Committee
Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 26 March 2026
26 Mar 2026
Fran Lister
Committee appearance update.
Meeting Overview
This post covers my appearance at Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 26 March 2026.
Highlights
Clip 1
Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
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| 00:00:06 | Last May, 22nd May, I made a recommendation that was unanimously supported by the committee and that was to outline how resource levels, curriculum breadth and school funding affect attendance and exclusions and what preventative strategies, including investment in teaching and learning, are needed to reduce disengagement. That was the recommendation that was supported by everybody. I note that the annual report on attendance and exclusions is going to be brought to our next meeting in May, so I was wondering if we could have an update on progress |
| 00:00:36 | to date. The second recommendation in that same meeting that was also unanimously supported was that the cabinet be asked to consider and report a risk management strategy on the long-term financial consequences of underfunding schools, including rising costs associated with out-of-school provision, exclusion and youth disengagement. It appears to have disappeared from the action tracking, so should I take that as an indication that the cabinet will not be addressing the recommendations of this committee? Thank you. Chair, it's actually democratic services that |
| 00:01:09 | manage the action tracking, so it's not the cabinet would have removed that. I will check with Kerry as to why that is not there, so I'm not able to answer that question. |
Clip 2
Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
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| 00:00:00 | you. Councillor Fran Lister. I just wanted to sort of reassure Councillor Healy that the staff know the children really well certainly in primary schools and I'm sure it is different in secondary schools but we had an evening at my son's school and the catering staff were there to provide the meals for the parents so we could go and see exactly what they ate and when we went up they knew every child by name and they said to my child oh you do you want the vegetarian and we're like and he's told them he's vegetarians every day at school he gets the vegetarian option |
| 00:00:34 | which is news to us but the staff knew the staff know and like they were really like I think on in in primary schools they can just cater to they get to know what the different dietary requirements are and what the preferences are for the for the very young children anyway so thank you for that really and yeah he can have vegetarian at home now. |
Full Session
Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
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| 00:00:00 | This is the last committee meeting I believe for some time as we move into the pre-election period. We are blessed and privileged indeed, are we not? Your very last minute chair is me, Gina Madison, Vice Chair of Education, Youth and Culture. This is due to Councillor Carberry being delayed |
| 00:00:21 | on a medical appointment, which was unavoidable. We wish her all the very best. Also, I would like to send best wishes to Kerry Shotton from Democratic Services, who is also unwell. I'm in a very amiable mood because I've just had news of a new great-niece |
| 00:00:42 | who arrived in the world yesterday, Leonora Olivia. I'm in a very good mood this afternoon, so I'm hoping to keep it that way. Yes, yes, yes. Therefore, I have Steve Goodrum from Democratic Services, supporting me, helping me, being by crutch. |
| 00:01:03 | We have Nicola Gittins streaming the meeting online. Welcome to all officers and members in the chamber and online. Welcome also to our co-opted members, Lisa Allen and Lynne Bartlett. Welcome also to Wendy White, representing the Diocese of Wrexham. |
| 00:01:26 | Welcome to our guest speakers this afternoon. We have some guest speakers. A specially warm welcome to Councillor Gladys Healy, who's just joined this committee. Welcome to Gladys. So, I look forward to a lively meeting. |
| 00:01:41 | You know me, I've sat here before and I've got an RRCC role. I like meetings to be robust, yes, I like meetings to be robust, but I like them to show respect for the views of others, even if you don't actually agree with those rules. And I like a meeting of civility and courtesy, which I'm sure we're going to have, |
| 00:02:05 | in which we set a very example to those children and young people who we are discussing this afternoon. A few reminders before we start. We have a very long agenda. I will be calling, therefore, a comfort break every two hours. Now, I will mention here that this building does close at 7 o'clock. |
| 00:02:28 | This building closes at 7 o'clock. In the hopefully unlikely event we're still here at half past six, I will be closing the meeting to allow the caretaker time to lock up and close the windows and for us to have democratic services clear the room up. Now, I do mention this because this meeting cannot be deferred. |
| 00:02:54 | It cannot be deferred. We cannot fit any unfinished business from this meeting in before the pre-election period. So, that's just a reminder, therefore. Can I also ask, and this has cropped up before, those who have many questions for the cabinet and for the officers, |
| 00:03:15 | please offer those questions one at a time. This is helpful to them. It's also helpful for me. My memory is not as it was 50 years ago, when I could recite to be or not to be off by heart. I can't do that anymore. |
| 00:03:32 | In view of the length of the agenda, can I ask also that we are succinct in our questions? Can we give page reference rather than read large chunks of text around? As I've said, I do not think if we don't finish this meeting, we cannot recall it before the end of the pre-election period. |
| 00:03:59 | Observers who have asked to speak, who are not members of the committee, I will call you after the committee members have spoken. I apologise in advance for any long wait that you have to put through. I will remind you here as well that because of the length of the agenda, that we are here to hear questions this afternoon and to give feedback. We are not here for statements. |
| 00:04:28 | I have been asked to remind you that we are moving into the pre-election period so political statements are not permitted and will be closed down. I will close them down. We'll move on to the agenda. Before we begin, I wanted to mention, which I was going to do anyway, |
| 00:04:52 | I know some of you will have seen the press release which came out yesterday, in which we learnt that our play development team were one of three finalists in the frontline playwork category at the National Playwork Conference. Here I just wanted to record many congratulations to Darren Morris from Play Development and his team. |
| 00:05:15 | That's an absolutely marvellous achievement. Thank you very much for that. We move on to the agenda. Number one, apologies. We have several substitutions. We have Councillor Mel Booker, |
| 00:05:31 | a substitute for Councillor Theresa Carberry, Councillor Sean Bibby, a substitute for Councillor Ryan McEwen and Councillor Fran Lister, a substitute for Councillor Andy Hughes. No other apologies received. Thank you very much. Number two, do we have declarations of interest? |
| 00:05:47 | Any declarations of interest? At this point, after speaking to Steve, I do want to advise that when we come to Gwethla, I am a former colleague and a personal friend of Chief Librarian Kate Leonard, who is mentioned in the Gwethla report as a co-author. |
| 00:06:07 | I've been told that this is a personal declaration. Councillor Mackay, sorry. Councillor Jones as well. Sorry, Councillor Jones. I will be declaring the personal and personal interest on the item being referred to Gwethla, |
| 00:06:25 | which is item 11. Thank you, Councillor Jones. Councillor Mackay, with apologies. Thank you, Chair. The item on the schools... The nourishing catering, item 10, |
| 00:06:47 | does mention Hardin High School, I think. I am a governor at Hardin High. I don't think it's a prejudicial interest. I think it's just a personal interest that this committee should be aware of. Thank you, Chair. |
| 00:07:01 | Thank you very much, Councillor Mackay. Yes, I did notice the schools that were mentioned. Thank you for that. Sorry, Councillor Parkhurst. Just seeking advice from Democratic Services on whether those members with children who have school dinners |
| 00:07:22 | need to declare an interest in view of the item on nourishing catering or whether that is not applicable. Just a moment. I don't think we need to do anything with that one, Chair. If members choose to make a personal interest only, that would be fine, but I don't think there's a requirement |
| 00:07:40 | specifically to declare for that item. Is that OK, Councillor Parkhurst? Thank you very much. Minutes, we have three sets of minutes, pages 5 to 22. So, one at a time. |
| 00:07:57 | I have been advised that the minutes are for accuracy checking only, not for questions or matters arising. So, if we can turn to the minutes from the 29th of January, 2026. And page 9. Thank you very much, Councillor Mackay. Do we have a seconder? |
| 00:08:47 | Yes, Councillor Shawcross. So, can we have a vote who is for the minutes? No, we don't ask for abstentions. Thank you very much, everybody. So, we can move on to 6th of February, 2026. Do we have a seconder? |
| 00:09:51 | Can we have a vote in favour of the minutes? That was a unanimous vote. Thank you very much. Minutes from the 13th of February. That's quite a lot of minutes, aren't there? Pages 20 and 21. |
| 00:10:37 | Do we have anybody who wants to move these minutes? Councillor Shawcross, thank you. Seconded, Councillor Mackay, thank you. Can we have a vote for the minutes? Thank you very much for those. Urgent matters as agreed by the Chair. |
| 00:11:03 | Notice of items which, in the opinion of the Chair, could be considered at the meeting as a matter of urgency pursuant to section 100B, 4 of the Local Government Act 1972. Now, I have had, or rather, Councillor Calbury has had, a request from Councillor Coggins-Cogan |
| 00:11:24 | to ask questions, but we're not quite sure from your email, Councillor Coggins-Cogan, did you actually intend it to be an urgent matter? Or is it simply questions at some other part of the agenda? We're not quite sure from your email. Thank you, Chair. |
| 00:11:42 | It is urgent. I think because this is the last meeting we have until May, so I was hoping for an update from the Cabinet member on the press releases put out yesterday following the collapse of the school reorganisational scheme. I was hoping that we could have a verbal update |
| 00:12:04 | from the Cabinet member, particularly because I think we owe a duty of care to the staff who are employed by us, the parents and the residents of Flintshire. There's significant public concern because of the huge public interest in this |
| 00:12:21 | and the, I would say, I know it may be under some dispute, but record-breaking public engagement with this process and consultation and deferring consideration risks for the decisions or progress without appropriate or sort of transparent oversight. |
| 00:12:40 | So I was not really asking questions. I just wanted an update. If anything could be expanded on yesterday's press release and in particular perhaps why the consultation process was so flawed that it seemed to be fatal and it has to be re-run. Thank you, Chair. |
| 00:12:58 | You requested for the Cabinet member. Is that the Cabinet member? Or do you not want the Chief Officer for Education as well? I'm specifically asking the Cabinet member because I think this is the correct form for it. This is a policy decision |
| 00:13:20 | rather than the implementation by the Chief Officer. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Easterwood, do you wish to respond? The consultation was deferred from the last Cabinet meeting due to the late legal advice that was given to allow us to take our own legal advice |
| 00:13:42 | and fully consider that in relation to flaws or no flaws in relation to the consultation document because nothing's been accepted in relation to that at this moment because we're not in a position to comment. Then we're in the pre-election period which is why the consultation cannot be considered now |
| 00:14:04 | before the 7th of May at which time we'll have run out of time to complete the consultation process. That is the reason why the consultation will go back to Cabinet for a request for it to start again. It's because of the pre-election period, no other reason. |
| 00:14:23 | I'm not really in a position to comment any further on that because we are in the pre-election period. Thank you, Councillor Easterwood. Thank you, Chair. I will be very, very brief. I do think it's particularly concerning that we've had a delay and we're now going back to the start |
