Education, Youth and Culture OSC - 17.07.26

AI-generated transcript — it may contain errors; the recording is the authoritative record.

1. 00:00:02 No, we aren't yet. Dorada, good morning, Croeso. A very warm welcome, warm welcome to the last Education, Youth and Culture Overview and Scrutiny Committee until the autumn. And I hope it's not too warm.
2. 00:00:19 I am concerned about the heat as somebody, like some of you present, who will remember the drought of 1976. Not all people here present will remember the drought of 1976. My very first risk assessment as a National Union of Students rep in 1976 was assessing the sitting of examinations in the heat, which resulted in the provision of fans. If anybody is uncomfortable and does need the windows open, do let me know.
3. 00:00:48 Please raise your hand and let us know. If you feel that you do need to withdraw somewhere cooler and join the meeting online, please let me know. And I've just made an executive decision that I'm relaxing the dress code this morning. So please take note that the dress code is relaxed this morning. Although, oddly enough, I myself do not feel heat at all.
4. 00:01:14 being descended as my nephews constantly inform me from the lizard people. This is not a compliment incidentally. We will of course be taking regular hydration breaks as they now appear to be known but we will not be playing football. Welcome to all officers and members in the room and online.
5. 00:01:36 Welcome to all our co-opted members. And I have with me in the room, assisting me, Kerry Shotton of Democratic Services. I am Gina Madison, the vice chair of this committee. And at this point, on behalf of all of us present, I'm sure that we all wish to send our very best wishes to our chair, Councillor Theresa Carberry. Keeping her in our thoughts, also Ian.
6. 00:02:06 Imogen, Theresa's father and her beloved pet dogs. Welcome today to Councillor David Vernon, who will be replacing Councillor Ian Hodge. Welcome, Councillor Vernon. And we thank Councillor Hodge for his devoted service on this committee. Welcome also on screen to Councillor Alan Marshall, who is replacing Councillor Jason Shawcross. Welcome, Councillor Marshall.
7. 00:02:39 And I particularly wish to thank for their attendance today, the Officers of Education and Youth, who've just undergone a gruelling Estyn inspection. And we wish you the very best of luck with the results for those. All chairs differ. I may be the vice chair of this committee, but my preference, as you know, is for a relaxed, efficient, civil and courteous meeting, and one that's a lesson in civil democracy.
8. 00:03:08 for any children or young people who might be watching. I do ask that participants leave their cameras on at all times, particularly if they remain with us for part two. We have all read all of the papers, so in lieu of quotations, can I please ask you to give page and line references instead?
9. 00:03:32 I will hear all members who wish to speak, but in view of the excessive heat today, I will only hear members and substitutions. I am not taking any questions from non-committee members today. They may, however, submit them via a member of the committee.
10. 00:03:51 I do also prefer, as I've said before, that all questions are submitted one at a time. This is a great help to officers, but also to all of those of us whose memory is not now as it was once. A gentle reminder, as this is scrutiny, that we are submitting questions and commenting and noting, and the commentary should lead to a question which is addressed to the chair.
11. 00:04:19 We're not making any party political broadcasts, and this includes me. I will close down any political statements. Can we also please have one meeting with one conversation? Again, this is because I, and I suspect some other members, have difficulty in hearing if several conversations are going on at once. Therefore, can I respectfully request no calling across the room, no private conversations and no interruptions.
12. 00:04:49 And I will, as I've said on previous occasions, close down any conversations that touches upon the personal and professional qualities of any officer or member present for GDPR and for other reasons as well. We're here today to discuss the agenda alone. Any other topics that are raised, I will refer to the appropriate meeting as on the forward word.
13. 00:05:15 Work Programme. In making all of these operational decisions, I have consulted Democratic Services and the Chief Officer for Government. At which point, having got that over, I welcome you all again and return to the agenda. So, agenda item one. Apologies. Do we have apologies, Kerry? Thank you, Chair. We have two substitutions today. Councillor Sean Bibby is substituting for Councillor Theresa Carberry.
14. 00:05:44 and Councillor Andrew Parker is the substituting for Councillor Andy Hughes. Thanks, Kerry. Item number two, declarations of interest, including whipping declarations. Does any councillor wish to declare a personal or prejudicial interest in any items on the agenda, including part two items? Councillor Lister. Declare a personal interest in... Sorry, I've not got the agenda items.
15. 00:06:12 The last one. I think it's agenda item nine, please, as a previous employee of High School. I'll also declare a personal interest. The council plan talks about Welsh language education and my children are in that. Thank you, Councillor Lester, noted. Councillor Ryan. Thank you, Chair. Item nine. I am a member of the IEB at St David's High School. So I have just a personal interest because that.
16. 00:06:41 IAB has been appointed by the local authority, which has also reminded me I need to update my register of interest as well, which I will do at the end of this meeting. All right, thank you. Sorry, Lisa Allen online. Oh, Lisa, Lisa Allen, co-opting member online. Yeah, just on agenda item eight, I just wanted to declare a personal interest as I'm a very close family friend with the vice chair of governors for one of the Catholic schools in Flintshire.
17. 00:07:12 Thank you very much. Thank you for that. Sorry, Wendy White. Wendy White. Wendy White. Thank you. Just to declare a prejudicial interest in item number eight as the Director of Education for Wrexham Diocese. Thank you. Yes, thank you, Wendy. Thank you very much for that. Any further declarations? No other members are indicating check. All right. Thank you.
18. 00:07:37 Four, urgent matters as agreed by the Chair. I have received none. I don't know if you've received any on behalf of Councillor Carberry. Sorry, we missed item three. Minutes, yes, sorry, minutes, running ahead of myself. Minutes, if we can turn to the minutes on pages five to eight. We're taking these for accuracy only. Committee meeting, 18th of June, 2026, page five. Page five, page six.
19. 00:08:15 Page seven. Can I have a mover for the minutes then, please? Councillor Chris, thank you. Seconder. Thank you. All those in favour? Unanimous check. Unanimous. Thank you very much. Good. It just gets better and better.
20. 00:08:42 Number four, urgent matters as agreed by the Chair. I have received none. Have you received any on behalf of Councillor Carberry? No, right. Number five, forward work programme and action tracking. Pages 924. At this point, I will pass over with relief to Kerry Shortman. Thank you, Chair. Members will see the current forward work programme shown on page 13 of the agenda.
21. 00:09:08 with the next meeting of the committee scheduled for the 24th of September. You will see there that there are quite a lot of items listed for September. So those items are currently being reviewed to look at whether some of them can be moved around. So we will update committee on what items being.
22. 00:09:30 but forward to September ahead of the meeting. Just to point out that holiday hunger was due to be on the event of today's meeting. We were asked to move that back to September. But I have met with the service manager who has confirmed that she will be contacting all members to inform them of the...
23. 00:09:53 proposals over the summer and what will be in place in terms of children who receive free school meals. And then the report that comes to the committee in September will also include information on what was done over the summer. But members should receive some correspondence from the service manager. Moving on to the action tracking document shown at Pendleton 2 on page 21.
24. 00:10:23 um the um i won't run through all of these um but just to confirm that um we have a number of head teachers um who will be attending at 1pm and before the committee meeting on the 24th of september to discuss um the now with service um we
25. 00:10:43 have arranged the all-member briefing on the school organizational code for the 3rd of September and an email will be going out shortly to all members with information on that and there was a request from Councillor Hodge on school parking following a question that was raised at council on the 1st of July an item will be presented to scrutiny in December
26. 00:11:10 updating on all the work that's been done on school park and following the recommendations of the task and finish week thank you chair questions um right uh questions on the forward work program and action tracking my question was in fact on holiday hunger but that's now been answered so any other questions anything online oh nobody's indicating check no questions
27. 00:11:37 um in that case can uh if we can go back to the recommendations on page nine we have three recommendations which i think i'll take together um page nine can i have a mover for the recommendations anybody wish to move the recommendations councillor crease thank you anybody wish to second the recommendations
28. 00:12:06 Councillor Dave Healy, thank you very much. All those in favour? That's Carrie Chair. Unanimous, was it? Item number six, belonging strategy, pages 25 to 30. And this will be presented by the Chief Officer. Oh, no, sorry. It will be presented by Jeanette Rock. Sorry, I haven't just found the right page myself. Thank you very much.
29. 00:12:43 Thank you, Chair. Really, this report has provided an update to the committee of where we are with the belonging strategy. We presented a paper last year saying that this was something that we developed and the basis of it is to support improved engagement across our schools and to support that belonging sense within their local communities of children, of families, but also of staff within the schools themselves. So I'm going to provide an update, Chair, in terms of where we've got with that.
30. 00:13:12 So following the last presentation to the committee, we set up a steering group to drive and move the strategy forward. And it was quite interesting, the first meeting where the people were put together comprised of headteachers.
