've received
5. 00:01:50 are from wendy white and councillor steve koppel and we've had one substitution councillor sean baby for councillor theresa carberry and we've also had an apology from an officer jenny williams thank you chair thank you margaret councillor baby yeah thanks very much mr chairman i will need to leave the meeting at approximately four o'clock to attend another engagement
6. 00:02:19 Thank you. We'll move on to agenda item three, which is declarations of interest, including whipping declarations. Would any members like to make a declaration? Councillor Buckley? Yeah, I'd just like to make a declaration on agenda item number five. My sister works at Usko Penhoch. Thank you, Councillor Buckley. I can't see any of the members indicating, so this is Councillor Jones.
7. 00:02:48 yeah i couldn't get the hand up quick enough then um yeah i know i'm not on the committee as such i'm here as cabinet member but um item number five um because of my grandson has additional learning needs i always declare an interest on this subject i do a cabinet as well so just so it's consistent thanks cancer james cancer eastwood yes um just i said um
8. 00:03:19 personal prejudicial in item number five because it has gone through cabinet already i think is that the only one that's gone through cabinet already yeah thank you councillor eastwood any other members i can't see anybody raising their hand so this is your final chance um no so we'll move on uh we'll move on to agenda item four um which is the gwynedd child practice review flincher action plan and i'll pass over to jane davis who i think is going to introduce this report
9. 00:03:55 Thank you very much Chair, good to see you all. I did go to the auditorium, I'm going to say that out loud and realise we weren't there so I'm going to return swiftly to my abode. So thank you for letting me bring this report this afternoon
10. 00:04:20 chip in as well because this as you'll see from the report very much straddles both of the portfolio areas. I know that you will be well versed and very familiar with the report but also with the activity that has taken place in Gwynedd County Council regarding the head teacher Neil Foden and this report is the
11. 00:04:47 child practice review following on from the criminal process that took place and as you know from reports that we've brought here in the past but also to our social and health scrutiny that a child practice review is there to examine the serious nature of safeguarding but also to assist us as
12. 00:05:14 partners, local authorities, professionals to be able to learn lessons from such cases, and to be able to take that learning forward in our daily practice. And that is an incredibly valuable tool to us as practitioners. But it's also a huge opportunity for us as well to be able to understand better from those who were
13. 00:05:40 involved and from the professionals who have undertaken the review what could be done differently and could be done better in the future and so each of the North Wales partner agencies including the health board have been clearly cited on the outcomes of the child practice review for Gwyneb and also have the opportunity to review the action plan.
14. 00:06:04 and to be able to interpret the action plan for their own partner agencies. So ourselves in Flincher, and you will see the action plan with an appendix to the report. Ourselves in Flincher have worked jointly, so education and ourselves within social services to review the...
15. 00:06:24 list of recommendations of which there are many and rightly so and to assess and evaluate our position in Flintshire and what additional work and resources and processes we need to adopt to ensure that we also take those lessons. So as you will know from the report and your previous knowledge of this case, this is very much
16. 00:06:53 conversation regarding the section 5 processes within the Wales safeguarding procedures and so these are positions of trust so individuals who will work with our most vulnerable in society whether that be a child or an adult and the work that we do to ensure that our professional curiosity and our processes support
17. 00:07:16 what can be the unthinkable and i think when we've presented many times regarding safeguarding in the past thinking being unthinkable is a very important part of the roles that we all play as part of our safeguarding responsibilities the review itself identified a number of failings over an extended period of time missed opportunities to safeguard individual children within Gwynedd
18. 00:07:45 insufficient professional curiosity and ineffective inter-agency communication gaps in process if you like and not meaningfully engaging in the voice of the child. These are the core principles that we adopt within the Social Services and Wellbeing Act and the review has clearly identified that in this particular case that those have not been adhered to.
19. 00:08:12 Clearly, these are things that we also need to give due regard to within Flincher, but within every other local authority across the UK. And as I say, we're fortunate that the North Wales Safeguarding Board has taken the lead to ensure that all of the partner agencies across North Wales are actively engaged in this piece of work. And the fact that Gwynedd is in our patch, so to speak,
20. 00:08:40 also gives us the opportunity to be able to better understand, to interpret and to learn from the actions that we see before us today. So the review does demonstrate that abuse can persist and when professional curiosity is eroded then our systems need to be strong to ensure that we persist with that curious mind and also the review as you will see
21. 00:09:09 um makes reference to the section five processes as well and the referral process within section five um the review also um covers a lot of the processes within all of our agencies where allegations are made and how are those allegations taken forward um going back to my point earlier of um
22. 00:09:37 seeking the unthinkable of those who we work with and who are surrounding our most vulnerable. So the actions have been identified. And as I say, ourselves in education and social services have worked together. We have submitted our actions to the Northwell Safeguarding Board alongside other members of the board. And they have been brought together.
23. 00:10:04 into one action plan for North Wales and that is a helpful exercise because each local authority has done their own work and then we get to learn from each other as well as to other areas of work that other local authorities and neighbouring authorities may have decided would actually be something that would be beneficial for them so it's a great opportunity not only to learn from the
24. 00:10:26 actions and recommendations from the child practice review but also the reflections that other local authorities have made based on that information and so we get learning in a different way which is very valuable to us as an organization.
25. 00:10:42 There are some key things that affect the authority wider than social services and education and youth portfolio. And those relate to the corporate safeguarding policy and the work of our corporate safeguarding board. This report and the CPR previously has already been presented to the corporate safeguarding board. And it's important that every...
26. 00:11:07 portfolio within the authority is aware of and minded to the actions contained within it. Also from a perspective of policy making, so as you know we have a whistleblowing policy within the authority and our colleagues within human resources will be reviewing the corporate whistleblowing policy as part of this work to ensure that again those lessons are picked up across the services.
27. 00:11:37 Safeguarding training as well. Very much mandatory as we know across services with a clear and structured safeguarding training approach for all of Wales with different groups of training available and reference being made. I attended recently the Group C training which is for managers. You progress through the training over a period of time. Much reference was made to this CPR.
28. 00:12:04 and to the reporter, Bravery Board Justice, and the lessons that it brings. And that is right that that should happen. So it's very live and current within the training arena at the moment. I'll stop for questions, Chair, if that's okay. But happy to take any. And of course, you'll have seen the action plan in the appendix, which is the important document probably. Björk, thank you, Jane. I'll open up now to members for any questions.
29. 00:12:40 councillor madison hey thank you very much chair um well thank you for this which does make sad reading uh i mean we do all of us remember the terrible case of neil foden in gwyneth so my question is on page 13 um of the attachment which is to do
30. 00:13:06 With a renaming, it talks about setting up an adult conduct of concern policy in Wales. But this is known in England as a low level policy, a low level concerns policy. So is there a reason for the change of name, Jane? Is there a reason behind that?
31. 00:13:29 And my second question is on page 18, which is to do with the reduction of restrictive practices. Could we have a little bit of information on that as well, please? Thank you very much. Thank you very much for the question. So with regards to the renaming, the renaming is to better explain
32. 00:13:58 the concerns process so adult conduct of concern gives gravitas.
33. 00:14:05 to the importance of the concerns raised but also helps us to better understand where that fits within the process and as you'll know from sitting on the social and healthcare committee the legislation in England and Wales for social services particularly is very different and so we have had an opportunity to make it relevant to Welsh all.
34. 00:14:30 Wales safeguarding procedures which is an important part of how this dovetails together. It is part of your question but I did just want to pick up on that as well just to say that there is currently a review of the section 5 part of the Wales safeguarding procedures. The review was already considered and underway clearly this child practice review and the report that came from it.
35. 00:14:59 very much feeds into that and it's really important that that Section 5 element of the Wales Safeguarding Procedures is amended and reflects the severity of this particular case but also the important learnings that have come from it. So it just reminded me when you were speaking that I wanted to pick up on that. The reducing of
36. 00:15:34 The review identified the excessive use of restrictive practices has become embedded in the culture of schools and the review recommends an addendum to the guidance on reducing restrictive practices.
37. 00:15:54 I don't know anything about that. I'm just interested to thank you. Thank you. I might come to my education colleagues, if that's okay. So I know Claire has been the co-author of the action plan, but I know Claire isn't in attendance, but I don't know if I am struggling. Thank you, Claire.
38. 00:16:20 okay and i've got Jeanette with me as well and Jeanette may want to chip in here so um obviously yes that was a finding of this particular review of the of the behaviors you know within that school um which obviously is is unacceptable um what we have been doing here within the education portfolio is reviewing our our policy because actually our aim is
39. 00:16:44 to reduce the number of occasions where actually there may need to be any kind of physical intervention so our priority has been to focus on upskilling staff to de-escalate situations and i'm going to ask Jeanette if she would just copy because she's been doing a lot of the work you know on revising our policy
40. 00:17:03 on that and then also just to say that there will be a clear statement in our policy around the fact that you know members of staff should not be filming any incidents of pupil behaviour or restraint that's very clearly stated in the policy Jeanette would you like to talk about the work we've been doing with schools and the team teach training yes thank you thank you Claire so yes we have revised and updated our
41. 00:17:29 policies in relation to physical intervention and restraint, as you would expect, and those have been out for consultation with schools and we're looking to publish those in September. But as part of that work, as Claire has alluded to there, we've focused with our schools on the de-escalation strategies and that important first step.