| 00:14:44 | and we don't know whether it's flawed or not despite the council having received legal advice. I find that an extraordinary position to be in that we don't know whether this process is flawed or not. We've had a legal challenge from the parents. We've now had the council's own legal advice |
| 00:15:01 | and we're still none the wiser. I find that quite an extraordinary admission. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much, Councillor Coggins-Cogan. We're going to move on to item number five. It's an urgent question, Councillor Parker. |
| 00:15:23 | It is an urgent question, Chair. I'd like to ask the Cabinet member how much the failed education consultation cost and I'd like to know whether the reference to Cabinet being asked in May... Councillor Parker, Steve Goodrum has advised me |
| 00:15:56 | to close this consultation down and he will explain why. The purpose of urgent items is where the Chair is notified, usually in the middle of the question to be asked. This question hasn't been notified as far as I'm aware. We've addressed the question from Councillor Coggins-Cogan who pre-notified the Chair of a question. |
| 00:16:16 | It's inappropriate to open new items under this item when officers aren't able to prepare any response or the Cabinet members either. At this moment in time, Chair, I would advise that we do not take any more urgent matters from that perspective. Thank you very much. |
| 00:16:33 | I bow to the will of Democratic Services. Apologies, Councillor Parker. If we can move on to item five, forward work programme and action tracking. I think you're going to take us through this, aren't you, Steve? Thank you, Chair. |
| 00:16:57 | Obviously, you would normally have Kerry Shotten, the facilitator, for this committee to update. Obviously, Kerry's not here. She's unwell today. I will take you through the reports which start at page 23. As I'm advised, there are no proposed changes to the forward work programme, including the appendix one. |
| 00:17:16 | I do have a number of updates from Kerry in relation to the action tracking. I will go through those now once I can work this out. Bear with me one second. I'll get to the relevant section for you. Under the item from the 4th of December 2025, a sickness absence report to schools. |
| 00:17:38 | I'm advised that Sharon Cunning, the HR manager, is as committed to confirm that the reports and format will be presented in the same format as requested. Further, on the 29th of January, the report on the interim executive board will be added to the forward work programme. |
| 00:18:01 | Kerry, the facilitator, will contact Councillor McEwen following the advisor. She will contact Councillor McEwen to better understand the information. That will be taken forward now. The service manager for items on the 29th of January again, for housing welfare and community health, |
| 00:18:19 | has confirmed that it will be not possible for the report to be processed before July. This is relating to the Holy Hunger programme, Chair, because there is the procurement exercise being undertaken at the moment. Whilst that's going on, there's a little update |
| 00:18:34 | that can be provided to the committee. Other than that, Chair, the items that are marked as resolved are done so, and ongoing matters will be picked up by Kerry when she returns back from absence. We'll have to take any suggestions for forward work programme items |
| 00:18:49 | or questions on the report, Chair. Thank you. Do we have any questions? Last May, 22nd of May, I made a recommendation that was unanimously supported by the committee. That was to outline how resource levels, curriculum reps and school funding affect attendance and exclusions, |
| 00:19:12 | and what preventative strategies, including investment in teaching and learning, are needed to reduce disengagement. That was the recommendation that was supported by everybody. I note that the annual report on attendance and exclusions is going to be brought to our next meeting in May, |
| 00:19:26 | so I was wondering if we could have an update on progress to date. The second recommendation in that same meeting, that was also unanimously supported, was that the cabinet be asked to consider and report a risk management strategy on the long-term financial consequences of underfunding schools, |
| 00:19:44 | including rising costs associated with out-of-school provision, exclusion and youth disengagement. It appears to have disappeared from the action tracking, so should I take that as an indication that the cabinet will not be addressing the recommendations of this committee? |
| 00:20:02 | It's actually democratic services that manage the action tracking, so the cabinet would have removed that. I will check with Kerry as to why that is not there, so I'm not able to answer that question. Thank you. Any further questions? Just to answer Councillor Lister's other request, |
| 00:20:26 | I will take that and consult with the Office of the Back, when we can get that on the agenda for an item. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. I've got four items I'd like to be considered for the forward work programme. |
| 00:20:48 | The first one is relating to Flint High School. In the Chief Officer for Education's email of 28th January to all members, it was stated regarding Flint High School, a detailed report will be presented to this scrutiny committee |
| 00:21:08 | for appropriate scrutiny. I think we ought to have that report, and it should include what investigations have been carried out and the results of those investigations. I note with regard to that, that internal audits have completed what they term |
| 00:21:28 | an advisory audit, and that this has been submitted to the portfolio and to the Chief Officer team. Therefore, I think this committee should also see the results of that internal audit. That's my first request for addition. |
| 00:21:47 | Would you like me to move on to the others or to consider that first? I carry on. Thank you. The second item I'd like to be put on the forward work programme is that this committee should see the legal advice regarding the Roman Catholic schools' proposals |
| 00:22:11 | confidentially to all members, and that legal advice should be discussed in a part two session. That is my second request. The third one is regarding contract procedure rules. If you refer a little later to the action tracking, you will see that there are unanswered questions |
| 00:22:46 | regarding direct award contracts, which have been unanswered for the past ten months. There has just been an audit, an internal audit of another portfolio's adherence to the contract procedure rules, which has revealed significant shortcomings, |
| 00:23:04 | and I pay tribute to that other portfolio for actually initiating that audit to discover what was going on, and that was very commendable. My concern is that the pro actis system is a corporate procurement and contract management system |
| 00:23:24 | for the whole council, not just that other portfolio. If there are concerns about not adhering to the contract procedure rules for that portfolio, there may well be concerns with this portfolio. Bearing in mind, we are awaiting responses to the questions about the direct award contracts |
| 00:23:45 | now for over ten months. I think this is a matter which should come with a report to this committee, and therefore to be added to the forward work programme. My final request is that in view of the position with St Anthony's in Salteney, |
| 00:24:08 | where the parents and teachers and children were told the school was going to close this September, what is happening with the admissions? All the staff concerned, the parents, teachers, children, the whole community cannot be left in limbo while this is being considered, |
| 00:24:27 | so there needs to be absolute clarity for all concerned as to what the admissions process is in September. We have a meeting on the 19th of May scheduled, and I feel that all those items should be scheduled for the 19th of May. Thank you, Chair. |
| 00:24:48 | Chair, of the four items there, the suggested guidance for inclusion on the forward work programme is including paragraph 102. From what I can see, the majority of those would come under at least one of those six suggested criteria that the committee consider. |
| 00:25:09 | The latter one, number four, is whether that will be appropriate for scrutiny, is what you're asking scrutiny to scrutinise, I suppose, is the question for that one, because the admissions policy is probably difficult to scrutinise something that... |
| 00:25:25 | I don't know if I'm trying to explain it to everyone, but it's got to have a reason to scrutinise something, and I couldn't quite glean what you were looking to scrutinise in terms of your suggestion there, Councillor Pike, so maybe it's me misunderstanding or not taking it down, but the other three certainly do seem to fall under |
| 00:25:44 | one of those six criteria. Whether they can be done in May, that's obviously ambitious, I would suggest, but again, I can tell that there's an action back to consult with the officers, along with Kerry, the facilitator, to see when they can be scheduled. |
| 00:26:00 | Obviously, as you know, they do need to be... Some are quite time-sensitive, but May might be slightly up to it, and they are scheduled for that committee as well. But certainly, if you can just kind of afford one, because it's important that the scrutiny committee |
| 00:26:17 | do understand what they have to scrutinise, so it's just that clarity we need for that one, Chair. Thank you, Mr Goodwin. Regarding that last item of the admissions process, there has been a lack of clarity as to what the admissions process was for parents, and there has been concern |
| 00:26:34 | that parents and the children have been perhaps disadvantaged, So this committee does need to look at carefully what the admissions process is for that particular school. And it needs to be done urgently, because the clock is ticking, and parents and teachers and so forth |
| 00:26:59 | need to know what the situation is. Just regarding your point about the scheduling of these items, my request, too, for the legal advice to be considered is absolutely urgent, because the press release yesterday said that cabinet approval will be sought in May. |
| 00:27:23 | Now, if that is being... I wasn't actually sure whether the cabinet approval will be sought in May, or whether the re-consultation, if it goes ahead, would be conducted in May. But whichever way, whichever meaning it is, |
| 00:27:39 | there is an absolute urgency for this committee to consider the legal implications of the whole process. So I would certainly request, Mr Goodwin, that that item be included in the May meeting. Chair, thank you for that. And thank you for the clarity, Councillor Parkhurst. |
| 00:27:58 | What I would say is that the role of scrutiny is to scrutinise decisions or actions that are taken. So it probably wouldn't be appropriate for the committee to look at the admissions process moving forward. It's more retrospective in that regard. That would need to be dealt with elsewhere, |
| 00:28:16 | and I would guess that the cabinet member is looking to comment on that one. If I can just address the legal aspect or legal advice, I will need to take advice from the monitoring officer whether that information is available to be released, because some legal advice is privileged, |
| 00:28:31 | so I would need to take some advice before committing to bringing that back to committee. And obviously, that's an I can't give back assurance now, it will be, but I will take that advice from the monitoring officer. But the cabinet member is looking to comment on that, Chair. Just in relation to the admissions, |
| 00:28:49 | now that St Anthony's is on the online portal for Flintshire, whilst they remain as the admitting authority, admissions will still be taken through the online portal until such time as a final decision is made one way or the other. So, we have written to the school, but we can write again to the school to clarify that position. |
| 00:29:16 | Yeah, just two points. In regards to St Anthony's Stortney, I believe the admissions process closed some months ago, and if a school is stated as being closed, this coming September, it puts all those concerned, the children, the parents, the teachers, |
| 00:29:36 | etc., in a very difficult position. There needs to be absolute clarity that admissions are open and the school isn't going to close in September, period. And secondly, regarding the legal advice, just for complete clarity, the monitoring officer has given me a copy |
| 00:29:58 | of the legal advice in strict confidence, and I'm not allowed to say a word to anyone about it, and I fully accept that. But if I've received it as a member of the committee, then I think all members of the committee should see the same information that I've got |