31. 00:13:29 primary, secondary headteachers from the specialist sector and a range of officers. So not just from the education portfolio, we brought in the parenting representative from social services as well. So we've got a broad spectrum of officers. And I think one of the first comments we had from a headteacher was, yes, it's a very nice strategy. However, it's a weighted document and it will sit on a shelf and not achieve anything. And so we took the decision then to actually develop a charter.
32. 00:13:57 And so what you've got attached to the document is the charter that was developed through that process. And so we went through a series of meetings and we did actually bring in an external facilitator to do that work with us, which was really, really helpful because the vision and everything that we developed as part of the initial strategy, they pulled apart.
33. 00:14:17 with us and said you know that really isn't a vision it's not you know the aims and the guiding principles were not what they should be and so there was a real um engagement process there to to think about what those words meant
34. 00:14:32 so that they would have value, they would have currency for not only us as adults who were implementing the charter, but also for young people. So a lot of work was done alongside this with Young Flincher, with schools, talking to their young people as well. And so what you've got before you at the moment is the final iteration of that charter.
35. 00:14:54 And we launched that with our head teachers in a conference on June the 5th. And that was really well received. As part of that presentation, we had head teachers.
36. 00:15:05 presenting that charter to their peers because we felt we didn't want it to be seen as a local authority document it was a co-constructed document and we wanted head teachers to share those key messages that had come from the process and the value of the document themselves so they were able to say how they've been using the document so far within their schools and the positive response they'd had
37. 00:15:29 We had videos of children and young people describing what belonging meant for them. We also had videos of members of staff and parents saying how important it was for them to feel that they felt that they belonged to their school communities. And I think those presentations were really powerful.
38. 00:15:50 with headteachers and so made them see really that there's value in having documents such as this. So whilst it may look quite simple in terms of the document itself, we see that as being a poster that can be shared in the council buildings, you know, it's owned by us, but across schools as well. And those, the images at the top and the bottom of it, we're working with design and print so that they can be, schools can put their own images in.
39. 00:16:17 to show that their you know their staff their children key spaces for themselves so it's personalized but it's got that key message for all of us across splinter as a as a learning community
40. 00:16:29 As part of that conference, we asked headteachers to identify what their core priorities would be for us to focus on to secure and improve belonging. And in the report, we've identified what they were and unanimously they came out as parents. So support for parents to ensure that children were school ready.
41. 00:16:51 support parents to ensure that they were able to engage in their education and also you know one of the challenges that i think we do have across our schools particularly in the secondary sector is mid-year transfers and those parents having faith in the school and being able to engage with that school and enable their child to retain their place in that community school as it is and so
42. 00:17:11 That was the highest priority that came out. Then the next one was about staff development to enable staff to do their role well, for staff to feel supported, for them to be able to put their efforts appropriately into educating our learners. And then ALN came under that. I think it's appropriate to say that the fourth one was finance, but we'd ask them not to focus on finance, but to actually look at what we can do to make things better. So in terms of moving the strategy forward.
43. 00:17:39 We had the draft strategy. We're revisiting that now, given that we've developed the charter and that's been launched. As part of that strategy document, we're looking to have...
44. 00:17:50 an action plan that will sit alongside that will clearly identify roles and responsibilities of all so as us as council officers but also as schools and I think what was heartening in the conference and in subsequent meetings we're hearing that head teachers are including it in their school improvement plans they're having it as a priority and that was an important element that came out of the conversation to say that this needs to be shared by all so that we can
45. 00:18:17 identify appropriate resources at school level, but also then at local authority level to ensure that we make progress on this. Another key aspect of the work is to highlight good practice because there's very good practice already happening in many of our schools that support belonging.
46. 00:18:35 And having the opportunity to share that with colleagues was really useful. In the first conference where we talked about belonging, there was an idea of teenagers and toddlers. And a number of schools have adopted that where some of the pupils from secondary schools go and support the younger pupils in their local primary schools, which has served to be so beneficial to many of them. So if I stop there, Chair, I know if you've got any questions.
47. 00:19:03 Thank you very much for that, Jeanette. So I'll take questions now. I have Councillor Priest first, Carolyn. I do have Councillor Mackey. I was just going to say that Councillor Mackey was before me. Are you all right? Thank you very much. As always, Jeanette, thank you for this report. I welcome this development and the fact that we had it the full time.
48. 00:19:37 loan report. The charter part of it that you've now launched, it's so new and everything that we need really to be able to review that in more detail going forward. So I'd like it to be added to the forward working plan that somewhere in there that we can review it. It's good that we're looking at the effects of COVID. And, you know, we are six years down the road now. And the impact of that is still significant.
49. 00:20:08 And I think this is the best way to go forward to support the community, et cetera, in developing these strategies to support them to change the attitude. You know what I mean, don't you? Yeah. I think we need to be looking at when we target and everything and when you bring your review is the impact of it.
50. 00:20:32 I think that's the end that we really need to be looking at, is what changes and what development this charter has put into place. Because I think it could be quite significant to the point where I was going to ask the question, is it possible that it isn't just an option that schools are actually asked to put it into their individual development plans?
51. 00:20:57 Because I think the significance of this is so important, and the knock-on effect from this can be so dramatic and felt by all, and they'd be able to see an awful lot of change if it was put as almost like a mandatory element. So that would be my question. Could it be made mandatory, and can we put it on the forward working plan for the review to come? Thank you, Chair.
52. 00:21:22 Karen, please. Would you like to take that? Claire, would you like the Chief Officer to take that? First of all, can I just pay tributes to Jeanette and the colleagues who've been involved in this process? We appreciate that it's a piece of work that you've taken quite some time with.
53. 00:21:42 but that was quite deliberate because it was really important that we had the opportunity to really work with our head teacher colleagues and really get under the skin of this issue as you say rather than as officers just sitting in a room writing a strategy and then actually nobody paid any attention to it whatsoever so i think the time that we have spent engaging with our with our schools you know with our young people their messages have been really really powerful
54. 00:22:07 You know, I think that was time well invested. But you're absolutely right now, Councillor Priest, what we need to do now is get this embedded across all of our schools and then be able to start monitoring the impact of it. So in terms of your question, can we make it mandatory? Well, I'm not sure that we can because obviously schools are responsible for their own school improvement priorities. However, we had...
55. 00:22:29 commitment from every head teacher in the room in the conference because I did basically ask the question you know is everybody going to support this and the response very much was yes we we will whether
56. 00:22:41 If it's something the committee feels very powerfully about, I know in the past the committee have written to all schools asking for their support for particular strategies, whether that's something the committee would want to consider. And we could send a letter out in September saying, you know, that the Education and Youth Security Committee is really supportive of this proposal, this strategy, and are actively encouraging all schools, you know, to adopt it and include it. Then I'm sure that would be well received in that way rather than us.
57. 00:23:10 dictating which i don't believe from a statutory perspective i can do so that might be a suggestion councillor priest you know for the committee to be seen to be really endorsing this as a as a way of us moving forward as a as a as a local authority and supporting our children and young people chair can i propose that then that can we have a seconder for uh councillor craze thank you all those in favor oops
58. 00:23:42 Oh, right. Sorry, sorry. We need to finish the list of speakers first. We'll come back to that. Councillor Mackey. Thank you, Chair. I'd like to concentrate on paragraph 101, the top of page 26. Children not being school ready on entry to primary school. At Social and Health yesterday, I raised the issue.
59. 00:24:22 that children are not ready. Some children are not ready for primary school. And I raised it at Social and Health because it's a pre-education issue. I can't see how education can actually put that problem right. I'm hearing that we have lots of issues with young children at the moment.
60. 00:24:51 I've personally seen issues of a child who hits anybody, grown-ups, other children, hurts himself, runners who you can't catch once they set off and they're out and they're running down the road before you know it. One that was new to me, those that just drop and apparently the school can't get any advice about how to lift them up.
61. 00:25:24 Just drop and stay there. Won't get up. What happens if you take that child on a school trip and in the middle of the village they drop and stay there? And when they do it in school, you have to put a little fence around them so that other children don't walk on them. And then we've got the nonverbal children. And this is becoming an issue. There's no doubt about it.
62. 00:25:59 It's not really relevant to what we're talking about here, but because of those words, I felt I could raise it. It really is something that we have to get on top of, that unfortunately it seems, and I'm going to be careful what I say here, that schools are being expected to address these sorts of issues and these problems, and clearly...
63. 00:26:28 It's very, very, very difficult. If, for instance, a child hits another child, the school has to exclude. Otherwise, the parent of the victim child wants to know what the school did as a result of it. And I don't think we should be excluding children at entry age level. So I've gone outside the agenda item, but mainly just to tell you that I raised this.
64. 00:27:00 Yesterday, because I'm convinced that this is a very serious problem that parents are expecting schools to take on roles that they simply are not equipped for. And I really feel that this is an area that we should be, well, if not working on ourselves, asking the health and social services if they can work with parents.