42. 00:17:51 of reducing a situation that then doesn't require that physical intervention with a learner and that
43. 00:18:00 training is being delivered through the TeamTeach model which is the model that we prescribe to as a local authority and is being delivered through staff at Usgal Plastero and Peru and the main focus of that is around that de-escalation focus. We're also working with our schools on a reporting system that will enable us to capture all the information about any physical intervention that has happened across schools and that we can then keep an eye on monitor that and identify
44. 00:18:30 whether there's any further training needs or need for us to intervention to intervene with any setting with regards to to practice in relation to this thank you thank you chair that explains a lot it just it sounds quite frightening does it restricted practice thank you thanks council madison councillor priest thank you chair
45. 00:18:59 Mine are all concerning the identifying of the safeguarding failures, which obviously have occurred and has been reported on correctly. What I'm looking at now for my question is, how will the council assess whether staff feel comfortable about raising concerns about colleagues and mainly about senior staff?
46. 00:19:28 Carrying on from that, will anonymous staff surveys be undertaken? And are we looking at updating the corporate whistleblowing policy, maybe doing a review on it? Or has that been done in conjunction with this report? Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Preece. I might, again, because as I've mentioned, it's a joint piece of work come.
47. 00:19:59 to our education colleagues regarding the raising of concerns about colleagues across services. The raising of concerns about colleagues is indeed an important practice. We do see that within the council as a whole and our partner agencies through the Section 5 processes that we already have in place and we have training embedded.
48. 00:20:23 to encourage not to encourage to ensure staff feel supported when they are raising those concerns as you say councillor priest it's absolutely important that that professional curiosity remains and thinking the unthinkable of the person who may be above you in the structure or next to you in the structure or layers above you in the structure our duty as all of us as officers and members is to ensure
49. 00:20:51 the safety of those who are most vulnerable in our society be that adults or children and and that is reiterated throughout all of the training that we deliver all of the advanced training that is delivered specifically to practitioners within our portfolios and i'll just pick up on your whistleblowing question as well if that's okay and so with regards to whistleblowing it is a corporate policy
50. 00:21:17 and not a specific education or social services policy and it's important from this perspective and the authority generally that the corporate whistleblowing policy is amended and our colleagues within human resources are on the case as they say in the trade so it hasn't been done yet but they are a work in progress i think is the terminology but i'll just come to education colleagues just regarding your point about raising concerns about colleagues from that perspective as well
51. 00:21:47 yes council swash if i can step in there so yes i mean similarly obviously our schools um should have their own whistleblowing policy but obviously there is the um
52. 00:21:57 corporate safeguarding policy as well and that should clearly outline to staff how they would raise concerns particularly if it is against somebody you know more senior than them and who they should be referring those concerns to and again you know when we look at our corporate policy again we look at our model policies that we develop for schools so we will make sure that there there is alignment there and again similarly you know we deliver a lot of training to our schools and that again is the core message that it is everybody's responsibility to
53. 00:22:26 you know if they have concerns to refer them appropriately and any member of staff actually can make a direct referral to children's services as well if they feel that they they have concerns so i would want to assure you that those those messages are given loud and clear you know through our training to all staff and that there are policy documents in place that should reinforce the processes that they would need to undertake thank you claire does that cover everything councillor priest
54. 00:22:57 Yeah, it does, Chad, but it also leads on to the other bit that was quite concerning because governance was quite weakly featured throughout. So it did say additional safeguarding training is being provided for governors, but is this being made mandatory update for them all? I know individual schools have their own training, but as a hierarchy overarching.
55. 00:23:26 is this going to be made mandatory for an update for all governors to actually go through an updated safeguarding training thank you um councillor priest i i would lean on claire senate here in terms of our um
56. 00:23:45 trainer and sort of corporate lead education lead for safeguarding in terms of just reminding us where we are in terms of the governance room that we do offer safeguarding training for governors and as you say governors with specific roles in relation to safeguarding in their schools are required uh to undertake you know um higher levels of training through the national training models but if you just bear with me i'll get you a firm response to that in terms of just checking in with claire if that's okay i've got councillor claydon next
57. 00:24:19 Thank you, Chair. I'm just wondering how extensive the training is. I'm thinking of people that are about in schools and social services venues, perhaps when the children are not traditionally there, but see lots of things like the cleaner, like the caretaker. And I'm wondering whether it extends from the top of the establishment down to them because they...
58. 00:24:47 it's possible for them to see quite a lot that other people don't again sure if i can help yes every member of staff within a school setting is required to undertake safeguarding training and that is um you know there is a layered approach as you know through the different sort of group levels within the training so you can have the assurance that every single member of staff within a school community will have undertaken safeguarding and then that is more detailed as well then particularly dependent on their role
59. 00:25:17 But yes, it would include support staff, cleaning staff, caretaking staff, everybody. Thank you. That's reassuring. Councillor Lister. I'm going to just declare a personal interest that I didn't do at the start because I have a close friend who worked in the Gwyneth School where this report was based on. And as I studied over that way, I also knew children who are pupils of that school.
60. 00:25:48 um but what i wanted is a bit niche this um but the under the sort of heading of thinking the unthinkable the local authority has lots of staff that go into schools and delivers like one-to-one sessions for example counseling and that kind of thing um music staff go in and teach uh schools and my concern is that quite often when
61. 00:26:10 we go in as extra people into schools, that we're shoved in like a corner somewhere to teach people and it's quite isolating and that there should be windows on doors or doors should be propped open. And I just wanted to kind of ask really, I know it's the school's responsibility to make sure that the space is appropriate for that sort of session to take place.
62. 00:26:30 but can the local authority sort of reaffirm to any visiting staff that goes out that that you know that to make sure that that is happening um and and to say that you know if you're not teaching in a place where you feel safe or whether whether you know well where anything could you know where you're hidden um that that needs to be raised um with a manager or with the school themselves um and the other thing i i probably should note this but we're obviously we're all um in contact with
63. 00:26:59 our residents and if anybody came to us with a safeguarding concern about something that was happening in one of our schools who is our local authority designated officer who do we go to if we receive a whistleblowing complaint is it you jane thank you thank you if i pick that second point up and then maybe come to education colleagues again just for the point regarding the premises and and um
64. 00:27:26 the correct environment that you made reference to. So all safeguarding referrals should be made on the standard safeguarding referral form and the details of the pathway through to services is detailed on the form. So children's first contact teams.
65. 00:27:47 for children's services and SPOA or social work duty teams for adult services only because one person is a single point of failure and so you know if I was on leave or sick or whatever it might be then that is not an acceptable process and so if there are any safeguarding concerns they should be raised on the safeguarding referral form because it gives a little bit more
66. 00:28:14 detail and a bit more information to help to expedite that referral but also is done in the first person so you as the person who has the concern or a person who comes to you if they can be encouraged to complete the referral that makes for a swifter and more accurate process and a more accurate response as well so we can take action immediately and those referrals for particularly for section five so
67. 00:28:43 uh people in the position of trust which this particularly relates to and they will be triaged immediately in children's services so they take high priority within the service um and actually taken um depending on severity immediately or within a very short period of time and at that point um an investigation will be triggered if it is necessary so it's all about you know what is
68. 00:29:10 what is necessary and what is known. And from that information, the process will take place from there. Similarly in adult services should the case arise. Just picking up on your point regarding music staff.
69. 00:29:26 and staff visiting. And I know Claire will probably come in on this as well, but for reassurance, the corporate safeguarding panel that we made reference to previously, Theatre Cluid attend the corporate safeguarding panel and they obviously host the venture music service as part of their provision. And so Cath Sewell was at the last meeting and is very...