| 00:30:14 | and be able to discuss it in a closed session and observe due confidentiality. I wasn't aware that Councillor Parkhurst had been finished with that information prior to the meeting, but obviously I will still need to take advice from the monitoring officer whether that can be discussed |
| 00:30:33 | on our day committee, whether it be closed session or not. I've lost my train of thought there. But yeah, certainly the ones can be considered. And I think the role of scrutiny is not to make a decision about or look at what is happening in terms of admissions or otherwise or any topic particularly. |
| 00:30:54 | It's what lessons can be learned or what process is shown, whether there's any failures in there, what's happened through it. So I'm not trying to deflect it, but I think the role of scrutiny is to be more questioning |
| 00:31:06 | of what's happened rather than what's happening. And as the cabinet member has already given that assurance that the school have been content about the admissions process and how that's working forward, the role of scrutiny really, I would suggest in this instance, is to look at lessons learned and how things have happened |
| 00:31:20 | if anything has been done incorrectly or what can be taken from that. So it's more to do with... I would say the role of scrutiny rather than what's happening with admissions in September because that's more a decision outside of the scope of scrutiny. |
| 00:31:37 | I think the danger as well here, Chair, is we're getting into a question-and-answer session about certain things. The point of this item is to put things on the full work programme. I've committed to take these away and look at when these can be scheduled. |
| 00:31:49 | So rather than going to ask questions here and there without any preparation for the officers or our cabinet member, I need to go away and work with Kerry and the monitoring officers to find out when we can schedule some of these items, Chair. So I would suggest, my advice to you, Chair, is that we look at other items, if there are any. |
| 00:32:08 | Right, thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor Parkhurst. Are there any more questions? Councillor Preece, online. Thank you, Chair. I'm not sure whether I can ask this question, but I'm going to try. |
| 00:32:23 | Going through the work programme that we've actually got, mostly on our agenda... I hope I'm not too loud in the room because I've been on the other end of this and usually the voices come booming at you, so apologies if I am. |
| 00:32:37 | Mostly, we've got three large items that we discuss at our meetings. Today on our agenda, we have six. We've been told that we are limited to time today. On how much we can actually look, either scrutiny or make our comments or question about these items. |
| 00:33:01 | If the items that we've got on today are not time-sensitive, I would ask if we could move some of the agenda items that are on today back onto the work programme because I feel we're not going to be able to scrutinise all of these agenda items because we've got six large agenda items. |
| 00:33:23 | On average, we usually have three. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Preece. We are concerned here about the fact that we do need to vacate this room by 6.30. We have decided to reassess at circa... |
| 00:33:39 | I will be calling a break at 4 o'clock, 6 o'clock. We will reassess at some point what happens to the agenda. Sorry, Chair, that didn't answer the question. The question was, could some of these items be moved if they're not time-sensitive? Because we can't scrutinise them |
| 00:33:59 | to the length that they need to be scrutinised. Sorry, Chair. Thank you. Chair, I think it's a valid point about the number of items on the agenda. I think the key thing is that the reason for that is obviously that we've got the pre-election period and the reason for the meetings not happening at that time |
| 00:34:20 | primarily is because the service that I run, the Democratic service, is moving across to work for elections so we don't have the resource or capacity to run the two together. Members have had the papers in advance of the meeting so we'll be able to direct questions if they are more succinct, that would help. |
| 00:34:38 | I know members have in the past like to read the introduction or lead into a question. But as the Chair has alluded to, we will sort of look at how we go through the meeting and I'm looking to the officers to see. Pushing it back onto the full work programme |
| 00:34:54 | does obviously then create bottlenecks further down the line. I think it's just important that we do try to give each one as much time as it so needs and the Chair's discretion. We have spent 30-odd minutes now on the full work programme. If we can focus questions directly on the specific items rather than preamble into them, |
| 00:35:17 | then that will probably help the Chair to move the meeting along. I don't see any further speakers. Wait a minute, Councillor Bibby. Councillor Bibby online. Given that we are under very time-constrained circumstances, I think Councillor Priest makes a very good point |
| 00:35:43 | that we do have a very heavy agenda and maybe it would be helpful if we were advised maybe by officers on which agenda items are not particularly time-sensitive, so we know that we can keep the debate on that very concise and then concentrate our efforts and time and scrutiny |
| 00:36:03 | on the agenda items that are very important and obviously are time-sensitive. The agenda is pulled together carefully to ensure that the right items come to the right meeting, so officers and preamble are consulted about what items need to come to committee. |
| 00:36:24 | I would suggest that these items today do need to be heard today. I'm looking to officers to see if anything... I'm not familiar with the work programme, so I do know that obviously May and June do have items already scheduled, so it's going to put further pressure on those meetings |
| 00:36:41 | and then it's how far down do we seem to be squeezing, so some items may take longer than others and that's usually the way in committee I've found that I usually suggest half an hour per item, but that varies depending on the item, so I would suggest possibly that we do look to achieve |
| 00:36:58 | as much as we possibly can do today, Chair, and if officers do have a view that some items could be moved around on the agenda to get the urgent ones out of the way first off or more pressing items to the beginning or towards the start of the meeting, |
| 00:37:15 | and then if we do end up past 6.30, which I hope not, then we can judge it further through the agenda, Chair, so whether you want to take a quick recess to consult or whether that's something we can look to do now. Perhaps if officers can consider that. |
| 00:37:36 | I do actually want to close this part now on which we've now spent 40 minutes. I have one comment myself, which is that holiday hunger appears under Friday 17 July. I believe there was a request to move it further up the agenda, but I'm not sure if that's actually going to happen, Steve. |
| 00:37:58 | Maybe you can take that one. It's on the action tracking, Chair, that does say that there's a procurement tendering exercise so again, depending on the time for that, I would suggest July is the appropriate meeting time at the moment. Right, thank you very much for that. |
| 00:38:17 | Other questions on forward work programme and action tracking. The forward work programme should be approved as amended, but the facilitator in consultation with the chair of committee be there authorised to vary the forward work programme and the programmes made in completing the outstanding actions is noted. |
| 00:38:46 | Do we have a proposer for this? Councillor Hodge, thank you. Do we have a seconder? Councillor Crease, thank you. Can we have a vote? Okay, that's carried. Thank you very much. |
| 00:39:20 | Right, we do in fact now have a change on the agenda, so if I can ask you, we are moving to item 11, Flintshire Libraries and Leisure Limited, aka Wefla Business Plan, on pages 167 to 218 of your pack, |
| 00:39:38 | and this is because Wefla cannot remain with us for the rest of the afternoon. Now then, we do need to move into part two, as I understand. Can I have a proposer that we move into part two? Councillor Heatley, thank you. |
| 00:39:57 | A seconder, Councillor Shaw-Cross. Can we vote on moving into part two? And any abstentions? If you just wait one second, I'll just make sure that... You're live again now, chair. |
| 00:40:22 | Okay, are we online again? Thank you. Welcome back. Anybody who left us for a brief... For those online, we're just waiting for the members of the public to come back into the room, so just bear with us. Welcome back, everybody who had to leave the room for a short period, |
| 00:40:58 | so welcome back to all of you. We do actually now have another change in the agenda. In consultation with officers, we've moved item nine, Youth Services Evaluation, page 99, is next on the agenda |
| 00:41:13 | because we have a guest speaker, Matt Hayes from the Youth Service. But I do know that Councillor Marid Eastwood would like to say a few words before he begins. So, Councillor Eastwood. Good day, Ruth. |
| 00:41:29 | Just to say that this is a report which gives a full overview of all the services that Flintshire Youth Services provides. It is a dynamic team and I've been pleased to see how the service is evolving. The staff are becoming more skilled and involved in a number of projects, delivered both from within their own service |
| 00:41:45 | and in conjunction with partners, focusing always on the needs and aspirations of our young people. I congratulate them on achieving the Quality Mark Bronze Award and look forward to them achieving silver in due course. In providing both the universal youth provision and targeted support, all young people have the opportunity to benefit from their services, |
| 00:42:04 | which are wide and varied. Their achievements include the work they have done in relation to Young Flintshire, which is developing further with Young Flintshire and our participation strategy. The innovative Athena and Goliath programmes, |
| 00:42:17 | we have received a powerful presentation, I hope you all remember, at scrutiny from pupils who had taken part in these programmes, when they described the positive impacts the programmes had made on them. I look forward to the system being developed, which will facilitate further engagement with these programmes. |
| 00:42:33 | The Snow Camp is another exciting project which has allowed young people to gain both confidence in themselves and sports leadership qualifications. I particularly enjoyed the celebration event, held for young people to celebrate achievements which were achieved outside of the mainstream school setting |
| 00:42:49 | and which gave us an opportunity to formally recognise our achievements. It really was lovely to be able to celebrate their successes with them. The Pride event is always worth a mention too. I think it was great that it was hosted in a different school this time and allowed that school the opportunity to showcase its talents also. The event celebrates identity, self-expression and inclusion |
| 00:43:10 | and it's a joy to attend. Especially with the glitter, isn't it, Claire? Other areas to highlight briefly within the report include the levels of engagement such as within the Youth Homelessness Team, the DOV participation and a relation to the Welsh language offer, to name but a few. |
| 00:43:30 | I've only picked out elements of the report which is comprehensive and clear on the direction of travel. The service is on a journey and has an action plan for improvement. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much for that, Councillor Reeves. If we can welcome Matt Hayes from the Youth Service. |
| 00:43:49 | I just wanted to say that I very much enjoyed reading this report. I wanted to add my personal thanks to Matt and his team for helping set up a volunteer youth club in my ward in which they helped a community association and access funding, resources and training. Thank you for that. |
| 00:44:12 | Thank you, Chair. I'll take the report as read, if I may, so I'll just pick out some key points and then leave any time for any questions. I think, as Councillor Eastwood had alluded to, really, we are on that journey. We're on a journey of self-evaluation, we're on a journey of improvement. |
| 00:44:32 | It's the first time that we actually have had a standalone self-evaluation document having previously only contributed to the portfolio documents. I think what we wanted to do as a team is to highlight more of our successes, our areas where we want to improve, |
| 00:44:50 | which you'll see that comes out through the report. And then, furthermore, build that into an action plan. One thing I will say is that although the self-evaluation isn't rag-raced, bearing in mind some of the conversations that we've had in previous committee meetings, the action plan is. |