65. 00:27:31 to encourage a better understanding of their responsibilities. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Mackey. Did you have a question? I understand what you mean. You're asking how the belonging strategy will actually have an effect on this type of behaviour, which, in fact, I have myself witnessed. I have myself witnessed. Does anybody wish to respond? Jeanette. Jeanette, thank you. Thank you, Chair.
66. 00:28:00 Your points, Councillor Mackie, are valuable and certainly heard. If I could just say some of the things that we are doing to try and support and improve what you're...
67. 00:28:11 referring to so we've actually got a primary head teacher ALN steering group which has six head teachers on it and we meet regularly to identify the challenges that they're experiencing they're linked to the primary head teacher federation and so the messages come through the federation come through the group and we're meeting half-termly to address particular issues and one of the things that had come up was about the engagement with health and about the information that comes into school on entry about learners
68. 00:28:40 particularly those perhaps with ALN, where information is not always made readily available to the school. We've got our early entitlement team who work very closely with parents and they're proactively working with parents and say, you need to share information. You need to share this ahead of your child going into school so that the school can be as ready as it can to support your child in that setting. We met with...
69. 00:29:09 the manager of school nurses of health visitors we met with the occupational therapist lead and the physiotherapist lead in last term actually with the head teachers and they all felt that that both both sides actually felt that had been a really useful meeting to talk about reports the information that comes in because you can imagine as well for a school that's got a child who
70. 00:29:32 has a number of challenges, a number of difficulties. They're getting reports perhaps from the educational psychologist, from the OT, from the physio. And they're saying these reports can be quite weighty. And so for a school then to synthesise that into a programme of intervention for that child can be difficult. So we've looked at how those can be streamlined to the most salient points. So the school's got that key information that they know to work on. But also there was an undertaking from the manager of the health.
71. 00:29:59 visitor service and the school nurses to look at how information could be shared ahead of um going into school so that they at least have some information that's um pertinent at that point you talked about non-verbal and as a county we have really promoted talk boost training so
72. 00:30:20 Of our 64 schools, I think we've got 62 that have accessed training on TalkBoost, which is a language development programme that schools put in themselves that they support around learners. So staff are skilled up in how to develop language because it has to be in situ, doesn't it? It has to be part of the learning.
73. 00:30:42 offered training that training is ongoing and another thing that we put in place in last summer and is being delivered again in this summer is talk with me which is a welsh government initiative and that is about parents understanding of developing language for their children and how to do that in a proactive way so again that those skills are being developed before they they come into school
74. 00:31:06 I mean, a lot of this and a lot of work through the belonging strategy is about relationships and we all know.
75. 00:31:13 the you know the positive impact on relationships and yes we appreciate that it it can be challenging in schools in terms of presentations where there are positive relationships and those incidents of escalation can be de-escalated we've put training in place through Plastead when crew around um that how to de-escalate a situation so that it doesn't get to to that point where um a learner um
76. 00:31:40 where an exclusion is being applied because like you Councillor Mackie you know we are very keen to reduce the incidents that happen in our schools that lead to headteachers feeling that an exclusion is warranted. Myself and our principal education psychologist we sit on the authority parenting group and that has representatives from health, it has social care, it has a number of
77. 00:32:06 portfolio representatives from the education youth portfolio to look at what strategies are needed to support parents and that there are a range of training programs going on we know that being toilet trained you know on entry into school is a challenge and so the the team there are they can put training on for parents where they know that there's an issue so if schools are flagging that as a potential concern in a particular area then that training can be allocated to that so just to provide
78. 00:32:35 some reassurance that we recognise the comments and the points that you're making, but we are trying to work to address those as well. Thank you, Jeanette. I think Claire wants to speak on this. Thank you very much, Jeanette. Can I pass over to the Chief Officer? So just to perhaps...
79. 00:32:58 pick up on what Jeanette's saying now and give you some assurance about what's happening at a national and a strategic level on this. I have in front of me a draft letter to the Chief Medical Officer from the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education in Wales. So the Chief Medical Officer has produced their annual report for 2026, which identifies obviously, you know, a range of issues, but particularly what the response from WLGA and AJU.
80. 00:33:29 You are describing, Councillor Mackie, the range of issues that schools are having to manage because of the increasing complexity around the presentation, particularly of some of our younger children. I will check the status of this letter and I would be more than happy once it has been sent to the Chief Medical Officer to actually circulate this response to the committee because I think it would provide you with a really, really helpful overview. But basically, you know, what...
81. 00:33:58 the WLJ and NADU are seeking to reinforce to the Chief Medical Officer is that schools are facing several.
82. 00:34:06 interconnected pressures really in terms of you know supporting children and young people and many of the things that we've talked about today and in previous meetings so for example you know the rising complexity of need around mental health neurodiverse learners and you know on their presentation the range of demand around additional learning needs the increasingly complex physical
83. 00:34:29 health care needs that schools are having to manage, not just in our specialist settings, but increasingly in our mainstream schools as well. The impact of persistent child poverty and the pressures that that places on families, you know, homelessness, you know, housing insecurity, you know, the demand for specialist assessments. And we know that, you know,
84. 00:34:51 the waiting lists for receiving those, you know, specialist interventions, you know, are lengthy. They recognise, you know, the workforce capacity pressures, both within schools and in health and social care, you know, and the sustained financial pressures right across the system. So, again, you know, I think the WLGA and the directors group are being really proactive in trying to make sure that these issues are very much at the forefront of the new administration's agenda. Now, we know that obviously...
85. 00:35:19 the Plaid administration have made a significant commitment to expand childcare provision. You know, that was very clear in their manifesto. That's something they have moved very quickly on during their first 100 days. So we know that quality childcare, quality early years provision, you know, has a significant positive mitigating effect, you know, on the risk factors that we're describing here in terms of children's development.
86. 00:35:46 Hopefully the benefits of that will be felt as that programme has expanded. We recognise there are risks around that in terms of the availability of the workforce and the level of quality assurance within that model as well to make sure that trained experts, such as the advisory teachers in the Flying Start team and the Early Entitlement team, they are maintained as part of that expansion because it is really important that the quality is there. So I just wanted to share that because that's very much hot off the press. That's landed in my inbox within the last couple of days.
87. 00:36:15 I'm more than happy to circulate that once I've had confirmation from WLGA that it has been sent to the Chief Medical Officer. Thank you very much. I'm sure that's something that all of us will be very interested in seeing. Councillor David Healy. Thank you, Chair. Along with other councillors here, I've in the past expressed my support for the belonging strategy because I think it's something that
88. 00:36:49 has the potential to make a difference and to help with dealing with some of the complex issues that the Chief Officer has just outlined. And some of these do stem from the aftermath of the pandemic, but not all of the issues that the Chief Officer mentioned are related to that. So I endorse what other councillors in this meeting
89. 00:37:18 what other members have said. I'm just, I'm wondering what it, I can understand if there was a degree of scepticism on the part of heads who said, how are we going to ensure that this doesn't just remain on the shelf? So you've come up with the charter, but I'm still struggling to wonder if I were a teacher.
90. 00:37:48 within Flincher as I used to be, then what in practical terms do I do? What does it mean to me? Now, clearly it's not a curriculum issue. It's not something that I think we're going to suggest should be embedded in the curriculum as such because everyone says school should be teaching this, that, the other, and you can't fit a quote into a fine pot.
91. 00:38:18 but it is to do with the ethos of the school and the organisational culture. And presumably one of the things is that there's going to have to be an element of staff training to ensure that everyone within a school and across the county is singing from the same hymn sheet and is there to embed the ethos and the way of working.
92. 00:38:49 which is supportive of children. Maybe schools will feel they're already doing that, and that's something in their mission statement. I don't know. The other thing I'm struggling with is, are we going to try and find a way of measuring what difference this makes, our success? Maybe that's too ambitious. You think of bringing students along to report back and say,
93. 00:39:22 what difference something made. But I don't think you can do this in this particular case. This is a long-term thing. And the fruits of the strategy, it strikes me, will only be seen after several years. In part, I think we've got to wait for the COVID generation to work its way through schools and hope that we get...
94. 00:39:50 indicators like improved attendance, better behavior, punctuality, improved exam results. I don't know if there are measures that are applicable. I'm struggling over the issue of whether we're going to measure our success, whether it's worth it, whether it's possible. I don't know. Those are just some of the issues.
95. 00:40:21 Thank you, Councillor Healy. Does anybody wish to respond to any of the points, Jeanette? I think you're spot on there, Councillor Healy, in terms of the ethos. I mean, what we're saying fundamentally is a cultural shift, isn't it? That everybody within Fincher, including ourselves as officers and staff in our schools, actually commits to this. And I think that was the beauty of having something quite short. And, you know, we will have the...
96. 00:40:50 we've got the draft document that sits underneath and as I say, we're going to revisit that, but this needs to be visible and needs to be seen. And one of our head teachers on the group was saying, so, you know, the guiding principles, we've got everyone belongs, acts in every child's best interest, everybody matters, being person-centred, respect everyone, stay curious, compassionate and flexible. And actually our plan is to have those on separate.