70. 00:29:50 aware and informed and also we have a standing agenda item to discuss this but also to discuss training provision and an opportunity to raise questions and concerns and as part of that and then the music service are also engaged in that conversation i know visitors are wider than music but just wanted to give you that assurance but um i might come to claire if that's all right regarding um external visitors yeah
71. 00:30:20 thank you jate yeah council list you're absolutely right it is for the school to manage uh you know their visitors they should be making their visitors aware of their safeguarding arrangements who their designated safeguarding person is you know schools have posters up lots of people have it now on the back of their
72. 00:30:36 on their sort of staff badges as well so that they've got that information to hand so when visitors are signing in as well they are often now on these electronic systems asked to read and check you know the school's procedures you know for for safeguarding and abide by them so yeah i do understand your concerns you jane you're quite right you know you've mentioned the close work we do with the theatre fluid music trust for example um and yes cath's engagement in the in the in our corporate safeguarding board you know it was obviously make sure that those messages um are
73. 00:31:05 shared you know within the within the music service but you know i take your point councillor lister um and i certainly have no objection in terms of reminding our
74. 00:31:15 our staff because we do have a number of teams that obviously that do go in and out of schools through our own services here within the portfolio and again you know reiterating that those core messages that if there's ever any time when they feel uncomfortable about a situation that they find themselves in school you know they should raise that at the school level but then you know they should also then perhaps report report that to their manager as well so that that can be escalated through the appropriate procedures does that give you some reassurance yes thank you and
75. 00:31:45 I'm really pleased to hear what you're saying about the music service. I think you're ahead of other perhaps local authorities with that messaging going out. Can I just also ask, as I've got the mic, it just occurred to me then about the governance of schools and the governors having a very important role with this. And I know the governor, I'm a governor of a school and I know at our previous meeting, we actually discussed this report and it was a really interesting and informed conversation.
76. 00:32:13 obviously the head teachers quite often set the agendas for the governor's meetings and i'm just concerned but particularly as this report relates to a head teacher's wrongdoing that every school in flintcher is going to go through this report um with that you know every governing body is going to go through this report does that make sense yeah
77. 00:32:34 and i can give you that assurance actually councillor lister because uh one of the things i have done as the chief officer for education is i have written to all schools um outlining obviously i mean drawing their attention to this uh very important report and its recommendations and i have asked for written assurance you know from every school that they have read the report that they have reflected
78. 00:32:57 you know the the recommendations from the report in terms of their own safeguarding practices um so i am asking them to confirm that to me in fact we've got virtually all responses now we're doing a final chase this week i expect that to be 100 by the end of the week but i have taken that action to ensure that i have received that reassurance from schools that you know they they and their governing bodies are aware of the really important recommendations that have come out of this review and that they are being reflected in their safeguarding practices
79. 00:33:28 Yeah, thank you very much. Councillor Marshall. Thank you, Chair. Just want to say something. My previous secondary school was the School of Finance, which is one of the schools that Neil Foden taught in. I was there a long time ago, about 50 years, wasn't it?
80. 00:33:55 Regarding the safeguarding, this goes both ways, really, because us counsellors can be targets from certain parents. And I'm a Father Christmas Santa Claus for one of my schools. And the first year I did it, they had a separate room. There was an elf there. The kids came in, got their presents and stuff. And the second year...
81. 00:34:24 they stuck me in a little corner at the end of the stage and i felt quite uncomfortable there because there was sometimes the parents would just send their kids in um and then the following year i brought it to the attention of of the chair of the governors and i said look this is not not right it's this works both ways so we've got to protect myself and to protect the child as well so what they did was they put the
82. 00:34:54 Instead of the chair where I sat in, right in the middle of the stage. So it was quite wide open to everybody so everybody could see what was going on. And that was better, actually, because all the other kids could see what was... Santa was giving presents to the other kids. So that worked out much better than being in a little room. That's it. Thank you. Jane?
83. 00:35:25 Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Marshall. I think that is an excellent example of why it is everybody's business. You have articulated why you have taken responsibility for safeguarding both yourself and those children. And also you've communicated that with like-minded people who also understand their responsibility. And I think that is an excellent example of how safeguarding works in practice and to be commended.
84. 00:35:54 Just wanted to mention as well that as part of the response to the Child Practice Review and the collective activity that is going on across the authority and in other areas, we at Infantry have reviewed the Section 5 process that we work through to ensure that we have taken on board many of the comments that you've made here today, but also the comments contained within the report and the recommendations themselves as well.
85. 00:36:23 and an ongoing piece of work is taking place to ensure that as you know the structure within safe within social services is a three-columned approach where we have adult services children's services and the service in the middle which supports services safeguarding being part of that we value that structure because it gives us an independence to the adult service and the children's service so that
86. 00:36:52 the safeguarding service that sits in the middle and commissioning in other areas means that we have the ability to challenge our peers and to know that we are structured within our service to let that happen and to work our way through to Craig and onto the chief executive should that be necessary. And so I just wanted to share that with you that section five will come into a larger part into the family of the
87. 00:37:19 safeguarding and commissioning service going forward. Thank you. Claire did you want to come in?
88. 00:37:27 Yes, thank you. And like Jane, I'd like to commend Councillor Marshall for the action that he took when he found himself in that particular situation. But again, you know, when schools are planning for events, they should be undertaking risk assessments. You know, they will have people in the building, all sorts of things going on. And I would expect safeguarding, you know, and the management of individuals in a situation such as Councillor Marshall was disguised in there should be within their risk assessment. So the sighting of that individual in terms of the activity that.
89. 00:37:57 they're doing should all be part of that but thank you councillor marshall that was a really important learning point craig did you want to come in um yeah i was just going to make an offer having
90. 00:38:11 heard the views and experiences of counsellors around whether social services write to all of our elected members just to remind them of the processes for making a referral to social services in relation to child protection so what the telephone number is what the email address is but also what to do out of office hours because obviously things happen at weekends and the evenings and we've got arrangements
91. 00:38:39 but also reminding members of the All Whale safeguarding app which really gives the processes and procedures for child protection work and also all the advice and systems that are on Flincher's website so whether we pull something together and push that out as a reminder for everyone. Yeah I think there was a lot of nodding there Craig, I think that would be really useful and much appreciated. I've got Councillor Jones. Yeah thanks Chair.
92. 00:39:10 um yeah what craig's just suggested is a fabulous idea um we've got a really good corporate safeguarding panel which myself and councillor eastwood and sit on the councillor thomas does as well it's um it is corporate it's right the way across the board including theater clear who sits on it as well so it's a really broad
93. 00:39:37 group of people who get together, discuss any issues. It's a really high level board as well. And it works really well, it really does. And training is one of the top priorities on that board. Fiona Mocco is excellent and she's really worked really hard with our...
94. 00:40:01 with Sharon Carney etc to make sure all the staff members in every portfolio are fully aware of safeguarding and have their appropriate training. As a governor, I'm the safeguarding governor at our local school, I've been on three different training courses.
95. 00:40:20 in this last 12 months two years uh the last one was two weeks ago and it was an all day one and it really was excellent it showed the forms that we we have to fill in how to do them how to do you know referrals properly um and it's quite frightening the afternoon session was really quite oh you know we really got brought it all home to you how important safeguarding is
96. 00:40:47 and so yeah so as a council i we are really well prepared with safeguarding procedures and if anybody could get that up on their phone i'm always pushing this it is really worthwhile having it on your phone even if it's just to remind you how to do the referrals or to advise somebody how to do a referral it is a really worthwhile app to have on yours
97. 00:41:11 phone so um deal i'm sorry about my hand it was so i didn't know which button to press i haven't done zoom for so long i'm used to doing teams um so deal can bear with for bearing with me no worries thank you christine um councillor lister sorry coming back again i was just wondering as a joint committee whether we felt that safeguarding training should be mandatory for all members um and whether that is
98. 00:41:41 something that's an acceptable ask of um of the council and of councillors um i just think i i personally think that all members should have some safeguarding training to be able to look out for signs of um well not very nice things going on um yeah and i just wondered whether that recommendation would be supported okay thank you um absolutely
99. 00:42:10 um we have done a series of training activities in the past the um the group a training um is available to members as well as other sections within the new safeguarding training procedures but in the past what we've done is provided safeguarding training for
100. 00:42:29 members as they start their new term in office. So as you're aware, new members and existing members have the opportunity to be refreshed on training opportunities and safeguarding has always been offered as part of the member services. I think you get me as your trainer, which is always a joy for you. But also in addition to that, we have done in the past.
101. 00:42:53 bespoke sessions at different committees. So where we've done a half hour slot before committee starts, where we've
102. 00:43:02 gone through some of the key principles that are a bit similar to the list that Craig made earlier regarding communication so you know what what to look out for what we're talking about when we talk about safeguarding how to make a referral what that process looks and feels like and an opportunity to ask questions in a safe space and so if that is an offer that
103. 00:43:25 members would like to take up then more than happy to facilitate that on the behalf of committees i know in the past i've been to education licensing committee um also obviously to health and social care so more than happy to re-offer that as an option i've got councillor gladys healy next ah thank you tess sorry for the delay it's not my machine um i just want to go one further
104. 00:44:07 I think as soon as councillors come to sign the declaration, they should be DBA checked. Because many councillors are invited to go around schools, go around many other places. And many councillors, I know when you are a governor, myself and they are governor for both primary and secondary.