| 00:45:07 | So our action plan is our internal document, which focuses on what we're doing in 25, 26, to address our emerging practice. And we've deliberately used that language based on staff feedback. One of the things we're particularly proud of is every single member of our staff |
| 00:45:23 | has been involved in putting this self-evaluation together. So all of those members of staff contributed to it. That does bring with it some of its own challenges. For example, when we're assessing impact, we really need to assess whether that impact is just felt within a particular area of the service |
| 00:45:41 | or whether that is something that's universal across the service. So those are the things that will come out, really. So one of the things that we have said, which seems a little bit ironic, is we'll self-evaluate the self-evaluation. But it's a true point. |
| 00:45:57 | This is the first time we've done this document. And what we want to do is just make sure year on year, when we repeat the process, that it gets stronger and adds more meaning and value to our own, probably our own internal robustness, but also external scrutiny. |
| 00:46:16 | One thing we're particularly proud of when we look at items around such as attendance, over the last couple of years, has been an increase in attendance. And that's one of the things that deliberately we've meant to do. We have had to withdraw from some of our buildings, but what that hasn't meant, by working in different ways, |
| 00:46:34 | by working with community teams, is that we are increasing our footfall. Through increasing that footfall, we'll know that eventually, and the path that we're on, it's for all young people to be able to access the service at the point that they need the service, |
| 00:46:51 | so they know that they can access Funchy Youth Service. What I would say, and the document's quite clear, is we're not there yet. We've got plans afoot to get there. So, you know, we're confident that, again, we're moving in the right direction, and the stats bear that out. Some of the other things that are picked up in the report, |
| 00:47:09 | which are worth noting, is that you'll see now that there's more grant funding providing Funchy Youth Services and what there is, core funding. Plus, what's not mentioned in the document, but what has been in the press and at Welsh government level, is that over the next 12 months, |
| 00:47:26 | we'll be developing the statutory framework for youth work, which is a five-year strategic plan developed with ourselves on our community and volunteer partners. So, what we will be doing is reflecting more of what our partners are delivering, because it's not just Flyncher County Council, |
| 00:47:43 | which delivers youth services within Flyncher. We're very proud to say that we work very closely through our strategic groups with a range of partners, and there's some we're still to work with in terms of developing a youth work offer. So, that's something which very much is in hand, |
| 00:48:03 | but it's also in developments as well, because that's something we will improve. The self-evaluation picks up on some of that shared delivery, and I think what also hopefully articulates is the improved delegated leadership and strong planning that is in place |
| 00:48:21 | to be able to deliver a breadth and a range of services. If we take some of our targeted interventions that we could look at, a lot of the grant funding will work on targeted intervention, so it's not the open access youth clubs, so open access youth clubs worry traditional youth work, |
| 00:48:43 | where you may see people coming through the door for a variety of reasons to interact with their peers, but also with the youth workers, whereas our targeted may be more around the golden thread within education, really, so we may be doing something around young people who are neat, |
| 00:48:59 | and if we track some of that data, what we will see is there's a reduction in some of those key areas, and I think one of our challenges now as a service is how do we articulate the impact that we are making against that reduction, |
| 00:49:15 | because what we do know is that we are working with those young people, we are gathering young people's voice, but we need to be stronger in terms of measuring those impacts that we are making, and that's already in our work in progress, |
| 00:49:32 | so there's already those things that we are developing and we have developed and we've put into place, so what hopefully you will see in next year's self-evaluation is that we're picking up that emerging practice as strong practice, and then we're evidencing where that is. |
| 00:49:48 | We do have young people's voice throughout this document, all of the youth work provision is developed in partnership or in conjunction with young people, they're key to how we work, but what we've also developed now is our termly young person's voice, |
| 00:50:05 | so the document will stay live throughout the year, but each quarter, we'll run a report on what young people are telling us, so we'll have much more informed data about and up-to-date and current data about what young people are telling us. We will be looking for partner feedback |
| 00:50:22 | in terms of our self-evaluation processes, so through those established partnerships and non-established partners, we'll be looking at what they are saying, and we'll probably be looking to break down into more quarterly infographics |
| 00:50:35 | around some of those kind of good news stories really to try and articulate the things which are happening and the things that we're particularly proud of, so that hopefully sums it up. Thank you very much. Do we have any comments, questions, feedback? |
| 00:50:56 | Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Thank you for the report. Thank you very much for the report. I can't find it, but my notes I have written, in the executive summary, this has required more creative ways of working |
| 00:51:14 | and a cultural shift within the team, and that's what I had all the way through what I was reading. Yes, you've had cuts. Yes, funding's gone down. You've just found a way round it. You just carry it on. |
| 00:51:33 | And I think that's really commendable. I really do. I do have a question. I'll get to the question, but I just wanted to say a few other words, because I think it's important that we do let our officers know how we feel about their report |
| 00:51:49 | and how it's gone. I thought paragraph 105, a very powerful explanation of the areas that your work covers, and I've just got one question there, which is, what is detached work? And I think that comes up again on page 107. |
| 00:52:14 | And there you list Buckley, Munnidice, Hollywell, Troyden and Flint. I didn't quite understand what that was. I'm really pleased to see about the Duke of Edinburgh increase, I think that is absolutely commendable. I really do. |
| 00:52:31 | And along with married, I don't know if we were both there at the same time, I was at the Flint Pride event, and it was really... I learned so much in such a short time, and I've been banging my head |
| 00:52:46 | to remember the most important thing I learned, and I can't remember what it was. It was something to do with internet affecting young people, which is really heavily in the news at the moment. So, clearly, the pride in Flint was way ahead of the national news, |
| 00:53:05 | and I want to make that point. Thank you, Chair, for letting me have a speak. I hope I haven't said the wrong thing, and I would just like to understand what detached work is. Thank you, Councillor Mackie. That was lovely. I do query detached work myself, actually, |
| 00:53:20 | so that's very useful. Matt will explain. It's very timely that you've asked, actually, because detached youth work will become more of how we deliver youth work in the future. To have a building is fantastic. |
| 00:53:38 | To have a building that you can't afford is a real challenge, and what you've picked up on is a creativity around the staff. We're working really hard to develop our staff. Our staff are our assets. They can deliver youth work in any setting, wherever that may be. |
| 00:53:54 | Having a shining building is great, and it's positive, but actually it can become a hindrance. What we are looking at doing is how do we put more youth workers on the ground? we're not going to have a building in every community, |
| 00:54:11 | but what we do want is more of our communities to see our youth workers face to face, and that's where detached will come in. We are going through a process at the moment where we're exploring, and we're down the road of exploring, |
| 00:54:26 | different avenues for putting youth workers into communities that does not require a building. Some detached work can just be on the street, so that might be two youth workers walking the street, engaging with young people, talking to them, signposting and saying about the other offers that are on. |
| 00:54:42 | Other detached youth work may take the form of a vehicle that pulls up, has seating on it, is able to provide hot drinks, is able to be a bit more personal, is a safe space that young people can have a conversation out with the elements, |
| 00:54:58 | because the elements do have a drastic effect on numbers. We're delivering detached youth work, so youth workers on the street kind of fall at the moment, whilst we're in between buildings. If the weather's good, we get good engagement. Where we've had inclement weather, |
| 00:55:14 | we can be scratching around, not seeing anybody in an evening. the research tells us and our partners tell us across Wales where they do have vehicles, is that that drastically increases. But it also does as well. |
| 00:55:30 | It acts as a beacon for partners, so what we're not looking to do in all of our detached settings is go in and deliver on our own. What we are looking to do is deliver with other services, so that might be the police, it might be looking at something around antisocial behaviour, |
| 00:55:43 | but it might not be antisocial behaviour, it might just be rural isolation. So it is thinking about where don't we have a building and how do we get our youth workers into those areas. Could I just say, just in case you're looking, I did mention earlier on that I'm chair of a community centre |
| 00:56:03 | and we're very cheap. We will bear that in mind. Thank you, Councillor Mackay. Councillor Carolyn Preece online. I hope your voice is holding up. Thank you, Chair. |
| 00:56:21 | It is a little bit squeaky, but I'll do my best. Thank you, Matt. It's such a great report that the amount of work and progress you've made is unbelievable. So I just want to thank you for that. You've actually answered... |
| 00:56:41 | I had a list of questions which you'd have probably gone, oh, no, she's got all these questions, but you've answered all of them but one, and you've nearly answered that one as well. So I will ask it, hopefully. You can understand what I'm saying. |
| 00:56:57 | So you're operating within a reduced budget, but you're maintaining a really strong workforce. How sustainable is this situation, position? What risks are there to your frontline provision, particularly your universal youth service, if funding pressures continue, |
| 00:57:20 | if you're not able to access additional funding? Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Councillor Preece. There's probably two elements to that. One is that we're engaging quite extensively, really, with a range of non-traditional partners |
| 00:57:39 | to try and find additional funding. So using the third sector as an example is a great example where they lead on bids but for a mutual benefit. So we are submitting applications for further funding. So hopefully what you will see is that our grant funding increases |
| 00:57:57 | to give us a reasonable amount of stability. Sometimes it's only a year, sometimes it's three years, but I think for all of us, a year at the moment is as stable as maybe what it feels it will be. Obviously, if the cuts continue, there will be a point. And that's not to be alarmist because, like I said, |
| 00:58:20 | the staff are the assets in this. And what I do find is by working in quite open ways, and Councillor Madison has already said at the beginning is working with a community organisation, sometimes that can be a limited resource for us. So it may be expertise, it may be a worker. |
| 00:58:40 | There was an email that came in from another area yesterday from a CIC who were really keen to work with us. They're going through youth work qualifications and for us it reduces our burden in terms of what we need to put into an area. So there will be a point, but what we are also doing |
| 00:58:59 | is we will explore absolutely every single way to deploy a workforce and to grow a provision until there's a point that we can't. So there will be a breaking point, but we're not there yet. And I will argue the case for as long as I can that we should never get there. |