97. 00:41:14 pieces of paper, posters that are then posted around the room, around schools, around buildings, so that it's visible. It's something there. So if something's happening within a school, you can be minded that that's what we're all working to. So it isn't something that sits aside. It has to be visible. This is what our commitment is to everybody. It's our commitment to children and young people within our setting, but it's also our commitment to staff.
98. 00:41:40 And as part of the conference, we had a head teacher who spoke and launched it. And she was talking about having to exclude a child. And that felt very contrary to the belonging strategy. But she said, you know, this was my experience. This was me feeling conflicted about making an exclusion. However, what her reflections on that was, they needed to look more at what the reasons were that led up to that exclusion.
99. 00:42:10 but also to say that everyone is respected. And so something had happened in that experience that somebody wasn't respected through the actions of a child at that point. And so the head teacher took the decision that that exclusion was needed. But I think the important thing there was about the thinking then, what could we have done differently for that child, for that scenario that would have made a difference that wouldn't have led to that? So that's where she saw.
100. 00:42:39 all of these factors within the charter element coming in. So I think we recognise this is an overtime cultural shift.
101. 00:42:49 But you're right, and also Councillor Priest mentioned, what are the measurables from this? Well, you know that we look annually at attendance and exclusion data. Fundamentally, we are looking for our attendance levels, our engagement levels to include, because our learners feel that they are better engaged in their communities. We're looking for a reduction in those mid-year transfers so that they're not feeling that they have to move somewhere else. And, you know, you've worked in a secondary school, you know what that's like. There can be situations...
102. 00:43:18 situations where there's fallings out and somebody wants to move and so it's incumbent on us under this so this is almost like an umbrella strategy for us to then say well what are we doing about mid-year transfers how are we informing parents about what the impact that does to learners particularly we were talking um this week around the the changes in the curriculum offer at key stage four it's not called that now but you know in the years 10 and 11 and how complex that is now to move school and so
103. 00:43:46 It's not something you want to do. So how do we then work with those learners to keep them in the school? Looking at the success of managed moves where that's happening, looking at the number of children that are moving out of our schools into other ones. So there's a number of factors that we've identified that we are going to look at as measurables to show the impact of this. Fundamentally, though, we're looking for a cultural shift and we're looking for buy in and we're looking for that head teacher.
104. 00:44:12 buy-in to say well this is going to be a priority for us we're going to have it around our building we're going to be referencing it in our policies and processes so that it's live across all areas and i think that's how we we start to make that difference and we need staff to see that it has currency for them as well that we're not just talking about learners that there's something here about staff well-being the other measure that we have got is the shurn data so the secondary health
105. 00:44:40 is it secondary health research network school health research network so because it does go into primary as well now and our pre was just on the shirn data and part of that there is a question about how you feel connected to your school isn't it and whether you feel listened to by your teachers and so that's a two-year report but that again would give us some indicators about how much our children feel that they belong as part of their school so
106. 00:45:05 Hopefully that gives you some assurance that we are thinking about what those measures will be. Some of them will be longer term, but there are things that hopefully when we come back to present information, we'll be able to say some of the impact that we've had so far. Thank you, Jeanette. Did anybody else want to speak? Did you want to speak, Chief Officer? Thank you. No, Jeanette's very clearly articulated the areas where actually we do believe we will be able to.
107. 00:45:32 take some sort of measures. I mean, it's one of a range of strategies, isn't it? You know, we've done a lot of training around trauma-informed practice, for example. You know, the team teaching the de-escalation strategies. You know, it might be very difficult to say, you know, Y is an absolute result of X, but it is, you know, as Jeanette has articulated, there are a number of things where we would expect to see, over a period of time, a shift in some of those data sets in that positive reduction.
108. 00:45:59 in exclusions, you know, the increase in attendance, the SHERN data, again, particularly, and I think very importantly as well, pupil voice, you know, and how, you know, through the, you know, the work that we're doing with Young Plinshire, how schools have those conversations, you know, within their own settings and take that pupil feedback.
109. 00:46:17 Again, that young people are reflecting, that they feel that they are being heard, that they are being respected, they're being listened to. And fundamentally, what we want to see is our learners achieving the best possible outcomes. And if we know the conditions for learning are right.
110. 00:46:33 and teachers are really focused on that quality teaching every day, appropriately differentiated for the needs of their learners, then hopefully you'd see all that come together. But, you know, there are a number of measures, obviously, that we will be tracking and that will be in the action plan in terms of where we, you know, we'll be looking at making sure that we're tracking that data. But I think it was a really, really important question, Councillor Hayley. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you, Chief Officer. Councillor Fran Lister.
111. 00:47:09 Thank you, Jeanette, for bringing the report. It came last year and I was very impressed with it last year. I felt it was very intuitive as an educator. And I think last year we did actually mention, well, I mentioned staff training at the time. And now I can see that it's actually going to have to be the responsibility of the schools to embed that into their CPD programme through all their staff training. And it sounds like you've...
112. 00:47:34 starting to get that buy-in from the headteacher so I think that's a really positive step when I looked at the charter um and read the aims I thought gosh that's just like reading a personal specification for a job description to become a teacher um you know to build trusting relationships to nurture children to provide inspiring learning environments um you know to feel proud and have high expectations of yourself which then made me think should the charter then be used perhaps as a tool for good recruitment um and
113. 00:48:04 So it was just a suggestion really to see whether it could be used to be recruiting members of staff. Councillor Mackie raised about school readiness, which is obviously a big theme, and actually I sit on social and health as well. And the more I delve into this, the more I realise that investment in early years is going to have a huge long-term impact to education later on.
114. 00:48:34 Just with that in mind, with your steering group, is there any early year setting representatives on your steering group for the belonging strategy? And is that a possibility, particularly when we're talking about engaging with parents and families? And yeah, and I guess the last bit was fairly in line with Councillor Healy's suggestions. I really, really like this. I think, yeah, like I say, it's very intuitive to good education.
115. 00:49:05 What I'm worried about is headteachers saying, I don't think any of the headteachers would dispute this. Anyone would say, no, I don't want to achieve that in my school. I think the big question is, how are we going to do it under the constraints that we are under at the moment? And it is so pressured. I'm a governor at a school. I've had meetings with chairs of governors in my own ward. I speak to members of staff who work in schools.
116. 00:49:29 And it is just a very high pressured environment at the moment because of the resources that are allocated to schools and the pressures that they face. So just, you know, aside from this being embedded as a CPD element of the schools, what can the council do, really? How are you going to ensure that this is possible for everyone to achieve? Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Lister. Who'd like to respond? Is it you, Jeanette?
117. 00:49:57 I think it's a really helpful suggestion about recruitment, Councillor Lister, to be fair, and something that I hadn't thought about, but certainly will do now. The reference to early years, we don't have someone from early years on the steering, but we do have, as I say, the person from the parenting group. But Gail Bennett, who sits over sort of, I forget what Gail's title, so early years, isn't it, and parenting. We talked to her about this, and she's very keen to develop one.
118. 00:50:24 as well so whether they just adopt this or adapt it so that's a conversation that we've had previously so we would be looking to um to broaden it in terms of that so it covers that early years coming in um in terms of um gosh i've gone black now in terms of what it said about resources wasn't it really i think i yeah it is how and i think there are lots of things that are not um financially motivated here it is about attitudes it is about relationships
119. 00:50:54 You'll know yourself, isn't it? It's about that fresh start every time with a young person. And I think it takes time. And, you know, to be fair, headteachers and senior leaders have to drive that within their school, don't they? It has to be part of their culture. And I think where we've seen really positive responses from the headteachers on the steering group, and there has been, you know, they said, well, we're just doing it now. We're seeing it as being live and we're referencing it when someone hasn't applied to it. So there are things that don't have cost.
120. 00:51:23 there are things that do. And I think that's going to be a challenge, isn't it? That will be where schools, when they're looking at the breadth of the offer to enable their learners to be part of that, that's where the challenge will come. I don't know if anyone wants to. Sorry. Thank you, Councillor Lester. And that was at the heart of our discussions with our head teachers, actually 12 months ago, when we first launched this as a proposal, in a recognition...
121. 00:51:54 that there wasn't any more money in the system. Because there isn't, is there? We can all be realistic about that. And it was like, well, we could sit here and moan about the lack of resources until the cows come home. But actually, that's not going to get us anywhere.
122. 00:52:08 So it was like you can have five minutes to whinge about funding and then actually we need to think about how can we use our resources in a more effective way. And that's where we've made decisions about where we invest, for example, in supporting schools with particular CPD. That's why there has been a significant investment in the trauma-informed training approaches, the offer to schools to support them around the team teach, around that de-escalation. So it's about...
123. 00:52:34 How do we make smarter decisions about where we use the resource that we have? And again, in the conference a month ago, that's why we said, right, what are your priorities? Because where are we going to focus? And it's come through very clearly around the need to focus our resources on how we support parents as their child's first educators, you know, and this issue around managed moves and sort of mid-year transfers.