105. 00:44:35 And we are DBA checked. DBS checked. And I think all councillors, as soon as they sign that declaration, they should be checked. That's just my opinion. Thank you, Councillor Healy. I've got Councillor Marshall. It's regarding the... There's a couple of things. DBS checked. Which level of DBS checked would that be? There's a basic...
106. 00:45:08 There's a standard and there's an enhanced and the enhanced takes quite a bit longer than the basic does. So it just really depends which one we would go for. The second part is regarding safeguarding training. Initially I heard that it was to do with how to identify safeguarding issues.
107. 00:45:35 But I think the training should also include how to protect ourselves, you know, because we could initially start off as a counsellor, you visit people, you go into their houses and then afterwards you think, oh, hang on a second, they could have accused me of stealing something. So we've got to sort of look into that.
108. 00:45:55 I met with a Senate member a few weeks ago before the election and invited him to come to my house. And he said, no, no, we've got to meet in a public place. You know, it's like Costco by Wilbur Roundabout. So I had to drive down there to meet him. So it's this protecting yourselves as well that needs to be included in this training. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Marshall. Lynn Bartlett.
109. 00:46:27 Thank you, Chair. On page 19 of the Gwyneth Action Plan, it talks about contact details being displayed prominently in schools. I just wondered if we're taking any action on that so that young people can very quickly find a phone number and contact somebody. Often it's easier for them to speak to a stranger than to someone in the school that they know. Thank you. Thanks. Should I bring Claire in on that?
110. 00:46:57 yeah i would expect schools to you know be displaying that kind of information um for for pupils to access you know emma you spend quite a bit of time going in and out of our schools darren are we able to give the committee any assurance that you've seen those kinds of pieces of information displayed um yes i can so um often when i've been in
111. 00:47:18 learners they are fully aware of who their dsps are in school and it does tend to be not just one senior member of staff it does tend to be a number so when you know they have a range of staff to go to if there is slt out there is always someone on site who they can go to and and it's having that trusted adult as well so if they do go and disclose to any member of staff on a school site that member of staff
112. 00:47:41 and use the procedures, can go and support and take that information and pass it on to the DSP and further afield so that can get dealt with in a very sensitive and
113. 00:47:54 swiftly manner as well. And there are a variety of ways that schools do signpost the DSPs and the safeguarding signposting in schools. There are posters and some schools have leaflets and those leaflets are displayed at the main reception that visitors can also pick up when they're going there for running sessions, working with young people, parents are visiting, carers are visiting and they are also displayed on open evenings and school events.
114. 00:48:22 So there are a variety of methods that are used and some schools do use different lanyard colours as well to show who are visitors.
115. 00:48:30 who are staff, who are the DSPs. So we do have a variety of methods. A proposed action going forward could be looking at what is the practice that's going on and sharing that practice amongst schools because we have done that in our cluster events as well and shared practice when we do go into schools saying what other schools have done. So that's something that, you know, reflecting on what's being said here, we could go away and do a bit of a review on that and just to see what.
116. 00:48:57 the holistic landscape is on that if that's of interest yeah and if i could perhaps come in there as well chat you know we do um require schools to undertake an evaluation of their safeguarding procedures um which they share with the local authority um you know
117. 00:49:13 and i would expect that i haven't looked at it for a little while i will confess um but you know those are the kinds of things we would expect schools to be responding to how are they making their safeguarding policy known to pupil staff visitors you know how are they encouraging people to be able to you know find that trusted adult if they want to so we'll go back and we'll have a look at how that is reflected in the questionnaires that we ask our schools to send in to us on a regular basis you want to come back lynn
118. 00:49:43 Thank you. Just to say thank you very much for that. But I do think trusted adult is one thing, but a stranger on the end of the phone is sometimes a safer bet. Whether there's any way we could look at that, the sort of child line equivalent, but going to somebody in the local authority outside the school structure. I just think there's something to be said for that. Thank you. Thanks, and I've got Councillor Hodge next. Thank you, Chair. Just with regards to the DVS checks.
119. 00:50:14 i'm governor i'm deputy chair governor of a primary school in my area we decided that all governors should have the enhanced dbs check and that's actually working becoming quite fruitful this morning we had appreciative inquiry workshops and the as governors we were able to access the school go in and engage with these workshops without a problem at all because everybody was quite happy they knew we'd all been doubly checked
120. 00:50:44 and i think it's uh to fully support gladys and i think it's something we should bring to full council and then sure it got it is motioned going forward thank you yes thanks council hodge councillor cunningham thank you thank you chair my side proposed that we hold a workshop in the future covering all these subjects that we've been talking about this afternoon it's very interesting but a lot of people a lot of councillors don't
121. 00:51:18 know what's going on i mean we're an elite body um this committee so if we had a workshop which will incorporate all counselors i think that would work wonders but i also agree with gladys and the the prior counselor about dbs checks i think it's important that we are because we're going into places where
122. 00:51:46 you know we could be with vulnerable people and it would do us it it would help us i think do our job properly so i i would move that we we have a workshop to cover all these issues that we've been discussing today i know there are further things on the program but you know um i think it's important that we know about all these things thank you chair
123. 00:52:15 thanks councillor cunningham craig did you want to come in on that i suppose for me thank you chair there's there's two things that i'm hearing that um
124. 00:52:26 Potentially, there may be need for wider counsel consideration. The first is around DBSs, and I just need to be really clear that there are legal parameters set for who can have a DBS and what level, and that's overseen by the Disclosure and Barring Service.
125. 00:52:46 everyone could have a basic dbs but only certain people legally can have an enhanced dbs so we'd have to work through what the options could be but also the cost of that and the administration of that just so that there's informed choices but as officers maybe through our corporate safeguarding board and you might want to agree that and recommend that that's something we take forward
126. 00:53:14 I think secondly, the thing that I'm hearing is around whether safeguarding training becomes mandatory, because a lot of the things that were covered there in the workshop would be covered in the mandatory, sorry, in the safeguarding training. So I wonder whether they are two things that we take away so that we can impact, assess and understand what the options are and potentially come back.
127. 00:53:42 um with some options and proposals thank you craig i've got councillor few next my um question is about page 30 about um a child presents its itself with a third party at a hospital without parental risk um consent what does happen it do
128. 00:54:10 Do hospitals get in touch with social services under those circumstances? Or if a feasible explanation is given, do they just treat them? What does happen under those circumstances is my question, please. Thanks, Councillor Thieu. Jane, should I bring you in there? Thank you, Chair.
129. 00:54:34 um thank you for the question yeah so as you'll notice within the action plan this was an action for uh the betsy padwalder university health board um and um betsy have a dedicated safeguarding team who sits across north wales but who work within the three regions of the health board so west east and central and as a local authority
130. 00:55:03 whether it be education, but particularly social services, we have very strong links with our health board colleagues. So they have strong referral processes within the service, but the...
131. 00:55:15 themes that have come from this particular child practice review mean that those need to be reinforced as you can see from the recommendation within the child practice review so colleagues within the health board have been reinforcing the procedures and also reinforcing the process of making referrals and within their own safeguarding service ensuring that they are well cited and
132. 00:55:45 training the staff within the ED departments and other areas where outpatients may attend. Just for clarity as well, the social services
133. 00:55:57 are the jurisdiction body, if you like, for safeguarding. So the health board have their own safeguarding service and team. They link then in with social services as part of the procedures from the All Wales safeguarding procedures. So yeah, they are taking the action, but also they have resources available to them to ensure that their staff are well-informed and well-trained on the matters.
134. 00:56:26 thank you jane under these circumstances this person was it you know in a position of power and he's acted in plain sight um for so many years you know it must be difficult for staff below him to act you can imagine and from the conversations that are recorded it's been a very difficult situation um
135. 00:56:54 I'm just so sad it's gone on for so long. But thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor Thew. And I think your reflections are those of all of us on the call as well. It's close, isn't it? You know, it's nearby. And it happened in a local authority that we know well. And that thinking the unthinkable really hits you between the eyes in this particular case. And if nothing else, you take away from today.
136. 00:57:22 take that away as the most important thing that we know what to what to do if we have those thoughts and feelings and ideas about a circumstance that we find uncomfortable that we use that and we do something about it is our duty to do that. Craig did you want to come in on this one as well? It's just adding on that theme and I just want to make the point when we were talking around DBSs, DBSs are
137. 00:57:55 part of safeguarding but or because someone has a dbs it doesn't mean that there aren't safeguarding risks and that professional curiosity that really thinking the unthinkable needs to happen even with people who've got no matter what level of dbs i know it's an obvious point but i would want to make it that a dbs is an exolution it's part of an assurance and that mindset needs to continue look councillor mckeo next
138. 00:58:27 Thank you Chair. I think Craig has just taken some of what I was going to say actually, and that this person that we're discussing actually had an enhanced DBS. It didn't prevent him from going and doing these despicable things. A DBS is only as good as the day that it's actually requested. They've then got 364 days when that DBS is granted to then go on and commit.