| 00:59:22 | Thank you. Councillor Fran Lister. Thank you. I'll argue that case with you. I really enjoy reading your reports, so thank you very much. And yeah, it's just so important, isn't it, to have enough for every child to be able to do something. And that's obviously what your service is striving to achieve. |
| 00:59:43 | When you were talking about the detached working, we've just heard from Guetta with their community hubs. And I was just wondering whether you already have youth workers in the leisure centres. And if you do, don't forget there are some leisure centres, particularly around my ward, that aren't run by Guetta. |
| 01:00:01 | And it would be brilliant to have youth work operating from there as well. Because linking in again, it was saying that Gen Zs are more likely to go to the gym than they are to go to the pub. Wouldn't it be brilliant to keep that momentum going and really engaging the youth now into that kind of, apparently it's a really addictive exercise. |
| 01:00:22 | But to get them going really at this age and have lots of youth work. And then, of course, because of my particular interest, do you work with Theatre Clwyd at all? And when you're collecting this report, which is brilliant and there's all the things that you offer, |
| 01:00:36 | is all of that provision free for the youth? And do you take into account all the other things that are done that are kind of connected to the council, like, for example, the Theatre Clwyd orchestras and choirs and things like that? And does that feed in at all to being able to say, |
| 01:00:53 | this is what we provide for the young people of Plinsha? Because it is really important and I've got two young children and the addiction of the screen is real and we need so many things to say to children that we don't just have to be... You don't just need to use up your one hour screen time every day. |
| 01:01:13 | That's not the be all and end all and there's so much else to be doing. Thank you very much for all the work you do. I do think it's really important. Oh, and that was the other thing. Volunteers, do you use volunteers? |
| 01:01:23 | Because I know there's lots of people in communities that want to get involved. And for youth service, that would be brilliant with the backdrop of diminishing grants and things like that. So is there an opportunity to grow that volunteer base? Yes, absolutely in terms of volunteers. |
| 01:01:44 | That is something which we've kind of moved into. There's still a little bit of work, probably as an authority, to do a bit more work around how we utilise volunteers. We've got quite a strong voluntary group who support us in Broughton. And that club is actually established |
| 01:02:02 | on the back of that volunteer action. And they're a massive help, actually, because they do a lot of the admin around the club. So that's been a huge help. Just in terms of some of those other groups, those wider groups, |
| 01:02:17 | we've actually developed a pilot. We've worked on it for a couple of years. But the members of staff go off on maternity leave. So there's another baby who's been born. So I have three members of staff on maternity leave at the moment. So I think somebody mentioned Destin. |
| 01:02:35 | That's hard to say. But the pilot does exactly that. So what we've looked at doing is a level one youth work award for other organisations working with young people. So what we don't do is we don't profess to be the experts with all young people. |
| 01:02:52 | We will know who we work with and we'll be able to signpost. But the biggest thing, and the story that I'll always tell, is that if, say, football clubs, orchestra groups, there'll be a relationship between the instructor, the coach, whoever it may be, and the young people. And that relationship, and that's what youth work is based on, |
| 01:03:11 | is that relationship. But it'll be a trusted adult. And when a young person experiences something, they will express that, hopefully, to that trusted adult. And it's the skill and the ability of that trusted adult to be able to offer the right advice at the right time. |
| 01:03:26 | That could be around homelessness, education, it could be around relationships. It could be anything personal or important to that person at that time. And if that coach doesn't give the right information or misses some of the signs, from a safeguarded point of view, |
| 01:03:43 | you'd hope everything is taken care of and that should be a given. But there may be something that's missed, and it's about not missing those opportunities to engage with that young person and to support that young person. And I think that is where we want to grow our level one qualification into other organisations, |
| 01:04:00 | not to make them a youth club or anything like that, but just to have a better understanding of youth work, where they can get further support from, but actually how they can have some of those conversations themselves, because they will undoubtedly have the skills. They'll be very experienced practitioners. |
| 01:04:16 | And it's free. Yeah, and it's free. It's all free. Could I add as well that I'm a trustee on the Theatre Chloe Music Trust in terms of that music service delivery, and in our meetings we're always looking for opportunities |
| 01:04:32 | obviously to connect the Theatre Chloe Music Trust obviously with things like Youth Service, with our School Improvement Service, because at the end of the day what we're trying to do is wrap a whole range of opportunities around our young people. And we work closely with the theatre |
| 01:04:44 | in terms of supporting many of our youngsters who are very vulnerable as well. No further committee. I don't see any committee members wishing to... Oh, Councillor Gladys Healy. Thank you, Chair. |
| 01:05:04 | I just want to thank you on this report, an excellent report. And I would like to thank you for having the Forest School at Oscar Leston in Hope. It is excellent. My question is, does the schools give you a bit of funding |
| 01:05:23 | when you put something up for them? Yes, so they do with our play team, but not with our Youth Service. Do you want to mention some other work with the play team? There has been, with our Forest School, there has been, |
| 01:05:52 | and I say a lot of the time, it's been through internal funding, so where we view Shared Prosperity Fund, we've been able to utilise that in the last couple of years. That's been a real challenge because Shared Prosperity Fund |
| 01:06:04 | comes to an end in a couple of days, so that will be a huge loss for us. And we've lost a member of staff on the back of that as well, so that has been quite challenging because it's those discrete funding grants which are changed by Welsh governments |
| 01:06:22 | which have a direct impact. So as much lobbying as we did to try and dissuade the ministers with that decision. That's not political. Don't say any more. I think one of the aims of the play team as well |
| 01:06:46 | is to develop programmes that schools can purchase. Do you want to say anything about that at this point? We talked at the beginning of the meeting about the recognition of the play team. Well, it is this kind of innovative activity that has been developed by Darren and the team, |
| 01:07:02 | but obviously it is being recognised and the fact that they are working very closely with schools to support schools in terms of their priorities as well. Yeah, so phonics would be an area. So engaging with children around their phonics, their development, but also with parents |
| 01:07:20 | and about how parents interact and encourage their children to read, to speak, to sound out words. So there's lots of programmes and expertise really with our own teams and they're able to capitalise on that. So for the play team, |
| 01:07:37 | it's been a bit of a diversify really from where they used to be. So traditionally it's very much focused on open access and this is, I suppose, for all our teams, it's a way of how do we operate in the future. But for the play team, they've been able to income generate on some of those programmes |
| 01:07:54 | with the expertise that they have, but then that funds their open access provision, so they're free at the point of access provision in the holidays. We now have pretty much 52 weeks of the year there's play provision on. It used to be for six weeks in the summer, |
| 01:08:10 | so we've massively grown that. The youth service are following suit, so we're not charging, but holiday periods become now more focused on programmes and interventions on the back of the term time work. So there's a lot more focus really on operating |
| 01:08:28 | for as many weeks of the year as what we can. And we do have youth workers based in schools? Yes, there are youth workers based in schools, in secondary schools. I have no further committee members wishing to speak, although I wish to say something briefly, |
| 01:08:48 | but Councillor Coggins-Cogan, you have requested to ask questions today, and I will need to call a break within five minutes. Do you have a question? Thank you, Chair. I tried to previously notify you. My question's already been answered, so I got everything. |
| 01:09:03 | Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much for that. Thank you for sitting with such great patients, an example to all of us. There are so many examples of good practice in the report. I just wanted to pick out something particularly dear to my heart, |
| 01:09:20 | which is on page 111, the Athena and Goliath programmes. Recognised as good practice, and won an award in 2025 for its education in support of reducing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. |
| 01:09:39 | Some of you will have seen on the news a few days ago, that Professor Jess Phillips, the Minister for Safeguarding Violence Towards Women, read out 110 names of women, aged from 17 to 98, who've been murdered through violence in the last year. |
| 01:09:56 | The purpose of this is so that their names are recorded in Hansard forever, but some of them were quite simply listed as unnamed. At the same time, the Femicide Census, which was in the news recently, has actually reported an increase in the number of parents |
| 01:10:16 | who've been killed by their own children. I'm sure that many of you noticed yesterday the sentencing at Mole Crown Court of a tragic case of a matricide, an 18-year-old who killed his mother, which I think is why these programmes are so immensely important. |
| 01:10:36 | I did have a quick question, which doesn't have to be answered today. I'm intrigued in knowing what the Little Blackbird Partnership is, on page 116, Yes, I can briefly update. So, each year we deliver |
| 01:10:57 | to every year nine learner experiences... There's a programme, but I won't mind. So, they go through a programme called Consent. So, what we wanted to do is develop a cost-effective way of doing that, really, because in the past that's been quite a costly exercise |
| 01:11:24 | by working in the way that we were working with it. So, we've reduced the cost. We work with Little Blackbird. They're an organisation who are experienced in providing a kind of form of theatre, really. So, it's very interactive. |
| 01:11:36 | It's a workshop. The young people experience the workshop. They'll see consent in action, really, what it means. It brings it to life. And then, with the youth work element, |
| 01:11:48 | that really explores what consent means, how you can get yourself into trouble with it, where young people are, but also a duty of care, because, obviously, that can be quite triggering. For some people, if they've been involved |
| 01:12:00 | in some of the aspects that are covered through that programme, so then the youth workers are able to triage that, really, and to work through some of those issues with the young people. What I will say is, though, that on the back of that work with Little Blackbird in the last couple of years, |
| 01:12:15 | so we're two years into that programme now, we want to develop that partnership, because it works really well for us, but that's where Athena and Goliath came from. It was from the views of young males who were experiencing that consent programme at year nine, |
| 01:12:30 | which was extremely worrying. We knew then, as a service, we needed to put an intervention in place, which was our Goliath programme, our Athena was for young females. Thank you. That's very interesting. |
| 01:12:43 | Social media certainly is in the news at the moment, isn't it? I expect we've all watched Adolescence and read about the case in the USA yesterday and the addictive nature of social media. We're going to move to the recommendations on page 100 now. There are four recommendations. |
| 01:13:03 | I would like to take them in block. I would like to take them together. Do I have a proposer? Councillor Lister, thank you. Do we have a seconder? Councillor Shawcross, thank you. |
| 01:13:16 | All those in favour of the four recommendations? Unanimous, thank you very much. No against, no abstention. Thank you very much for a very interesting report. Now then, bang on four o'clock. Tea time. We're going to take a ten-minute comfort break |