124. 00:52:59 you know we will be looking carefully at the resources we have within the portfolio and rather than sort of spreading that resource thinly across a number of areas it's about saying no that was the priority so that's where we're going to focus our resource to then obviously drive that forward and other things may have to wait but then but that's that's that's understood as a rationale so and of course we continue to press Welsh Government in terms of the
125. 00:53:24 decisions they're making currently around additional funding for pupils with learning needs. We know that's a very hot topic still at the moment, and we continue to try and drive in further resources into local authorities through our national engagement. So I hope that helps answer that question. Thank you, Councillor Lister. I think that the essence of a good school is those good relationships, exactly what you said. Those relationships take time.
126. 00:53:56 um time to build and they take time to nurture as well um with parents and with students i think as like a politically we need to be very clear that time is less than it ever used to be in schools um and when we are making decisions about budgets and delegated schools budgets we need to bear the belonging strategy in mind we need to bear in mind um yeah that actually
127. 00:54:25 not having time to build good relationships has very, very big consequences in terms of educational standards and in terms of the society that these children go out to be part of. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor List, for your thoughtful comments. Councillor Bill Crease. Thanks, Chair. First off, it's a hugely impressive piece of work. It's obviously taken a lot of time, resource, effort, goodwill to get to this point.
128. 00:54:57 I support everything every member has said in the process of getting to this point. I have some minor concerns, only because I've said this before in committee meetings, I'm data-driven. We need to review progress on this. My concern is, how do we construct a review that's meaningful and not attempting to grasp wisps of air? Council here is absolutely correct. There are so many elements where we could look at and say,
129. 00:55:25 is an outcome that we would seek. But there could be time, effort, involvement from school staff and from portfolio staff to take this forward. Ties on with what Councillor Lister said. It will cost money, even if it's just in resource officer time, teacher time. And we need to be mindful that we don't want to take away from the process that we all want to support, that we all want to develop.
130. 00:55:55 We need to review it. That's part of our job is scrutiny. We need to review how this process is going forward. But I guess I'm not looking for an answer, but as a committee member, I'd like to have some sort of stare on how I can review it. You know, what am I looking for? Yes, attendance. Yes, exclusions. Yes, internal exclusions. There are a whole host of elements of school life.
131. 00:56:23 that reflected in plastic data. Now, it'll be four or five, six years before any of this has any real impact on that. So the point at which I could get discernible data, which would help inform my view of scrutiny, is so far forward. We need to have some, I as a committee member, need to have some sort of guidance document. What am I looking for from this process that's taken a lot of officer time, taken a lot of staff time, all these outcomes as teachers?
132. 00:56:53 These are what we would hope would be happening in a normal course of events. But the reality is the school population that's going through the process at the moment is dramatically different. I mean, I finished teaching 12 years ago. I would not wish to be in the school environment now. I'm not entirely sure whether my temper would take it. But the staff we have across the school, the parents and the parents I meet, the vast, vast majority of parents, even if children who are presenting as being difficult.
133. 00:57:23 all have this at the core of what they want to see for the school, for their child. So surely some way we must be able to put it together. But as a scrutiny committee member, how am I going to be able to scrutinise this going forward? I need some measurable to say this effort is producing an outcome we're all happy with. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Chris. Jeanette, did you wish to respond?
134. 00:57:50 We've got, we will be having a steering group meeting early in the new academic year, and that's going to be the priority. So we've identified the areas that we want to look at. We'll be identifying what our expected roles and responsibilities are of schools, of ourselves, around moving this forward, but what those indicators of progress will be.
135. 00:58:13 assuming it goes on the forward work plan, when we come back to you, then we'll have those identified and be able to measure against them. I'm giving it a flavour of the things that I anticipate those to be. But we will be drawing that up collaboratively because, again, the schools are investing time and effort in it. And that's why it's really important to have had headteachers as part of the steering group. And I know there was an element of trepidation when we were launching this.
136. 00:58:40 you know because it was a bit like okay you know how are people going to take to this but i'll come back to the the videos of the um of the young people of the parents and of the um staff who were saying
137. 00:58:53 this really works for me, this is really important, you have to do that. And I think we've got to keep that momentum so that we get that buy-in and ensure that people are then able to deliver against those measurables, isn't it? Because I think we've got to be cognizant of what you've said there about time.
138. 00:59:11 within schools, you know, if it's onerous, if it's whatever it needs to be, it's part of what they're doing so that we can say, right, we're going to lift that data and that will be our evidence for this year. And that may change next year. I think it has to be a live process. So that's what we'd be looking for. So hopefully that gives you some assurance without saying specifically. I mean, we've given some examples, but we know that that's where we need to go with this. Chief Officer, you'd like to come in. Yeah, thank you, Jeanette. You know, I would have no objection that once we have...
139. 00:59:44 you know we're going to have our sort of action plan out there which will really clearly identify the activity, who's responsible, what the timescales are and what the success criteria would be. I would have no objection circulating that to this committee once that is done so that you can see where we've got to knowing that you know it's probably going to be you know at the end of the academic year really when we're going to come back and be able to report to you then on you know the impact over the year so you know I'm more than happy.
140. 01:00:08 more than happy to do that if that would help so that you can see and again i would you know we could invite comments feedback from members that would be really helpful because you know i think some of your questions today have been really insightful and you know and continue to help us shape this particular strategy so if that would be helpful i will make that offer chair and we can circulate that you know hopefully not too long into the autumn term because you know that's our that's our priority in september you know to take this forward thank you is that too is that acceptable to everybody
141. 01:00:40 I think it's, as a scrutiny committee member, to have a document that I can scrutinise against makes the process much more effective and valid, I think. Thank you. I would appreciate it, sir. Thank you. Noted, noted. Online, our co-optive member, Lisa Allen. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I think this is a hugely, hugely positive strategy.
142. 01:01:08 You know, if we get belonging right, then attendance should improve. The relationships between parents and the school should improve. Learner wellbeing, staff wellbeing, the retention of staff should all improve. I think the risk with a strategy like this is that it does become, there's a risk of it becoming just one more initiative with a little bit of an eye roll. I think when a strategy like this, that is hard to quantify.
143. 01:01:36 and becomes embedded with existing budget lines within the pressures that we know exist within all schools at the moment. The one thing that we need is sort of time to implement this properly, to develop those relationships, to build that trust that Councillor Lister was talking about. That's critical and crucial for a policy like this and for a strategy like this.
144. 01:02:00 With my previous head-on, when I was a sociology and social policy student, we did a lot of debating over quantifiable and qualitative data. With a strategy like this, and I completely agree with Councillor Crease in that we need that quantifiable stuff, that hard data that we can see, the attendance data, the exclusion data. We need all of that, absolutely. But what we also need is that qualitative stuff with this.
145. 01:02:28 This isn't the type of strategy where you get a full picture, the full context, just from that hard, raw data. What we need is the head teacher voice. We need those narratives. We need the narratives from parents about how this strategy and the learner voice. Well, let's not forget them. They are the most important part of strategies like this. We need that qualitative stuff. We need those narratives from them to go with that data. So I suppose my...
146. 01:02:54 plea rather than a question is can we have a the balance of both within those within those reports and within those data sets that we do get the outcome thank you very much lise that's an excellent point who'd like to take that you jeanette and take that chair and say yes claire yeah didn't want to say no i i think um
147. 01:03:20 Mrs R makes an absolutely valid point. And as I referenced earlier, capturing the voice of our young people, of parents and of staff is an absolutely critical part of the broader information landscape around how we measure the impact of this strategy. And I'm not sure that we've circulated the video that we used in our conference. Perhaps we could circulate that to members.
148. 01:03:43 for you to see and for you to hear. So we'll put that as an action as well, if we may, Chair, and we'll get that circulated to you as soon as possible. Yes, certainly. If we can have that as an action then, Kerry. So thank you very much. Councillor Dave Vernon, your maiden speech on this committee. Welcome. Thank you, Chair. I just think it's unwise to discuss things that, in a mandatory sense, with something that's untried and untested. I think that was
149. 01:04:14 be a very unwise thing to do there are obviously cost implications that go with this as have been raised on budgets that are already stretched to an all-time high staff time would also be required for any training purposes and the results as we've seen may well take quite a number of years before we see any positives from this so i think realistically if you're talking about
150. 01:04:42 adopting an unproven philosophy on the schools. It would be wise to do something like a pilot program in one school instead of putting this onto everybody all at once. I think you're going to get mixed results from that where you can concentrate on a particular institution and look at how that performs and how fast that progresses and look at the statistics for one case before we even talk about looking at spreading that to...
151. 01:05:11 every school has a mandatory requirement. Thank you, Councillor Vernon. Does anybody wish to respond, Chief Officer? Thank you, Councillor Vernon, for your observations. I think we could assure you, actually, that through the last 12 months when we've been working with the steering group, actually, a number of the headteachers who have been on that steering group...