139. 00:58:55 whatever acts they may commit before they are further checked again. So I just don't want members to get lost in the fact that it isn't a silver bullet to everything, just to have a DBS check. So that was all. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. I've got Councillor Mackie next. Thank you, Chair. Just to say, when I was first elected in 2008, we were all automatically DBS checked. But then when that expired, it was decided, I was told they weren't continuing with it.
140. 00:59:25 So there must have been some decision taken at some point. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Mackie. Lisa Allen. Thank you. I just wanted to add in on that about the DBS. It also requires someone to have been caught for it to show up on a DBS in some capacity. So while it should form a part of the picture, it's not the only part. I sit on a bit of a funny place for this. I'm a lecturer in health and social care. My other half is a primary school head teacher in a different local authority.
141. 00:59:58 uh so i look at it from both a health and social care point of view really in the stuff that i teach and as somebody who works with young people and it's the professional curiosity bit for me and members of staff having the confidence in being able to look at the little stuff i find a lot of safeguarding training focuses on the big stuff so the big types and signs of abuse that we're looking for whereas in all of these reports this one included it's the smaller stuff that we need to be looking at those
142. 01:00:27 parts where your gut tells you that something's not right and the parts where you know the background conversations are there's something not quite right about that person and i think a lot of the safeguarding training doesn't build that confidence in people in trusting that instinct and trusting that sort of gut
143. 01:00:44 something's not quite right here. So while I think that the training is good, the stuff that I've had from Flincher is very, very good. I don't think it is enough and the quality differs. So yes, we need that big stuff, but we also need the time within that training to build those conversations around what do we do when we're not quite sure what's not right, but there's something not right. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. If I could just come in on the back of that, it's also on what?
144. 01:01:13 Councillor Thew said as well because when I was reading the child practice review I mean it is extraordinary isn't it how many missed opportunities there were and you see in the report quite a lot references to people saying things like you know oh I'm concerned but I'm not sure it reaches the threshold or I don't want to involve the police and probably a lot of that was to do with the senior level of the person involved but in terms of flinch I can think of an example from when I was at school and of course this goes back quite some time but a teacher
145. 01:01:42 I was at school with after I'd left school in 2010 a few years later they got sacked and a prohibition order was put on them but I remember when I'd been at school sort of six seven eight years before then I'd never been taught by this teacher but I knew I didn't want to be because all the kids knew you didn't want to be taught by this teacher it was common knowledge this teacher was a poor teacher and I guess my question is
146. 01:02:10 So those little things like Lisa said, how do you pick up on that stuff that's going on that you might not, people might not sort of proactively come, a lot of it's reactive, isn't it? How do you pick up on the stuff that's just going on beneath the surface? Because in that case, you know, if, I think if, and it's, you know, voice of the child is mentioned a lot in this, isn't it? And I wonder maybe in that case, and we are talking 20 years ago, if the children maybe had have been listened to just a little bit more earlier on, action might have been taken sooner.
147. 01:02:37 And that sort of leads me on to another question, which goes back to the child practice review, is obviously there was a litany of issues with this particular person. How do you ensure swift action when certain things might not meet a particular threshold? Because obviously, whilst all of that's going on, whether it's in this case or in the case of the teacher in my school, there are still children within the vicinity of that person. So how do you ensure the processes are swift enough to deal with stuff when it is going on? Claire, did you want to come in on that?
148. 01:03:14 Yeah, I mean, you raise some really good points. I mean, I would hope that our culture has moved on significantly since the time that we were all in school, because I mean, yes, you know, I think we could all probably think back to our time in education and know that there were possibly some members of staff that you would do your best to avoid.
149. 01:03:33 um i think you know we do a lot of work with our young people now in terms of developing their skills in terms of understanding their rights understanding what they need to do you know if they have a concern so
150. 01:03:47 i would hope that the culture has shifted that you know young people feel far more confident to do that obviously you know we've got social media now that you know there are lots of lots of information out on there that makes it easier for young people to access that information independently um i think our culture in schools has certainly shifted i mean i can i can give you some assurance that um you know it's certainly during my time as chief officer and certainly over you know the last few years
151. 01:04:17 i've seen a significant shift in the way that our schools raise concerns um around um professionals you know where there there are question marks or there have been issues in relation to their conduct i can you know i can i can attest to the number of conversations that claire sinnes our dsp has with schools um and it's making sure and there has been a real shift i would say over the last few years where head teachers do not
152. 01:04:47 take it upon themselves to investigate a concern they they know because of the training that we've done and the constant messages that we have given them it is not for them to investigate they need to refer it up they need to take advice from our designated safeguarding person children's services and then we know that there is a proper process within children's service services where those matters are discussed
153. 01:05:12 you know the sort of the initial facts assessed whether that needs to progress to the to the next level and i know how many more section fives we are dealing with which i think is a positive thing i do see it as a positive thing because i think schools are far better now at identifying that that is a professional concern they need to seek advice and it needs to go through a process and i hope our
154. 01:05:39 your children's services colleagues would agree it is creating a significant workload i can i can tell you that um but rightly so um so yes i i would hope that our young people are are better informed have greater confidence to do that and again i feel our schools are certainly much much tighter in managing those procedures but there is never room for complacency so it is a constant message that we are reiterating and i don't know whether jane would want to add anything to that
155. 01:06:08 Thank you, Claire. Thank you, Chair. Just to say as well that in the Wales Safeguarding Procedures that we made reference to, which is available on Council laptops and iPads, it's loaded automatically onto your Council equipment, but also you can download it as an app. The Section 5 part of the procedures has been recently released, and I say today. So as part of that,
156. 01:06:36 one of the sections very obviously under section five is the initial response and reporting requirements and contained within there is about you know all the things that we've talked about keeping treating it seriously recording information responding reporting immediately as we've talked about and there's also actions for the employer so ensuring immediate safety of those involved conduct ensuring that internal policies on safeguarding
157. 01:07:06 are applied immediately making sure you do undertaking a risk assessment notification there's lots of information in there that Claire's already alluded to and now set out in very very clearly in the procedures what needs to happen how to make the report what needs to happen following that the beauty of the safeguarding procedures and the app is that it takes you step by step through the process nothing is hidden
158. 01:07:34 Nothing is a surprise. Everybody understands their roles and responsibilities within it. Thanks both Claire and Jane for those reassurances. Councillor Crease. Thanks, Chair. At risk of appearing a bit repetitive, part of my previous life surrounded safeguarding and in particular around about IT. But the points Lisa raised and the point you yourself, Sam, raised the questions. I think as adults, we have to understand the huge,
159. 01:08:10 degree of courage it takes from a young person to make a disclosure first off we need to understand the degree to which they probably don't want to make that disclosure but they're stepping forward to make that disclosure and the second thing we have to understand is adults responsible adults that the process that Claire and Jane have referred to if we don't see that process or if the adult doesn't see that process being followed
160. 01:08:40 that's a subsequent flag and they need to stand up and beat their chest. And that perhaps is where we feel as adults. You know, we've made the report, we've reported the concern and we're going to stand back from that. But if the process hasn't been followed and if you can see the process hasn't been followed, you kick it further up the road. You make sure that you get involved at whatever level to ensure that process has been followed to prevent the kind of
161. 01:09:08 Horrific things, and there's no point in burying our heads in the sand about it, the horrific things that happen to young people and indeed adults, vulnerable adults, our role, our responsibility is to ensure that process is followed and that that process is robust and arrives at some sort of outcome. Thank you very much for that, Councillor Crease. I don't see anybody else indicating so.
162. 01:09:39 Before we move to the recommendations, I'm conscious that a few suggestions have been made by members throughout. We've had the suggestion, I think, Councillor Cunningham moved as a proposal to have a workshop. We also had Councillor Gladys Healy about DBS. Lynn Bartlett mentioned about the possibility of having a phone number potentially that goes to somebody at the local authority rather than somebody at the school.
163. 01:10:05 um and then there's also mandatory safeguarding training so I'm just thinking is there I mean I've got the Councillor Cunningham moved the proposal to have a workshop so I'd look for a seconder for that but I'm just wondering if anybody else would like to I think Councillor Crease that's the seconder for the Councillor Cunningham proposal but I'm just conscious if anybody else would like to move any additional recommendations Councillor Lister yeah I mean I'd like to propose that mandatory safeguarding training is is put on for all councillors
164. 01:10:34 all members and in fact anybody who worked but i'm pretty sure it already is for anybody who works with young people in the cat as council employees but i know i think if that's the case then that doesn't need to be added but um certainly for councillors that it is mandatory that we have safeguarding training thanks councillors do you have a second for that recommendation i think sort of councillor buckley in first there um okay i'll
165. 01:11:04 unless there's anybody else who wants to indicate to make any further recommendations um we've got the three on the agenda paper the first is that members note the contents of the Gwynedd child practice review and endorses the Flintshire education and youth and social services action plan and the progress report to date the second is that committee members request a six monthly progress update including outcome focused assurance measures until all actions are complete
166. 01:11:28 And the third is that committee members should seek assurance that all matters requiring resolution identified within the action plan are escalated and addressed through the North Wales Safeguarding Board. And then on top of that, we've got the recommendation from Councillor Cunningham, seconded by Councillor Crease, which is to have a workshop to go through some of the issues that have been...