| 01:13:34 | during which we're going to have a look at the agenda and what remains on it. Thank you very much. The agenda about a bit in consultation with the officers. Bearing in mind, we have a couple of guest speakers as well. We have two hours and 15 minutes until we vacate the room and we can do this, folks. |
| 01:13:52 | Together we can do this. The next item we're taking at request of the Chief Officer for Education and Youth is number eight. School admissions arrangements 2027 to 2028. This is on page 59 of your packs. I'm going to hand over to the Chief Officer. |
| 01:14:19 | And you'll notice I'm on my own today. I have apologies from Jenny Williams, the manager within whom the admissions service sits. The reason I'm asking for this report to come forward is because there is a statutory deadline in terms of reporting on the consultation exercise |
| 01:14:34 | that we undertake on an annual basis. The report is to focus on that statutory consultation exercise relating to the admissions arrangements for 2027 to 2028. I won't spend too much time going through the report. I hope it has been self-explanatory. It is a report we bring every year to this committee. |
| 01:14:57 | As it says in 101 of the report, in accordance with the school admissions code, the council is required to undertake an annual statutory consultation exercise regarding its admission arrangements for the subsequent academic year. That has to be concluded by the 1st of March so that final admission arrangements are formally determined by 15 April. |
| 01:15:21 | As it says there, the consultation is comprehensive and looks at all aspects of the admissions framework. That covers the admissions arrangements for schools, the oversubscription criteria, the statutory timetable for admissions cycle, the published admission numbers for schools. |
| 01:15:39 | As you can see, we are required to engage with a range of statutory consultees around this process. There are a number of appendices attached to the report which detail in greater depth those admissions arrangements and the proposed primary and secondary admission numbers. Just to assure the committee, |
| 01:16:00 | the formal consultation period for 2027 to 2028 began on 5 January 2026 and concluded on 30 January. The local authority only received one formal comment in relation to the admission arrangements and that was from the Catholic Diocese of Wrexham who provided an interim response noting that VA schools |
| 01:16:23 | were unable to offer any comments on the proposed admissions arrangements because at that point we were in a process considering the future of some of our schools in the Catholic estate. As a result of that consultation and no other input from statutory partners, the underlying principles for school place allocation are unchanged. |
| 01:16:46 | As you can see in 104, the proposed timetable has been developed and we do that with our neighbouring authorities to ensure regional consistency. It also then provides parents with adequate time to do their research in terms of those national offer dates. |
| 01:17:04 | You can see secondary sector will be announced on 1 March and the primary sector admissions outcomes on 16 April. Another part of this consultation process engages our headteachers. They are invited to report on any significant changes to their school's accommodation |
| 01:17:24 | that might mean that we would need to review their published admissions number. That is making sure that we remain aligned with the capacity assessments that we need to undertake within our schools based on Welsh Government guidance. I can report to the committee that there were no formal requests from any schools to reassess their school capacity |
| 01:17:43 | or to amend their admission numbers. Therefore, the planned admission numbers for our schools are detailed in those appendices and have not changed. I think the report highlights to you some of the other significant work that is undertaken by the admissions team under the statutory admissions processes. |
| 01:18:04 | A major part of that is managing school appeals processes where some schools are oversubscribed. I know as part of our discussions within this committee we've spent a lot of time talking about falling pupil numbers, but there are some schools where there is a high degree of parental preference requests. |
| 01:18:24 | When requests exceed the number of places available, then we have to follow a statutory process around school appeals. You have some information there at 107 around that particular process. As it says there, oversubscription generally at the moment is a secondary phase issue. That is coming about because of parental preferences |
| 01:18:46 | but also some other demographic trends on the effect of local housing growth in some areas of the authority. Another major piece of work that engages the team is when families for a variety of reasons seek to make a change of school placement during the school year. We refer to that as mid-year transfer. |
| 01:19:05 | As you can see in 108 of the report, the team are processing a significant volume of those applications which come through for a variety of reasons. There is some information provided to members in the report. I'm not sure that there's much more I want to highlight in the report. I'm more than happy to take any questions, |
| 01:19:26 | but you're obviously noticing that this report is focusing on that statutory consultation process. Do we have anybody who wishes to speak? Councillor Lister was first. Thank you. Thank you. It's a question that came to me as you were speaking. You talked about capacity and admission numbers. |
| 01:19:53 | What do we work out a capacity on? Is it the building size? I'm just very aware, and it's actually come up through the governor's meetings and other conversations with staff, that staff have reduced because of budget pressures and everything else and falling pupil numbers. |
| 01:20:08 | Do headteachers then get to feed in and say, actually, we have reduced now, we've had to put years one and two together. That means we only now have 15 for each year group. I need this information for in-year transfers, if that makes sense. At the beginning of the year, the headteachers plan their offer and which classes are going together. |
| 01:20:35 | Does that capacity then immediately get changed at your end so that when an in-year admission comes and says, I want to join year two at this school, but actually the structure has changed? Do you know what I'm saying? I'm noting that I'm not the expert and if Jenny was here, |
| 01:20:53 | she would probably answer this question far more eloquently than I can. The capacity is actually based on the size of the building and there is a standard mechanism for measuring the capacity based on the floor footage of the area. We review those capacity assessments regularly. What I think you're also referring to then is when people are moving in and out, |
| 01:21:16 | we've also got them the planned admission number. Every school has a planned admission number. If their numbers are not in excess of their planned admission number and a parent wishes to make a... I'm talking about the local authority maintained schools here where we manage the admissions. |
| 01:21:35 | Obviously, if they haven't reached their PAN, then there is space for that parent to express that preference so they should be able to be awarded that particular place. So, if coming up to September, the primary schools have their admission numbers for September and just let's say potentially there are 14 students in year one |
| 01:21:59 | and 15 students in year two. In that case, we need one member of staff for that year group. That year group is there or those two year groups are probably full or maybe with one surplus place. Can the school then come back to you and say, we've changed our staffing structure, |
| 01:22:15 | so although last year our admissions number was a bit bigger, we can't actually take any more now because we put two classes together? No, because I think it's worked on the planned admission number. The only other constrict that we have is that we have a Welsh Government restriction on infant class sizes. An infant class size can't exceed 30. |
| 01:22:38 | Well, it can, but it needs another teacher. It's one teacher to 30 pupils. How classes are determined within a school really is an operational matter for the school in terms of how they group their numbers and how then they obviously match the staffing complements to that. |
| 01:22:55 | If you've got a particular query around a particular scenario, more than happy to have that conversation with you offline in the journey as well. The school has a set capacity. It has a planned admission number. That will mean numbers allocated per year group |
| 01:23:13 | to obviously reach that PAN. Then if they haven't reached their PAN, then there is a space. That can create some challenges. Yes, if a particular one-year group is full, and what their class configuration is. It then becomes a conversation around can we admit or can we not |
| 01:23:32 | because obviously whether we exceed the infant class size and what the arrangements are. As I say, I don't have the level of operational detail to probably say much more than that at this point in time. I'm more than happy to take your question and ask Jenny and the admissions team |
| 01:23:48 | to provide a more detailed answer and we could circulate it around the committee. I think it's an opportunity for that two-way conversation because schools are having to be very creative in how they staff their classes with reducing budgets. They're doing their absolute best to have the right staff |
| 01:24:10 | in front of the right number of pupils. It's very difficult when that landscape shifts. To be able to come back and say, we'd love to take that child, but we really can't, is that something that you can do anything about? That would be a local authority decision, not a school decision, |
| 01:24:25 | because we would be the admitting authority for a maintained school. I can assure you there is always dialogue with schools when those requests come in because the admissions team are monitoring the numbers in the year groups in every class, in every school, every day. If a request comes in for a place, |
| 01:24:42 | then obviously the first thing they're going to do is look at, has the school reached its PAN? Have particularly year groups reached their PAN? What's the school organisation? Are they easy to accommodate that? Then there is that conversation. |
| 01:24:57 | It's something that the team do on a daily basis. If it's a local authority maintained school, it is the local authority that then would direct the school because we're the admitting authority. We really appreciate how flexible our headteachers are, obviously. When you've set your class structure for the year, |
| 01:25:15 | and I had that often as a head, you then have to make adjustments. At the end of the day, parents are able to express a preference. We want our children educated in their communities, don't we? Thank you. Anybody else wish to ask questions? Who was first? |
| 01:25:37 | Sorry, Councillor Mackay. Thank you, Chair. I'll be very brief. I was pleased to see at 1.06, I was pleased to read, admission arrangements have remained consistent since 2003. So, clearly, not a lot we can say about this. |
| 01:25:54 | It's been well and truly tested. But I would like to say, on page 97, and I believe I'm right, but we do have a member of the committee who can correct me if I'm wrong, there's a table there which refers to Roman Catholic. My understanding is that that is now referred to as Catholic. |
| 01:26:15 | Wendy White could tell me whether I'm right or wrong. Thank you, Wendy. Yes, that's correct. We're now Catholic. That's it. Thanks very much, Councillor Mackay. Arose by any other name and so forth. Councillor Dave Healy. |
| 01:26:40 | Thank you very much, Chair. I'd like to flag up a potential risk that is not evident in this report, and there's no way it would be, but it is related to school admissions. And that is the impact |
| 01:27:03 | which our previous budget cuts are having on schools. Their standard number for admission may remain the same. I'm referring in particular to secondary schools, and I think we are developing a potential crisis in accommodation, and that stems from the fact |
| 01:27:33 | that with us having cut budgets in the past, schools are having to have larger class sizes. So, this adds a new dimension to a secondary school's problem with regard to timetabling, because some of our existing buildings only have classrooms of a certain size. |
| 01:28:01 | I'm glad to see you nodding, Chief Office, so you're in agreement. So, in the past, I actually did do the school timetable for a secondary school, and admittedly, you've got all sorts of computer technology now to help you, but nevertheless, in addition to slotting a class in |