152. 01:05:30 have effectively been piloting it in their schools and their feedback has been incredibly positive. So I think actually we have done that piece of work and I think that's why we feel, and having worked with our head teachers now over the last 12 months, that we are actually ready to encourage all of our schools to adopt this and their response to that has been hugely positive. So just to give you that assurance, we have effectively done some piloting over the last year. Oh, Jeanette, did you want to come in?
153. 01:06:06 It is, and then it's gone from my head, so I didn't know what I was going to say. No, we have done... Oh, sorry. When we had the conference last year...
154. 01:06:17 We were talking about the challenges that schools are facing now and a number of factors that we've referenced have already come through. And I think what was really powerful in the conference this time was headteachers who had been part of our steering group, who effectively had done the piloting work, were almost, well, they were saying back to their colleagues, we have asked for support.
155. 01:06:38 and this is what's come back and i think something that had come from our schools was that ask about a shared narrative to have that shared message that they could all um refer to because i think sometimes schools feel that they're being pitted against each other that parents are making judgments about schools and having this simple format of a document at this stage they can all say well we're following the flinch of belonging strategy
156. 01:07:04 we are applying this and i appreciate what you're saying that that will be at differing levels in schools at different times and it will be incumbent on us you know through all of our services excuse me across the the um the portfolio to support schools to embed that but there was an ask from them that they felt having something concrete and tangible that they could refer to would support them in their work so hopefully this will provide something for that but we take your point about um how it will be implemented
157. 01:07:35 Thank you. Thank you, Jeanette. And nobody else wishes to speak. I have no other speakers. I do have a question myself, which doesn't necessarily have to be answered today. And I've listened very carefully to what's being said.
158. 01:07:50 I want to pick up on Councillor Priest's excellent point that we are now dealing with the COVID generation. Yes, it is six months on, but as a daughter, a mother, an aunt, a foster carer and a school, I think I've said at this committee before that in the 1960s, I used to observe my parents jump.
159. 01:08:12 whenever they heard a loud noise like a car backfiring or something being dropped. And they later explained to me and my sister that it reminded them of bombs dropping during the war. And that is 20 years after the end of the war and my parents are still jumping when they hear a loud noise.
160. 01:08:30 And at this point, if anybody's interested, I'll refer you to a programme called Children of the Blitz on BBC2 iPlayer, in which people in their 90s, one is over 100, are interviewed about the lifelong trauma that they suffered from being bombed during World War II. There are people talking about, I stopped speaking, I lost my mother, I lost my sister.
161. 01:08:56 Because of that, I just absolutely, totally understand. The loss of my grandfather in 1942 was something that my family never really recovered from, although they did continue to function as a family.
162. 01:09:12 So I did actually want to flag that up. I don't think that we can say to the children, move on, get over it, get on with your lives and that sort of thing. I'm totally aware that you can continue to function as a family and so forth. My question was really to do with...
163. 01:09:31 Parental care, wraparound care, because as a foster carer, I'm aware that it's not always the parents who are responsible for the raising of children. And we do know grandparents who raise children. We know uncles and aunts who raise children. We know foster carers who raise children as well. I assume that we will be involving all of these groups in the belonging strategy.
164. 01:10:01 Will we promote it to them? That's my question, really. Thank you. It doesn't necessarily need to be answered today. Sorry, I know it's complex. All things always are complex. Again, it's a very good observation, Chair. I think, you know, again, what we have to recognise is that our schools know their communities best of all.
165. 01:10:25 They know their families. They will know perhaps which children are being fostered, which children perhaps, you know, are having, you know, greater family care from wider members. So it's how I think the schools then promote it through their engagement with their families, through the offers that they make. You know, many of our schools have family engagement programmes, family learning programmes. You know, they have officers that sort of engage out in the community. So I would suggest it would be through those mechanisms.
166. 01:10:55 you know, schools will need to be spreading the message far and wide.
167. 01:11:01 That was a complex question. So I didn't necessarily expect it to be answered today. I mean, families are complex, are they not? So I have no other speaker. So if we can return to page 25, we had one recommendation, but we have an excellent suggestion from Councillor Priest, which Kerry, I think Kerry's done some wording for. Yes. So there's the recommendation in the report and then an additional recommendation, which has been moved and seconded.
168. 01:11:30 is that a letter be written to all schools to outline the committee's support of the belonging strategy and that the committee would actively encourage all schools to adopt the strategy and include it in their individual development plans. Thank you. This has been moved and seconded. All those in favour? All those against? Anybody against? Anybody abstaining?
169. 01:11:57 That's carried, Chair. Right, that is carried. Thank you very much for that. That was an absolutely brilliant discussion and very thought-provoking. So, thank you. Chair, Jeanette Neesley for another meeting, if committee are happy for her to depart at this point. Oh, yes, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Jeanette, for your contribution. That was an excellent discussion. Thank you. Right, so if we can move back to the agenda, we have...
170. 01:12:23 Item number seven, Council Plan End of Year Performance Report, pages 31 to 66. And this is to be presented by the Chief Officer for Education and Youth. And obviously, it is very lengthy. Some of us will have encountered this already at other committees. So we will be focusing here on education, youth and culture. But I mean, we are, of course, all of us aware that there is an overlap.
171. 01:12:52 with other departments such as social services and housing and so forth so but if we can actually focus on education youth and culture thank you chief
172. 01:13:03 Yeah, DL Cadeo, I don't intend to spend too long. As you say, it's a report structure that you are very familiar with. Obviously, we are bringing the education and youth elements of the council plan in front of you today. Obviously, the new model of highlighting areas of performance and areas for further development. So when I look at the report, obviously, we have the various RAG ratings in section 105 of the report.
173. 01:13:30 portfolios particular focuses are enabling successful learning and achievements creating inspiring innovative and inclusive learning environments supporting people to access employment and learning and of course we also make a contribution to the council-wide strategy on on addressing poverty
174. 01:13:48 So 106 in the report highlights under the people section of the council plan some of the major headlines in terms of the progress made by the portfolio over the last 12 months. Obviously, our main priority has been to embed the new school improvement service following the disbandment of the regional service. Another key priority has been the fully embedding of the young flintcher model, which you've obviously had reports.
175. 01:14:17 on during the year and the development of the belonging strategy you know those have been our big sort of three ticket items that we have focused on over the last year and you know as I say throughout the year you've had updates on those. Another major area that we have referenced here is the development of our actions under the Welsh education.
176. 01:14:37 You know, a statutory plan that the council has to report on to Welsh governments. So we have been in year three of the five-year action plan. And I think there are some positive highlights there worth noting, particularly the opening of our first new Welsh medium build.
177. 01:14:56 that's called Chrysati which has been extremely successful and I know many members I think have recently been to visit so an amazing facility and you know the positive impact that is having within the context of generally falling pupil numbers but having that positive impact in attracting parents to consider taking up the offer of large major education for their children so that's referenced there in the report. In terms of
178. 01:15:22 So the places section at 1.10 in the report, our focus on creating those inspiring, innovative and inclusive learning environments. And again, we've referenced the Croissati project there, but also the completion of the amazing campus at Munadissa. That's now been completed and handed over. And again, I know members have been to see that recently and have been wowed by the facilities there.
179. 01:15:47 We referenced, as we had a recent report again on the development of the lottery fund application for the development of the new archive building. So say we've reached a major milestone there. And then in 111, again, our contribution to the prosperity target around supporting access to employment and learning opportunities for us within the portfolio. That's very much focused on the work of the youth service in the.
180. 01:16:15 things that they are doing to develop their workforce. As you know, the ambition of the youth services to grow their own workforce successfully to make sure we have high quality people along that career pathway. And then actually the offer that they are making for young people in terms of access to other types of qualifications, informal qualifications, the Duke of Edinburgh Award, for example, is referenced there. So I'm more than happy to open that up.
181. 01:16:44 to questions chair because i'm you know i know members will have will have read the recourse okay thank you very much chief officer um according to page 32 we we are here to review and provide comments and observations on the on the council plan byc element so councillor bill crease thank you uh i typically want to talk about the opening paragraph from 106 uh i've
182. 01:17:16 I had an opportunity as a governor and a member of another group associated with education to assess how the new school improvement model has been implemented and to agree, have a look at its effectiveness. And I can only speak very positively about what I've seen. It's a narrow view, I accept. But I'm a governor in a school that would be considered to be fairly well run and doing a good job.
183. 01:17:43 And I sit on another group that's looking at a school which has difficulties. So we've got a school that's doing well, receiving school improvement support, and a school that might some colloquial discusses struggling, receiving school improvement support. Both elements, either end of the continuum of the scale, I would say are what we should be looking for. So it's not a question, it's a commendation from what I've seen, the narrow view I have of school improvement as it now exists after work, seems to be working very well.