167. 01:11:47 talked about today um i'm not sure if margaret or has got some wording for that particular one and then the the recommendation from councillor lister seconded by councillor buckley which is to have mandatory safeguarding training for all councillors um yeah sure we also have the suggestion from craig that um that they would have a look at the mandatory
168. 01:12:12 that the dbs checks for all counsellors and i think he said he would take it to the safeguarding board and that might sort of if that would be the case then uh perhaps that would that wouldn't we would need to do both have a workshop and have the safeguarding training and jane also made the offer that they would be willing to come to half an hour sessions before
169. 01:12:39 scrutiny committees as well so we've got quite a lot on the table but I think it was all all that was encompassed by Craig's offer that they went away as a safeguarding board and looked at the best way forward perhaps for that for that one is that is that everybody's understanding or just mine does Craig want to come back in on that one chair
170. 01:13:03 So I wondered whether there's a series of recommendations. So we have a corporate safeguarding board that we take those to the corporate safeguarding board and we work up some options. Now obviously it's where do we take those then because this committee meets once a year and whether it's with the chairs of the committees we then agree how we take them forward. I just want to get the governance right.
171. 01:13:31 So we could take that to the Coordinating Work Committee group, which would take that forward, and I would imagine it would then go to full council. Thank you, Chair. Thanks, Margaret. Council Lister, does that sort of cover what you would hope for? Yeah, I just think the difference between a workshop is that it's optional whether members want to go on that, and I really do feel that it needs to be mandatory. So as long as that's encompassed within what...
172. 01:14:02 craig is taking to the safeguarding board then i'm absolutely sorry there's scaffolding going up outside my house it's really loud no worries thank you so we've got the three recommendations on the paper and margaret have you have you got a form of words perhaps for the the one that might encompass the other issues we've brought up yes so that the corporate safeguarding um
173. 01:14:27 board considers uh looks at the options and reports back to um the the co-ordinating committee to move move this forward okay so i'll look for a mover for those four recommendations councillor priest and that seconded um councillor buckley i saw you first again um all those in favor of those four recommendations any against
174. 01:15:05 second screen any abstentions okay so those four recommendations are carried thank you um with that we'll move on to agenda item five which is expansion of specialist education provision for children with additional learning needs and i believe jeanette rock will introduce this item thank you chair
175. 01:15:29 Yes, so our report this afternoon provides an overview of the specialist provision that we have here in Flintshire County Council and the proposals to expand that. So members of the Education and Youth Committee will know that this is a thing that we talk about very often in terms of the provision that's available for our learners across Flintshire and how we have seen a significant increase in demand for specialist provision similar to other authorities across Wales.
176. 01:15:56 Section 103 within the report outlines what we currently have as an authority and in line with our responsibilities we took a review of the provision back in 2020.
177. 01:16:08 which outlined a number of areas of need with regards to provision for learners with social communication, sort of a neurodiverse profile, and also those with behaviour and emotional social difficulties. And the report at that point identified the need for significant expenditure to secure our own in-house provision.
178. 01:16:30 And in response to that need, we took the opportunity to include a programme of expansion within the Council's Strategic Outline Plan, which is for the use of the grant funding from Welsh Government under the Sustainable Communities Grant for Learning, which gives favourable investment rates for authorities with regards to capital expansion of provision. And that report was signed off by Cabinet and then subsequently by...
179. 01:17:02 In 2025, however, we decided that it was important to undertake a further review given the increase of need that we were experiencing. It was quite a different landscape from 2020 in terms of the demand that we had then compared to the demand that we were experiencing, as I say, back in 2025. And so we commissioned a further review and we sought an external specialist to work alongside us and we found that process to be very important.
180. 01:17:31 and informative in terms of the work that we did. So the author of the report that is attached within the document was a professional who had done a similar role to myself down in South Wales for a number of years. He'd worked alongside a number of other authorities when they were considering their provision and brought some external oversight of effective practice across other authorities alongside what was happening within our authority.
181. 01:17:58 And so we use that report to then inform a series of recommendations around the shorter term and the longer term developments of our provision. And you'll see within the report that we've identified two clear phases of priority working in relation to this piece of work.
182. 01:18:19 and so in section 107 that identifies what we prioritised as phase one and the first part of that was a review of our specialist provision and really that was in relation to the designation of each of the provision that we've got and we had a number of settings there where although the designation was around moderate learning difficulties
183. 01:18:43 they had actually changed to respond to a differing need and it was important that we were accurately reflecting what the provision was. So that's a piece of work that is underway.
184. 01:18:55 The second priority was about an additional setting for provision under Usgal Pencork. Usgal Pencork is our primary specialist school and for the first time ever really that I've worked for the local authority we have a waiting list for some primary age children who need that specialist provision.
185. 01:19:16 And so we have established a model of a satellite from Uskul Penkhorch that operates at Uskul Bryn Gwalja. And that's been in operation for over a year now and is working very successfully. And we're in negotiation with Uskul Penkhorch as a school and looking wider at the school network as to where other satellite provision may be suitable to be placed. But again, that's a priority given our waiting list for that particular.
186. 01:19:46 sector. We are very mindful that we need to increase at a significant level the overall capacity of our specialist schools. So here in Flintshire we have phased schools, we have a primary school, as referenced, and then secondary school, both based in the Flint area but attached to mainstream school campuses.
187. 01:20:10 And so the work has already started looking at those campuses to see whether they can actually accommodate the increase in demand, which would see us moving from current numbers of 280 pupils to the potential for 400 pupils within Flinshire who would be able to access that provision. The next part of the proposed development was the
188. 01:20:37 um redevelopment really of a school croissati um school in flint so members will be aware of the positive development of the the new welsh medium provision in oak and halt for for a school croissati and this was an opportunity for us to look at that um that building and see whether that would work successfully for us as an alternative education setting and some initial work that's been done
189. 01:21:02 around adaptation of that building suggests that it would be and we would be able to develop for learners again with more sort of neurodiverse needs ranging from primary through to secondary with the focus really being on outreach from the setting but then the opportunity to provide an educational offer and reduce our dependency on out of county provision where we currently make a number of
190. 01:21:31 placements for our learners now. And then the final part of phase one was around the development of on-site inclusion centres across our secondary schools.
191. 01:21:43 Members may be aware that attendance at our schools is still a priority. It's a national priority for Welsh Government to improve the levels of engagement. We're still at pre-COVID levels and that obviously is a concern and we're working hard with our schools to secure that improvement and also to reduce the levels of exclusion across schools.
192. 01:22:02 and we see the development of on-site inclusion settings as an opportunity for schools to respond proactively to the needs of their particular communities, their learners, and offer a broader curriculum offer in support of their learners.
193. 01:22:19 Section two outlines the resources that are required to progress phase one, and members will note the significant investment there in terms of capital expenditure, but also the revenue costs around meeting the needs of learners. I think it's important to state that at the moment, costs of an independent provision through an out-of-county provider for learners tend to range from
194. 01:22:47 55 000 per child per year up to 96 000 per child per year and so whilst it looks like a significant investment there is an element there that makes better use of of our money uh public money as an authority to ensure um the education is appropriate it's closer located to home and our learners are retained within within flintshire
195. 01:23:12 As Councillor Eastwood mentioned at the start of the meeting, the proposals have been through Cabinet and agreed at this point, and so we are looking forward to starting to progress phase one. If I stop there, Chair, and open for any questions. Thank you, Jeannette. I've got Councillor Cunningham first. Jeannette, I was just wondering, you were mentioning us called Croissati in Flint.
196. 01:23:40 to be used. Were you talking about the new Oskull Kreisati or the old Kreis, Oskull Kreisati on Chester Road in Flint? You got me a bit confused there.
197. 01:23:54 Apologies for the confusion, but I don't imagine that our head teacher of the new building would be very happy, having not been in the school very long, if I then come along and say, right, Mr Jones, I would like your school. To confirm, it is the school that you mentioned on Chester Road, so it's the old school building that we would be looking to refurbish. Fine, thank you. Thank you. Councillor Buckley. Yeah, thank you, Chair.
198. 01:24:24 I just want to say a big part, both schools, Uskull Pencork and Uskull Mice Hoverid, play in the town of Flint. I did state at the beginning that my sister works at Uskull Pencork, but they come down and get involved in the community, in all things community, Flint Festival, the Age and Dementia Coffee Mornings, make a great contribution to the town. And I welcome...