| 01:28:24 | for a particular subject on a particular day with a particular teacher in a particular room, catering for part-time teachers to make sure you don't split classes between one teacher and all the rest of it, you've now got the dilemma that if you say, for example, |
| 01:28:41 | that you've used your form entry from eight form entry to seven, thereby increasing the size of the classes that are being admitted, then some of them will be too big to actually fit in a room, in certain rooms in the school. You may be able to get the pupils in, the students in, if they're standing up, |
| 01:29:08 | but you can't get the desks and the chairs in some of the schools, in some of the rooms that we've got. So, we do have a situation where some teachers are almost praying, I hope somebody is off today so that I can fit them all in the room. And if that is what is happening at the moment, |
| 01:29:33 | then unless there is more funding injected into schools to relieve this pressure and to allow, for example, a second form entry to go back to an eight form entry in the future, then it's going to intensify, the problem will intensify, because you'll have no other cohort coming in by way of admissions, |
| 01:29:58 | and that will further create no end of hassle for the timetabling issue and putting them in different rooms, unless you're going to stick a load of prefabricated buildings, which we've tried to get rid of in the past. So, we've got a situation emerging, which is unsustainable from the point of view of some secondary schools, |
| 01:30:26 | unless we can somehow reverse what is going on at the moment. Needless to say, I'm stating, not only should there be no further budget cuts in the future to what we give to schools, but we've got to go all out to reverse what we have done, because a situation is emerging there, |
| 01:30:50 | in spite of falling roads, that is a potential accommodation crisis. Thank you. I think the Chief Officer wants to take that. Bearing in mind we're in the pre-election period, I'll be very careful. I absolutely hear what you're saying, and you know that I will not have a magic wand to solve that particular issue. |
| 01:31:18 | Obviously, we know we've got the issue of the falling demography overall, and we know that is heading more through into the secondary sector now, and we do appreciate that because of the financial landscape, schools are having to make difficult decisions in order to try and manage their funding. I do recognise that that is an operational dilemma |
| 01:31:37 | for our headteachers and those senior staff who are responsible for timetabling. I am aware that that can be particularly acute in the practical subjects, where under health and safety guidance, you can only have so many pupils in a design and technology classroom, We are constrained by the safety legislation around that as well. I think what I would say to you is that we work really closely with our schools. |
| 01:32:05 | The school modernisation team visits schools very regularly. They have regular conversations with individual headteachers. They are keeping an eye on how spaces are being used, whether that's creating any longer-term issues that we may then need to factor into our repairs and maintenance, our capital investment programmes, |
| 01:32:26 | or our broader and high-level strategic investment programmes through the Sustainable Learning Communities Fund. Obviously, we make significant use of it in the local authority. We are always working with our heads to try and keep our eye on where those emerging pressures might be. On the converse, many schools have got lots of empty spaces. |
| 01:32:48 | I can tell you that headteachers are very creative in the way that they fill those spaces to maximise opportunities for their learners, to support their learners. They've developed nurture spaces, booknucks, family spaces. They are very creative at using the space that is available. I do recognise that, particularly for our secondary schools, |
| 01:33:07 | that is challenging. All I can say is the relationship between the team and our heads is really positive. Our head will pick at them and say, I can see I'm going to start having a problem delivering this aspect. Is there anything we can do? |
| 01:33:20 | Then we start to look at, if that's going to be a long-term problem, then we need to start planning for that strategically. Does that help, Councillor Healy? There are no easy answers. I think the key is the quality of the dialogue between the headteacher and obviously the team, |
| 01:33:35 | keeping an eye on how things are developing and the impacts that it might have. Obviously, we're aware of the problem emerging. Thank you, Councillor Healy. I think we know that every single member of this committee is the post to further cuts in the education budget. |
| 01:33:58 | Councillor Preece, you did have your hand up, but I don't see it up now. Did you wish to speak? Thank you, Chair. Most of the question was being asked by Councillor Healy. There was possibly another little bit to it, |
| 01:34:13 | but I think I'll email Claire about it instead. Thanks very much. Okay, thank you. I'm sorry for your poor voice. Diolch yn fawr, Chair. I'd like to refer the Cabinet Member for Education, etc, |
| 01:34:35 | to page 60 of the pack. The last sentence in that paragraph, indeed the last phrase, and for her to confirm, for anyone who is listening, that the words which is due for determination later in March 2026 will not take place freely. |
| 01:35:01 | That's a graphic of that. Yes, events have overtaken us and as we're all aware, that decision was deferred and the consultation process will start again in May 26. That is no longer correct. Events have moved on. |
| 01:35:31 | I apologise, Chair. We should have picked up that when we did the final proofread to bring the report to this committee. It goes through a number of processes, doesn't it? We should have picked up that typographical error, so I do apologise. Noted, thank you. |
| 01:35:44 | That will read May 2026. Yes, thank you, Chair. Can I just... Before I go on to another possible typographical error, I'd like to just pick up on the reference to May 26 and whether that date refers to cabinet approval |
| 01:36:06 | for proceeding with a reconsultation or whether it refers to the reconsultation commencing, because two things might have separate dates. Secondly, what is the nature of repeating the consultation? Is it the whole process right from the beginning or does it relate to the statutory objection period? |
| 01:36:34 | I'd like an answer to that, please, and then I'll come on to my final point. If it's the intention of officers to bring a report as soon as practicable after May, after the May election, at which point they'll be seeking approval for cabinet to commence consultation again, and that will be starting from day one, not from the objections. |
| 01:36:59 | Thank you, Cabinet Member. My final question then is on page 69, where it refers to the admissions timetable. I'm just trying to find, I'm not sure I've got the right page number there. Page 69, it refers to the admissions timetable 2026-27. Is that in fact correct and should it read 27-28? |
| 01:37:44 | It could be the second one. Yes, because the dates for the admissions timetable, the secondary, for example, is 1 September 26, but that's when the forms will be made available to parents. Presumably, we're looking at the year before. I assume that is incorrect and it should be 27-28. |
| 01:38:09 | For reception classes for 26-27, one imagines the closing date for receipt of completed forms was on or about 15 January 26. Give or take a few days for the difference in leap year or whatever. In which case, that suggests that the process is closed for September 26 admissions. |
| 01:38:37 | Again, I come back to the point what happens about Salteney. Is there going to be a completely empty... In a reception year, if the school does not close, bearing in mind that we're so close to September, it seems incredibly short notice. Bearing in mind the consultation process has to be gone through all over again. |
| 01:39:05 | It's almost going to be like not knowing whether they're going to stay open or closed. Until the last day, can you comment on that, please, cabinet member? I'm trying to keep track of academic years and admission dates and trying to remember what I said in response to the notice of motion. I thought that admissions had been made via the online portal for the oncoming academic year, |
| 01:39:38 | but without going back into my notes, I couldn't really rely. That's my recollection, which means that there are already pupils registered to go into Salteney St Anthony's. But basically, until a final decision is made, everything just carries on as nothing changes up until any final decision is made. |
| 01:40:09 | Thank you for that. Can you confirm that where it says on page 69, admissions timetable 26-27 is incorrect and should it be 27-28, or am I reading this incorrectly? Presumably, if parents have been under the impression or with the fear of closure, |
| 01:40:33 | then one imagines that there will be less parents applying for a school which is under threat. If, as you say, the school stays open until a decision is made, that is a correct statement, what notice or advice or guidance is being given to parents to say, actually, the school is open, it's staying open until a decision is made, |
| 01:41:01 | and therefore, if you want to apply to that school, please do so. Otherwise, the closure based on numbers is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'll go back to my comment at the beginning of the meeting to say that we've already confirmed that we'll send another letter to the school to clarify and confirm the position for them. |
| 01:41:30 | Councillor Parkhurst, do you have many more questions? Just a final point, please. I note the communication will go to the school, and that is good. The other communications about this process have gone to the public via press releases. |
| 01:41:48 | Can you communicate, please, in the same way via press release and on the council's own Facebook page that this is the situation so parents in the widest possible reach will understand that the school is open until it closes and they are welcome to apply for their children to be educated there. Happy to confirm that we will communicate widely. |
| 01:42:15 | Okay, thank you. I have no more speakers. We have nobody else wishing to speak. Bearing in mind the couple of typos and so forth, can we move to the recommendation on page 59? It might be worth noting that the committee can't approve. |
| 01:42:37 | It's for the cabinet to approve. The recommendation should read, support the proposed admissions arrangements, or was that in effect rather than approve? Just for clarity, Chair, what the committee are. If someone moves that. |
| 01:42:52 | Is that okay? The recommendation is the Education, Youth and Culture Overview and Scrutiny Committee supports the proposed admission arrangements for 2027-2028. Do I have a proposal? Councillor Crease, Councillor Mackay seconds. |
| 01:43:10 | Can we have a vote? Those in favour? That was unanimous. Thank you very much. We are expecting noweth for item 10, but we have emailed them and they haven't arrived as yet. |
| 01:43:35 | What have they? If you can give noweth a call. It's a bit more noticed. Yes, they can come along now then. We're giving noweth a call to come along. In the meantime, we're going to move on to item 7, |
| 01:44:05 | Adult Community Learning. This is going to be presented by the Chief Officer, page 51 on your packs. Adult and Community Learning within the North East Wales Adult ACL Partnership. This is going to be presented by the Chief Officer for Education and Youth. |
| 01:44:30 | Is it Vicky who is here to present it? Vicky Barlow isn't here to present it. Claire has got quite a workload this afternoon. She may have to be presenting another item because Jen Morris hasn't been here as well. Thank you very much, Claire. |
| 01:44:47 | I hope members have enjoyed reading this particular report, which we also presented to the Governance and Audit Committee yesterday because it is a statutory inspection and the outcomes of statutory inspections are reported to both this scrutiny committee and the Governance and Audit Committee. Under the Estyn framework, |
| 01:45:05 | the provision of adult community learning is part of the inspection process. This report is to provide members with an update on the Estyn inspection of the North East Wales Adult Community Learning Partnership that took place in November 2025. Our adult learning in Flintshire is delivered in partnership |
| 01:45:25 | with Wrexham County Borough Council. The partnership was previously inspected in May 2022, so they didn't leave us alone for too long before they came back in 2025. It is a very positive report because Estyn found the partnership, and there is a quotation there, from the report that the partnership is strong, mature and effective. |