184. 01:18:15 Thank you, Councillor Creece. Do we have any other speakers? Anybody online? Councillor Fran Lister. I have a quick question. Do you want me to ask my question separately, Gina? How many have you got? Three. Because they're all very different. Right, right. If you could take them in turn. Thank you. Thank you. On page 42 and 43, it talks about the open risks.
185. 01:18:45 And I'm just intrigued as to how those risks were identified. Because for me, there seems to be other, perhaps greater risks in achieving that objective. So I was just wondering, yeah, how those three were derived at. Chief officer, do you want to respond to that? So if we look at the first one, the demand for specialist provision, this committee knows very well that we have.
186. 01:19:17 seen a massive increase in the demand for appropriate provision for children with complex needs, learners who have a neurodiverse profile. And at the time when the council plan targets were written, we were in the stage of developing a new strategy, a new capital strategy in terms of how we would respond to that. And I think the challenge is if we do not meet...
187. 01:19:41 that rising demand then obviously first and foremost it is the learners that suffer if we are not making appropriate provision for them to meet their needs the risk to the local authority event is also increasing referrals to the tribunal the independent tribunal fortunately our referrals are relatively low as a local authority but again if we fail to meet that need then obviously those referrals
188. 01:20:05 to the tribunal will increase, that brings then obviously reputational risk to the authority as well. In terms of the Welsh education risk, that is a statutory duty on the council in terms of delivering those actions against the WESP targets and Welsh governments have set significant
189. 01:20:29 targets for local authorities to increase the number of learners accessing their education through the medium of Welsh. We know we've got a falling pupil demography anyway, so it's encouraging to see that, you know, the development of our engagement around the Welsh language and, you know, the delivery of our brand new school facility is really encouraging parents, perhaps not from a Welsh-speaking background, to consider that a Welsh medium education is appropriate for their learners.
190. 01:20:59 The ultimate sanction is that if Welsh Government do not perceive that the local authority is making sufficient progress around those targets, and they are very challenging targets for the local authority, then they will send in the regulator.
191. 01:21:13 to review that specifically. So that's why that was identified as a risk. And again, the risk around the sustainable learning communities, and I don't know whether Jenny would want to comment on this one as well. Obviously, the major risk around delivering our programme of school modernisation.
192. 01:21:32 is that, you know, sometimes there are factors as well beyond our control. So, as we know, we can draw down significant funding from Welsh Government, but then there also has to be a council contribution to that investment. We know there's been huge pressures around inflation within the construction sector, you know, and, you know, supply and availability of materials, which can sometimes delay projects and therefore increase cost.
193. 01:21:56 And as you know, there is also the challenge that we have a very small school modernisation team and our capacity to manage, you know, a number of projects simultaneously, you know, is quite limited. Jen, is there anything you would want to add to that if you don't think that perhaps I've captured that well enough? Thanks, Claire. I think just to note, we've got that risk score down to three because we've been managing the risks through our...
194. 01:22:24 program management and it was specifically around a particular project that it had gone into the corporate risk register but all the factors that Claire's mentioned are real and live and we're monitoring that as we move through the program so
195. 01:22:42 I mean, obviously the risk score around the specialist provision, you know, still is high, but Cabinet have recently approved that capital investment strategy. So we are starting to work through that phased programme. So hopefully over time, what we will see is that risk score come down. But obviously we do go through a process of regular review. So that was that captured at that point in time. This is my second question. Sorry, second question. Well, this is now an extra one, if that's OK, Tina. I was just wondering, like, I agree with what you've...
196. 01:23:13 that explanation um thank you i was just wondering why i'm getting to sound like a broken record but why um managing uh deficit budgets in schools doesn't feature as a risk under this because obviously the level of deficit will have an impact on successful learning and achievement so just wondered why it wasn't there really shall i go on or chief officer do you want to answer that the risk around um
197. 01:23:44 The risk around school budgets actually is clearly referenced in the education and youth portfolio and actually was escalated to the corporate risk register. So it's not that it isn't captured. It has already been captured. Thank you. A second question. Thank you. So moving on to that, the Welsh in education is where I declare my personal interest because we wear D-D-O-S, a disc and rye, give a plant. And as you can probably tell, Green Dusky can rye.
198. 01:24:13 I chose that for my children when I was on maternity leave. So if we want to increase sort of parental choice to Welsh medium education, the investment is definitely very early on. So TRV and mixing with parents who spent their older siblings went to Welsh medium education and perhaps they were like me, didn't speak Welsh at the home.
199. 01:24:39 made me absolutely believe that it was a positive choice for me and my family. Camryagina Taly ran there in the library. All of these initiatives that have actually diminished since COVID, and I don't place any blame there. Society has changed, people don't go out as much to groups, I think. But to sort of address this open risk.
200. 01:25:06 I think it's looking much earlier than just when you get to five and you're choosing schools for your children. And I will say to anybody who's contemplating it who, like me, doesn't speak Welsh at home, it is absolutely amazing. And I'm so proud of my children when I see them come home speaking Welsh. And I also know that every...
201. 01:25:30 minute they're at school, they're learning because they're learning a language constantly. So for me, that's a win-win. Two languages, two choices. And yeah, I'm very proud of it. So that was my comments about Welsh in education. I don't suppose it really needs a response, but go on. We're going to get one grabs on the list there. So as part of the structure that sits around the Welsh in education strategic plan.
202. 01:25:55 we have the Welsh Strategic Plan Forum, which is chaired by the cabinet member. And within that, we have representatives of a variety of groups, including Prague, the parent group, including Madiad Maitrin, the preschool, Welsh preschool group, and Menteriaith.
203. 01:26:14 who obviously have a responsibility to promote the Welsh language. We also, through our strategic funding for voluntary sector groups within the council, excuse me, actually do directly fund Mentiriaith, Seraflint, Arexam and Mediad Maitrin to support their activities in that.
204. 01:26:33 preschool and family space so we do have that sort of strategic route in to those groups who are out in the communities actively promoting the Welsh language because you are so right if we do not encourage families
205. 01:26:47 Even parents-to-be, as you yourself were, to think that this is an option for me, even though I am not from a Welsh median family. So that is why those groups are so important, why we do give them funding to support their activities and why they are core members of the Welsh Forum and sit within the subgroups of that forum, delivering on the action plan and reporting back on its progress. We have information on our website, again, about the benefits of bilingualism.
206. 01:27:17 a number of years ago, we refreshed, working with Modi Admaethrin, we refreshed a document that really demonstrates the research that underpins why learning a second language is so important in terms of, you know, neurological development and the benefit that that brings. And telling those stories of families who perhaps didn't feel confident, were brave enough to make that choice and then have reflected back, you know, the benefits as you've articulated there on their learners.
207. 01:27:46 Although, as you say, our responsibility is for statutory education, we work so closely with those groups because every one of our Welsh medium schools has a kilch, a maestrian attached to it. Again, bringing those learners in to that preschool setting. And you'll know in the new Croissaty building, as in all of our other buildings, that provision is there for...
208. 01:28:10 you know, for those families. And again, our schools know that that early engagement as well is key in securing, you know, those learners coming into their school. I don't know whether the cabinet member would want to think it's the chair of the forum, but I think it's, you know, just to give you that reassurance, we don't just think about what happens at five. We are doing everything we can, working with the bodies who are out there in the communities to actively encourage parents to make that choice. But do carry on.
209. 01:28:43 Yes, it's a really proactive, positive forum, isn't it, the Western Forum, where there's a lot of engagement. There are three sub-committees who do an awful lot of work just kind of digging onto the skin of it, really. And there is that realisation that with children enjoying the language and being comfortable with it is key to more and more engagement in relation to Welsh. So in addition to those groups being on the forum and the work done by Mentally Eye and stuff like that,
210. 01:29:11 We're really pushing the Camarai campus to just get over that barrier of people being a little bit scared or worried or unfamiliar with the language. And, of course, the investment in the immersion centre, Team I, to again give that support. So if we don't catch them early enough, we can still support them and catch them at a later date. And, of course, those people coming into the county as well, we can give that support to them.
211. 01:29:41 Thank you, Councillor Eastward. Councillor Lister. Just finally, on page 55, the objective is creating inspiring, innovative and inclusive learning environments. I just noticed that the performance summary and the areas for improvement, they all relate to buildings and physical space. And I was just wondering sort of why it didn't relate more to the people and the relationships and things that happen.
212. 01:30:09 already been discussed earlier on in the meeting. Thank you, Councillor Liz. Specifically, because it's around places, it was very much reflecting the work we are doing to create those physical learning environments.
213. 01:30:26 We all know what a difference a high quality building makes in terms of inspiring our learners and our workforce. So that's why the focus has been very much around, you know, that capital investment there. But hopefully you've seen through other aspects, like the belonging strategy, like our focus on high quality teaching first, the support, you know, for our schools through our school improvement service. All of that is contributing to the ethos, to the quality of the curriculum, to the quality of the teaching. And it's those things combined, isn't it?