199. 01:24:51 the extra provisions proposed here. My question is, with the new Welsh Government now with supposedly withholding 340 million for education, which was supposed to go to councils like ours for the extra provision of ALM, how does this scupper our plans or does it?
200. 01:25:16 I think the money I think that you're referring to is the SEND consequentials. Is that the money that? Yeah, I think Claire will jump in here, but I don't anticipate that the decisions around that funding would impact on the capital investment through the Sustainable Communities for Learning. I think that's a different area of funding. But if I'm incorrect, Claire, would you then come in and provide assurance to the committee? No, no, you are quite correct, Jeanette.
201. 01:25:45 Yes, we would all express...
202. 01:25:48 our frustration that the new administration have chosen not to commit that funding that they've had as a consequential and I'd like to reassure this committee that the discussions between local authorities associations of directors of education in Wales and directors of social that's all still very live we are still making sure that Welsh Government do understand the level of pressures within our school budgets and within councils in terms of making quite rightly making the appropriate provision for children with additional learning needs so that conversation
203. 01:26:17 continues um the new administration are making noises that they are they still have other funding available and that they do recognize there needs to be a sustainable model of financial support to meet additional learning needs but as yet we don't have any details of that but Jeanette is quite right you know we are you know we are using um ALN capital grant funding that we've had obviously council is making a commitment
204. 01:26:41 know through its own capital provision um so hopefully no we don't see that as having a direct impact um you know on on these proposals but i'm sure everybody would welcome you know the commitment to that investment because you know we have a number of children that we are struggling at the moment you know to appropriately meet their needs our schools are doing a great job uh in supporting learners perhaps that do you know that do
205. 01:27:05 really need to be in in that specialist provision and we really welcome their commitment you know to do that but but ultimately if a young person or a child's need is such that they need specialist provision we we need to do everything we can to make sure that that's available yeah thank you councillor mackie thank you chair um i'd like to have a look at um some of the information in the report and also in the um
206. 01:27:33 uh the other report that's appended to it um if i look at page 37 um i see on there that it says i'm just trying to find it because you never can quickly when you're doing this no there it is just under the um uh the section that's um uh it's what's not a graph is it the chart it says the current revenue spend on out of county aln placements
207. 01:28:01 stands at 26 million pounds now if i go to page 50 i know it's not easy to dash to page 50 but i'm trying my best to if i go to page 50 um there's a the second um chart on the page uh overall costs of outer county placements table two
208. 01:28:29 um it shows uh education costs in 24 25 of 4.5 million residential costs of 2.1 million total cost 6.734 million um not the same as the one in the main report at the start um which did say that it was just referring to aln costs so i wondered if somebody could um
209. 01:28:59 talk to me about that. But looking at Table 2 again, in fact there's a number of tables in this section, Table 4 for instance, and they draw a conclusion that funding has increased between 2022 and 2025.
210. 01:29:28 And I'm not sure I agree with that. If we go back to the budget setting time, we know that in 24-25 and 23-24 there was a 5% cut in education budgets. But in actual fact, that was put by some people as an actual increase in budgets.
211. 01:30:01 actual budget was cut, because of funding things like teachers pay and other costs that had to be increased because of inflation, the actual budget given to schools was actually more, but it actually didn't buy more, it actually bought less because it...
212. 01:30:29 because we're actually talking of converting that money into resources at the new inflated costs. And in fact, I don't know a school anywhere that is telling me that they are flush with resources now. I think a lot of schools are telling me...
213. 01:30:51 that they are not flush with resources, their resources are extremely limited and this applies particularly in the ALN area that schools struggle to find the necessary resources in order to support children who come within that category and this is a huge concern to me. It is also something that I raised.
214. 01:31:20 at the time that the budget cuts were being considered because clearly schools are going to concentrate initially on teaching classes because that is the majority of the work they do and it's always more difficult finding resources for the extras that are there.
215. 01:31:48 even though it is a requirement that schools do provide the necessary provision under ALN. So my feeling is that these figures here are slightly misleading because they appear to show an improving situation in relation to resources which I'm convinced has not been the case.
216. 01:32:15 So that was what I wanted to talk about there. The other thing I was interested in is, in preparing this paper, are we looking at reducing out-of-county placement costs solely, or are we looking at improving the resources that are available for...
217. 01:32:49 the general ALN provision within our schools, because I am convinced that that is an area of extremely significant need now because, well, unfortunately, more schools are finding it impossible to work within their budgets, particularly primary schools.
218. 01:33:16 I think that ALN is probably one of the reasons for that. I've gone on for rather a long time, Chair, so I'll refrain from there. Thanks, Councillor Mackey. Clare, did you want to come in and respond to some of those points? Yeah, I think Juliette wants to, please. If I could come back first, Chair Dilch. I think you have highlighted something with regards to the report, Councillor Mackey, where in section 2.1...
219. 01:33:45 At that, under the table, it says the current revenue spend on out-of-county ALM placement stands at £26 million. And that should state all out-of-county placements. So that covers education and care. So around £7 million of that £26 million would be specific to education.
220. 01:34:06 The remainder of costs would be around care, but also the requirement for us in education to make provision for children with ALN in other mainstream schools outside of Flintshire. It also covers hospital education as well. So it would cover a range of provision there. But I think that's, you know, it's I think there's an error. It shouldn't have had the ALN before the provision. OK, in terms of the the report within.
221. 01:34:33 the the specialist report then that would have been in the previous financial year talking about the amounts there our expenditure on day placements has increased significantly and that is directly linked to the available provision that we have as the local authority and the need to make more um out of county provision as we call the same so provision in non-maintained settings so our expenditure on day placements has gone up significantly in the um
222. 01:34:59 last financial year and the current financial that we're in, in response to the waiting list that we've got. So that's why there would be a difference in the expenditure within the report from the specialist and what we're stating as our expenditure now. Talking about whether this will reduce out-of-county costs, that's the intention.
223. 01:35:24 um is that we have our own provision that we're then not having to pay significant um cost for day placements you know at a cost of 96 000 for a child that that is significant but also it is about the quality of that provision that we then are able to um you know it's our provision um councillor buckley mentioned um the the contribution of pen core and my suffered
224. 01:35:50 Pencore had a recent Essence inspection and had a fantastic report and we know that my software has recently been inspected as well and we're awaiting that report but anticipate that that will be very favourable as well and so you know we know that our schools are providing a high quality education for our learners and similarly with our resource provision
225. 01:36:12 where we've had recent inspections of those. I'm thinking of Uskal Mycevelin, our social communication provision over in Hollywell. Again, a very positive comment regarding the provision that's there. And so we would say yes, from a cost perspective, that it's better to have our own provision, but also about having oversight of that provision and what's being delivered, and also the locality. So again,
226. 01:36:39 coming back to Councillor Buckley about the positive contribution that our learners are making to the town of Flint. You know, our learners can make positive contributions across the local authority rather than being in many cases over the border in England. So that's sort of the priority around bringing learners back. I think you went on, Councillor Mackie, to talk about whether this would...
227. 01:37:02 these proposals would impact on the funding in mainstream schools and I take the point that you're making there is you know obviously that's where we want our investment to start isn't it so that we don't end up with that highly specialist need that we can do that early intervention as much as possible and we've worked hard as officers to get an understanding of the costs that ALN need
228. 01:37:25 um present to to our schools and to collate that on on behalf of the council and i can see claire's put her hand up there so i'm going to pause there and hand over to claire at that point okay thank you jeanette i mean councillor mackie you know you're a governor and you know um that obviously schools
229. 01:37:43 budgetary situations are extremely challenging you know you refer to the top slicing of the total cost pressures of schools over the previous three years three percent wasn't it over you know each year over the last three years which undoubtedly you know has had an impact on school budgets you know we all recognize that but as members of the council trying to obviously get to that legal and balanced budget you know that was something obviously that you know elected members
230. 01:38:10 you know you know it went through council didn't it and i know some individual members didn't vote for it but you know that was carried because otherwise the council could have found itself in a very very difficult situation so you know we do recognize obviously that that has had an impact on school budgets and we also know that's compounded by the falling pupil numbers as well don't we in terms of school funding
231. 01:38:31 But, you know, I would just like to remind the committee that for 26-27, there was no top slice to schools' budgets and the additional funding that should have been cut from the school's quantum, the school's pot, for reflecting that loss in pupil numbers was not removed from the school's pot and was kept within the budget and schools were, you know, advised that, you know, that they're...