214. 01:30:56 really positive for our learners. But that was the opportunity. You know, there's a huge amount of investment, capital investment made in buildings. We needed to reflect that within the plan, you know, as we work through our, you know, strategic outline plan approved by Welsh Government, obviously in the work of Jenny and the team of really making sure that our buildings are fit for purpose. So we felt it was really important to reflect that. Thank you. Thank you, Chief Officer. Councillor Lister.
215. 01:31:21 All right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for those questions and the responses. Councillor Carolyn Preece. Thank you, Chair. I just want to go back to the beginning of the report where it says that, hang on, under 1.01, if I can find it. There it is. In line with these requirements, the council prepares council plans monitoring reports on a quarterly basis.
216. 01:31:52 Forgive me on this one. Have we have we had these reports on a quarterly basis? Because I don't seem to remember having them brought to this committee. It does say that we would have them on here. It says quarterly basis with both the mid term and end term performance reports going via the full report cycle. So that would be my first question. Then my second question. Do you want me to? Yes. Yeah.
217. 01:32:22 That's fine, thanks. Do you want me to carry on? Okay. So if we then go into our areas of outcome, where it says continue to work with schools to reduce the number, I know that this is just an overview report. However, I'd have liked to have seen the hyperlink there with a document which states how that is happening and what target figures we're looking at as your priorities.
218. 01:32:53 for all three of those and then when you've got your open risks as well um it quite clearly states in this the lack of resources the lack of capital investment it's all about finances this what we've talked about this an awful lot and the deficit of the schools which i thank councillors so that was on my list of questions to actually bring attention to this a lot of this is around
219. 01:33:23 the low amount that you've got to play with within education. And it is now significantly affecting, and it is in this report, even though it says lack of resources and capital, it means it's the finances that are affecting this portfolio dramatically. And I know that it hasn't included it within this report about the deficits of the schools, but we are on,
220. 01:33:53 uh risk level five which is more than significant it's um devastating isn't is that the wording for it um that we're now on that level and i think that should have featured somewhere within that report as well thank you chair thank you councillor praise um now we have two questions there does anybody in particular sorry if i can just come in on the uh one point
221. 01:34:24 I will check with the performance team, but my understanding is that following the adoption of the new council plan, which was significantly different, and that now we only have three priorities, it required the team to report differently in terms of the system, how this information is all pulled together. So this is the first time that this report in this format has been produced.
222. 01:34:52 We will get them quarterly moving forward, but this is the first time that it's come in this format, Councillor Priest. Thank you for that explanation. Can I have the wording changed in this report to in future that will be reported in that? Because it doesn't read right there. Yeah, I'm happy to feed that back to the performance team. Thank you. Okay, yes, yeah.
223. 01:35:16 Chief, did you wish to respond to Councillor Preece's second fund? I think, you know, Councillor Preece's comments about how that links to the overall risk around school funding, I think, is a discussion, again, back through the performance team, really, who, you know, have provided the structure for the report. So perhaps, Kerry, we can make a note and take that back as well in terms of how perhaps other risks are reflected within the quarterly reporting. Does it link back to, you know, just say the open and live risk registers?
224. 01:35:48 Very much. Councillor Andrew Parkhurst. I note the risk of failing to meet the statutory targets in the Welsh Education Strategic Plan. This is on page 43 of the document. And I welcome the comments of the Chief Officer and the Cabinet Member for means to address this, particularly amongst early years.
225. 01:36:21 My question is that with the proposed closure of a primary school on the border with England, how will that help meet the targets in the Welsh Education Strategic Plan when children will effectively be encouraged to have their education over the border in England? Thank you, Councillor Parkhurst.
226. 01:36:53 We are not encouraging learners to take their education over the border. It is parental choice. And we have been very clear that there is an offer for Flincher learners to access their education in a Flincher setting if they so choose. Further speakers. So we'll go back to the recommendations in respect of page 37.
227. 01:37:25 I just wanted to comment here that I had the privilege of 1.110. I did, in fact, with some of the rest of you, have the privilege of building...
228. 01:37:38 visiting Usgo Croisati on Monday. I'm very sorry that I couldn't make it to a mini visit on Wednesday because I was actually chairing a reading group about children's books, but I would like to go another time. We were given a tour by the headteacher and it was such a pleasure. Councillor Eastwood were there as well. It was a revelation to visit this building, which is child-centred in respect of...
229. 01:38:07 the little banisters going down the stairs, which was a huge problem for me when I was at school. I'm up there because I was always a little dot. Same with my daughter as well. So it was totally child-centred, totally community-centred, fully DDA compliant and health and safety compliant as well. So that was a great pleasure. And if anybody didn't have the chance to visit it, I do actually urge you.
230. 01:38:35 uh to go um the other comment that i want to make is that both councillor crease and i did a great deal of background reading for the estin inspection and that was a revelation as well in that we do actually realize what a great deal of work goes on behind the scenes that we're just not simply aware of even in this committee uh so that was a revelation as well um so
231. 01:39:03 No further speakers. So if we can move back to page 32, review, provide comments and observations on the council plan end of year performance report, which we have indeed done. Do I have a mover for the recommendation? Do I have a mover? Councillor Lister. Seconder, Councillor McCowan. All those in favour of the recommendation? That's unanimous check.
232. 01:39:33 You're unanimous. Thank you very much. Now then, we are about to move into part two. We are actually awaiting the Chief Officer for...
233. 01:40:00 Chief Officer of Governance is online. Oh, is he online? Right, right. We are actually about to move into part two on the recommendation of the Chief Officer of Governance, and he is online, beg your pardon. But as it is 20 to 12, how would the committee feel about taking a comfort break now? Because we have three items. All those in favour of taking a break now, right? Sorry, Chair, before members move.
234. 01:40:29 could i suggest as the remaining items on the agenda of part two that before the comfort break then that we could um take a vote on the chair on moving to part two um only because then
235. 01:40:43 for anybody watching online they don't have to wait and come back if if the committee vote in in that way very true very true very true excellent thinking as well um we have three items in we have two items in part two and this is in fact on the recommendation of the officer for governance so i'm happy with that can we have a move sorry sorry before that councillor andrew parkhurst yeah yeah thank you
236. 01:41:10 thank you chair just just two points or questions first is a point really that i note that you have made the decision not to allow members of this council to contribute to the debate unless they are an actual member of this committee or a substituting member that is the first time that has happened to my knowledge on any committee that i've been involved with
237. 01:41:36 and clearly gives the impression that debate is being stifled, but you obviously have the right to make that determination. My point I'd like to ask the monitoring officer, please, regarding going into part two, is that usually when there is legal advice provided to the council, there is a clear jeopardy to the council if that legal advice...
238. 01:42:04 is disclosed to the public for obvious reasons. But in this case, the legal advice to which that related was a consultation which was stopped. It was halted. And therefore, I am unclear what the legal jeopardy is to the Council were the item on the modernisation of the Catholic school estate.
239. 01:42:33 be um you know discussed in public so i would like the Montague officer's comments on that please Councillor Parkhurst in respect of myself all decisions that i have taken have been in partnership with democratic services and the chief officer for governance and also as i have said i did do a mental risk assessment on the heat of the day today but i am now going to call on the chief officer for governance thank you
240. 01:43:00 Thank you, Chair. The report that was requested specifically asked to look at how the legal advice that was given in relation to the first consultation has been reflected in relation to the second. The implication of that being clearly that if we were to sit here, which we're not going to do, but if we were to sit here and say, well, we haven't followed that advice, we haven't followed that advice, we haven't followed that advice, that would clearly be giving those who wanted to oppose the...
241. 01:43:34 the consultation, the opportunity to hear advice in relation to the second consultation, wouldn't it, Chair? And those were hypothetical suggestions, Chair. I'm not saying that that's the position. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Chief Officer. Did you want to speak, Councillor? Sorry, Councillor Jones is indicating, Chair. Councillor Richard Jones.
242. 01:44:00 Yes, it was just in relation to the comments made by Councillor Parker as a precedent. He said that you had stopped unstifled debate. That isn't the case. Many times in scrutiny, as a scrutiny chair of corporate resources, I would not allow observers to speak only because it's a timing issue and you need to give more time to the members of the committee to make the comments and get through the agenda items that have been discussed. So it's not always...
243. 01:44:27 There is precedent in the past time, but many times that's happened. But it's purely, it's down to the chair to identify whether that is a timing issue. And I think you've done the right thing in the decision you've made. Thank you very much, Councillor Jones. As I have said, I was particularly concerned about the length of meetings in due of the excessive heat we are going through today.
244. 01:44:48 And I have been incredibly pleased with the contributions from all of the committee present today. I think, you know, you've all had plenty to say that was excellent. So thank you. We are moving to the vote. So can we have a mover to move into part two? Councillor Bill Crease. Do we have a seconder? Councillor Dave Healy. All those four. That's unanimous, Chair.
245. 01:45:23 it is unanimous thank you very much uh in this case we will now take a 15 minute