232. 01:38:55 that funding there you know should be directed towards helping the cost pressures around pupils with additional learning needs you know and i think it's fair to say you know that
233. 01:39:04 you know schools get their delegated budgets and there is an expectation that a you know a proportion of that budget is to meet the needs of children who are identified as having additional learning needs you know that it is that's what the money is for it is to support all of the pupils in the school and acknowledging that you know a proportion of those will have additional learning needs so it is it is right and proper that schools should be investing their money in making that provision i think though that what we're all recognizing here is that the level of the need of
234. 01:39:33 some learners the level of complexity of some learners means that they do need more specialist support or they may need additional support within schools that obviously you know schools you know need to find we delegate Jeanette you may want to talk about how we delegate the funding you know to schools I think that would be important for the committee to understand we do get grant funding from Welsh Government for supporting additional learning needs and we delegate that
235. 01:40:01 to our schools as Welsh Government directors to do. And in terms of the level of cost pressure in the system around additional learning needs, under the previous Welsh Government administration, we did a huge amount of work across all 22 authorities and through the WLGA to really articulate the true cost.
236. 01:40:25 of ALM provision across Wales and the level of demand and and how that was having a significant impact on council spending and on school spending to try and encourage obviously the Welsh Government to continue to invest you know in that educate you know in the education of our most vulnerable learners as I say we've had a change of administration you know we continue to press that issue but you know you just want to talk about how the funding is delegated and that is and that is based on
237. 01:40:54 discussions and disagreements with our head teachers, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And we've agreed to keep the formula under review to ensure that it is fit for purpose. And, you know, the priority around that funding, we recognise, you know, that there is a fixed pot and it is about getting it to those with most need. And so within the primary sector, we revised the funding formula and we use PLAS coding now that identifies a level of need.
238. 01:41:22 So it ranges from one to three where a school can identify the
239. 01:41:30 how much intervention a child would need and so they identify that in terms of their particular children they go through all of their children who have been identified as as ALN who have an individual development plan and make a judgment about the level of need of support that that people will have and then to support the process to ensure that the money is fairly distributed my team the ALN team will do a moderation activity around that to ensure that they
240. 01:41:58 they are supportive of that, that they agree that it reflects the true needs of the child, so that we've got some assurance around that money being allocated appropriately. In the secondary sector, we've actually been delegating money to secondary schools for a longer period of time, and we use the cognitive ability test alongside other information around the individual development plans, and that's an independent assessment.
241. 01:42:23 that provides advice on particular areas of skill or ability that a child may have and we use that then as i say to to capture the potential needs of a school i think the challenge that some of our schools experience particularly the primary schools is that money is retrospective and so the money comes in based on
242. 01:42:44 that level of need at that point and straddles two academic years, which may be a challenge. And we've had conversations with our schools about whether money should follow learners and what process that might have. And as I've said, you know, we are very open.
243. 01:43:03 collaborative with our schools to say if there is a better methodology around allocation of funding then it's something that we will consider and we have sort of tested out the idea of money following learners and there are a number of potential challenges around that so it is as we say under review but designed to actually get the pot as it is to those um who need it most councillor lister
244. 01:43:35 Thank you. Yeah, my question is, I'm fully supportive of expanding the ALM provision.
245. 01:43:41 My question is around recruitment and recruitment particularly of teaching assistants having been part of the meeting on Tuesday and heard some of the difficulties I think about people who traditionally go into teaching assistant roles to help with maths and learning and the role has definitely changed with the increased number of pupils with additional needs so I was just wondering in like what kind of drives have you got to recruit people that are perhaps prepared to help with personal care perhaps even health care
246. 01:44:11 um and and and then yeah supporting more challenging like behaviors really that might be displayed with children's with with ALM so yeah that's my question thank you and it's a really important question um in terms of that because we are looking at potential quite significant expansion here and I think Claire you alluded to the um the role of our adult learning um group isn't it in in terms of securing appropriate um
247. 01:44:40 career pathways, really, and training for learners. Our pupil referral unit, you know, they currently do supportive training of staff across the authority as well. They will offer, as we said, we've referenced team teach training where that's about de-escalation, about supporting learners. Sorry, we haven't mentioned that. I'm thinking of another meeting I've just been in. So we offer de-escalation training to...
248. 01:45:08 to our learners, to our staff to enable them to have that, but that offer is there to teaching assistants as well. We are looking to engage with providers.
249. 01:45:20 to ensure that the offer is there through the adult learning. But also I think it is about promotion of those career pathways as well through our schools. We have a youth engagement progression framework. We have a forum where we meet with partners with Careers Wales, with the DWP, where we talk about opportunities for learners and then we're able to promote those. So through our careers offices, we can talk about these as very real and realistic opportunities for people.
250. 01:45:49 going forward are you on mute sorry there we go sorry yeah i was i don't know if lisa's still on the call but um some of the best tas that i've worked with have been school leavers um that are perhaps taking a gap year or um sort of wondering you know trying to work out what they might want to do and i was just wondering whether a connection with the college and with the health and social care team there you might because you are going to need a large number of
251. 01:46:21 ta's aren't you to fulfill the expansion to the alm provision um and i know in social committee we've talked a lot about the difficulties in recruitment for various um different posts within social care and and i just foresee this being a bit of a gap and and whether there you have any plans really to to drive that recruitment to be able to to deliver this service thank you chair by i chip in
252. 01:46:49 yeah yeah thank you councillor lister i mean obviously schools are in
253. 01:46:53 charge of their own recruitment obviously you know they are their own employers but you're quite right we need to try and help develop a you know a pool of people with the appropriate you know skills qualifications and the interest actually in undertaking this role so the meeting you referred to earlier in the week was our education consultative committee where we meet with our representatives of you know the trade unions involved in the education workforce and again this is a very live issue and you know we've used our expertise as Jeanette has referred to within our school
254. 01:47:23 in delivering training you know around team teach de-escalation you know we have a huge amount of expertise within our specialist schools for example you know in Pencourt and Mice Hovrid so again how can we strategically think about how perhaps we support them to provide that expertise you know through training but as you mentioned we have a very strong adult community learning partnership in conjunction with Wrexham County Borough Council had an excellent inspection for that last year
255. 01:47:52 And again, we'd offered some standard classroom assistant training pathways through that. So I think that's something we've committed to explore in terms of developing perhaps a more specialist type of route.
256. 01:48:04 for people who may be interested in a career in this section. I'd be certainly welcome to have conversations, you know, with Lisa in terms of how we can, you know, further improve our links with our, you know, local FE providers. And as Jeanette said, really excite young people to see that there are career pathways for them. But this is going to be a very crowded space. You know, the new Plaid administration have, you know, recently announced, you know, a significant investment. I think that's where the same consequentials have gone, a significant investment in the inspection.
257. 01:48:33 expansion of childcare for two-year-olds and again none of us would disagree that that's a really important thing to do but there is going to be again a huge demand for an early years workforce you know to help meet the demand there so you know I think it is going to be challenging but you know we've got to find ways to work together I think to try and you know develop
258. 01:48:53 pathways and training programs that would you know mean that schools then do have a source of um you know people within the communities that you know that can be you know encouraged to apply for those kinds of roles so that's certainly a piece of work we've committed to education consultative committee to have a think about over the summer and then start thinking about how we might start to formalize uh some of those arrangements i can see lisa's popped her hand up chair lisa do you want to come in
259. 01:49:20 Yeah, just very, very briefly on that. Thanks, Fran. Thanks, Claire. I really, really appreciate that. I am still on the call just so we all know. Yeah, it's something that we're trying to do a little bit more in FE as well in terms of getting our learners more industry-related experience and being more involved in our local communities. I know that some of my learners go to...
260. 01:49:42 the existing ALM provisions, a lot of my learners will go to Oskol Pencork and Oskol Mysufrid. And I think I had one this year as well that went to one of Craig's mental health organisations, if I remember rightly. I'm sure she's had a few very positive conversations with you as well, Craig. And so, yeah, that would definitely be something that we would like to be more involved in. And I just wanted to say adioch to those ALM provisions that we have already that provide really, really positive industry related experiences to some of my learners.
261. 01:50:11 so yeah definitely developing on those partnerships is is is something we would i would personally and professionally um like to be involved in thank you thank you lisa i don't have anybody else with their hand up um so i will move to the recommendation there's just the one in the paper which is that the committees endorse the need for an expansion of additional specialist learning provision sorry specialist provision to meet the increasing demand and supports the implementation of phase one
262. 01:50:43 So I look for a mover for that recommendation. Councillor Bibby, seconder. Councillor Preece, all those in favour? Let's check the second page. Thank you. All those against? Can't see anybody. Any abstentions? No, that's carried. Thank you all. Thank you, Jeanette.
263. 01:51:11 I'm conscious that we are nearly at two hours and I know quite a few counsellors said that they would have to leave at four o'clock anyway. So I'm wondering if now might be a good time to call a 10 minute comfort break so people can get a refreshment or use the toilet. And then we'll come back at five past four. And then obviously those people who need to leave at four o'clock can leave then. So is that OK with everybody? OK, so I'll see you all back on the Zoom.