| 01:45:47 | The inspection team found that a range of partners and providers that make up that partnership form a committed network that contributes to the work and strategic direction of the partnerships and that relationships are clearly defined, robust, transparent and accountable. In the report, Estyn also notes the nationally published learner outcomes data |
| 01:46:09 | and they note that our completion rates are strong and that they exceed national comparators across most subject areas and levels. As you know, Estyn will make a determination whether any provider of education or training needs any form of formal follow-up. That was not the case in relation to our adult community learning partnership. Obviously, they leave recommendations. |
| 01:46:33 | Even if you are the best deliverer in the world, they will always identify that there are things that can be improved. So, as we expected, there were a number of recommendations, a small number of recommendations, just three in fact, and those recommendations are listed at the end of the executive summary. Those recommendations were already identified |
| 01:46:52 | through the partnerships and self-evaluation processes. We were planning for improvement in those areas anyway. What I would like to bring to the attention of the committee is the fact that Estyn identified four spotlights of very effective practice. That is highly unusual to receive that number of spotlights. We were delighted that Estyn acknowledged |
| 01:47:16 | some of the really creative and innovative work being undertaken through the partnership with our partners. You can see them again listed there in the executive summary. They focused on how we engage families in the world of artificial intelligence, how we're using expressive arts to promote independent living skills, our family learning programmes, |
| 01:47:36 | again, very well regarded, and again, how we structure our self-evaluation as part of the adult community learning. Monitoring and evaluating processes. The purpose of Estyn highlighting those spotlights is that other providers who, of course, we all read each other's reports, |
| 01:47:54 | say, what are they doing in the local authority down the road? We learn from that. That's how the best practice is shared. We will be delighted that other local authorities will be looking to our partnership to acknowledge the positive things that they're doing. |
| 01:48:09 | It was a very interesting process, because all partnerships across Wales are community learning in different. Ours is certainly very unique, being a joint arrangement with Wrexham and the fact that we have that contracted arrangement |
| 01:48:23 | with a number of providers. We don't just rely on local ecologists, for example, as other local authorities do. Because we are unique, Estyn came in and said, your arrangements are unique. They came in at the beginning of the week, |
| 01:48:38 | almost as if they were trying to test, was our uniqueness a strength or was it a weakness? By the end of the week, they absolutely identified that it was a strength. I would like to pay particular tribute to Jochen Tincello, who is the partnership manager, who also acted as the nominee through that inspection process, |
| 01:48:59 | engaging with the team, and again to Vicky Barlow, who oversaw the management of that process during the week of inspection and has strategic responsibility for this service. We are delighted with the outcome. I think it can reassure this committee, hopefully, |
| 01:49:15 | and our communities in Flint and Wrexham, that we are really focused on that opportunity for lifelong learning and that we can support a variety of people within our community to develop their skills and particularly to give them those pathways. Often at the beginning, it's about building people's confidence if they haven't engaged in any learning opportunities |
| 01:49:35 | perhaps since they left school. Then it's how do we build their basic skills and their confidence with a view to developing that pathway for them, perhaps to move into more formalised qualifications that may enable them to return into the workplace, to become economically active, |
| 01:49:51 | to support their wellbeing. I think, again, the report highlights that that's been done successfully and is something we want to develop further. I think I probably said enough, Chair, if members have any particular questions. But, yes, we were very pleased with the outcome of this report. |
| 01:50:10 | Thank you, Chief Officer. This is another of the reports that was a pleasure to read, actually. If we can take comments now. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chief Officer. I was going to crack the joke. |
| 01:50:24 | It seems like we weren't talking about this yesterday, but you did mention the meeting yesterday. I'd just like to ask for further information on the bit in 109, which is the spotlights, the four spotlights that you did allude to, that are mentioned on page 55. |
| 01:50:46 | And I suppose my question is, how much of a big deal is this? With regard to local authority provision, is it usual to have that many spotlights? What is the significance of a spotlight? Is it something that Estim is celebrating |
| 01:51:06 | and passing it on to others, celebrating good practice, so that elsewhere they can learn from that, is for a good number to have in relation to other authorities? And maybe you might be able to clarify a little bit more about some of these spotlights that are here, if possible, because they do sound potentially interesting, |
| 01:51:34 | but there we go anyhow. Thank you, Councillor Healy. If Vicky was here, she'd probably be able to reel off the top of her head whether this is the most number of spotlights any local authority has had. I don't have that information, but I do know that four is exceptional. Many of you are governors, |
| 01:51:52 | and you will know that often from a school inspection perspective, if you get one or even two spotlights, you're really pleased. Because as you say, it is Estim recognising that what is being delivered is of very high quality, is having a positive impact on its target audience, and actually is worth sharing with other professionals in the field |
| 01:52:20 | to generate that thought, is that something we could do to improve our practice? That's why Estim used this spotlight model, because obviously they are visiting all the providers across Wales, they have that umbrella view, and they can see whether that is something that is really effective, |
| 01:52:39 | and then they use the report and those spotlights as a mechanism then for disseminating that good practice. And then what you find, because we do it as well, is when somebody has a spotlight on something, obviously the first thing you're going to do is read the report, you're trying to understand what that's about, |
| 01:52:53 | and then you'd probably like to pick up the phone and say, can I come and talk to you about that, can I come and see that? Because that's something we've got in our improvement priority, so learning from you would be really helpful. One of the parting shots from the inspection team was, prepare for your phone to be read hot, |
| 01:53:09 | because lots of people are going to want to come and see what you're doing. Does that answer your question, Councillor Healy? In terms of the real detail around the programmes, no, I don't have the details. Obviously, there are those descriptions in the Estyn report, which should be linked as an appendix, |
| 01:53:30 | but if you want any particular detail, I could certainly ask Vicky and Joe to pull something together for you and circulate it to the committee. I simply thought that the first one of engaging homes in the world is AI. It sounds incredibly interesting, and I just wished to have a bit more on that, that was all. |
| 01:53:59 | Councillor Healy, I'll ask Vicky for some more detail about what that programme is. I know AI is something that's very topical at the moment, isn't it? Both for us and the council in terms of our own policies and obviously its use, the benefits and the risks. Obviously, we may have an expert in the room. I can certainly ask Mrs Barlow to get you a little bit more detail |
| 01:54:24 | about what that programme is. Councillor Priest, maybe. I wouldn't go so far as to say I was an expert, but this particular project has been well received in schools and children and parents have been active, getting accustomed to coding, writing baseline computer code, |
| 01:54:44 | involving children and adults in understanding how that code can be used and manipulated, and to agree working with robotics as well. I believe there's an invite going out to anyone who would like to go along to some more of the sessions that are planned going forward this academic year. |
| 01:55:00 | If you get an opportunity, go and see it. It's fabulous stuff to see young people with a parent and all of a five-year-old. Thank you. Any more questions? Councillor Mackay, thank you. Thank you, Chair. |
| 01:55:22 | I was going to say, I wasn't sure if the Chief Officer had been looking at my notes. Or if we'd just been working together so long that we'd do the same thing without realising it. Yes, I would agree with you. This is a unique approach in Wales. |
| 01:55:38 | I've got it underlined on my notes. And also, the spotlights paragraph. Yeah, I picked that up as well. I wondered, actually, if the number of spotlights was actually the reason for it, it was connected with the first comment, |
| 01:55:56 | i.e. this is a unique approach in Wales. So, because it's a unique approach in Wales, they've got nothing to compare it with. It was all new to them. But I don't know. We should still celebrate it, and I do. |
| 01:56:09 | However, what I did write down here, which I don't think you saw, was that I was amazed how little I knew about this. I thought, what are they doing? So, I put a note down. What does this provision consist of? |
| 01:56:26 | Numbers of people involved, the location, the way these courses are delivered. Are they online? Are they face-to-face? Are they some other way? And I wondered if that might be something for a future report. Perhaps not. I don't know. It's just an idea. |
| 01:56:43 | I did, however, think that recommendation one was perhaps something we should have been doing anyway, because I always thought that evaluating impact of any training was something that people did anyway, particularly at an adult level. I know when I was involved in IT training, |
| 01:57:06 | evaluating the impact was so important. And also, recommendation two talks about progress from community provision to vacational or other skills, when in actual fact, at 101, some of the purposes of this provision |
| 01:57:27 | is for those who need a particular qualification or to secure employment or progress to the next stage of their career. So, that seemed to be why it was there. So, therefore, that seemed to be why people were taking the training. So, why aren't we actually capturing that data? |
| 01:57:52 | That was my other point. Thank you. No, as I say, I'm not the operational expert. We do capture data. The partnership does capture data. I think what Estin wants us to do is to keep refining our use of that data. And we'd identified that. This is a relatively young partnership. |
| 01:58:12 | The reason you're probably not well-cited on adult community learning is that for many, many years, I think we had an allocation of less than £2,000. We could do nothing with that. So, actually, we would give that funding to Colleg Cambria and ask them to use it to supplement. |
| 01:58:31 | But when Welsh Government recognised that the funding mechanism wasn't fair and undertook a review, we then became a beneficiary of far more funding, which was amazing for us because then we were able to think about how can we effectively use now the grant? Yes, thank you. |
| 01:58:51 | Let me just point it out to me into one. Yes, a significant amount of money now. And by pooling with Vexum as well, of course, that brings greater efficiency and reach. So, that's really only over the last few years that we have been able to develop the suite of programmes, |
| 01:59:09 | develop our partnerships, because we now have the funding to do so. So, the mechanisms around monitoring that progress, they are in place, I can assure you, the partnership board look at that data. But what, as I said to you before, |
| 01:59:24 | when people come into adult community learning for the first time, often it's their first experience for a very long time. And so, the early focus is on building their skills around and their confidence around often some quite basic things, basic literacy, basic numeracy. And actually, for some people in the community, |
| 01:59:43 | it's actually physically getting them into that space to engage socially with other people. And that's setting that baseline and working with those individuals is so important. But the aim then is to, yes, people are going to follow things that interest them, aren't they? |
| 01:59:58 | So, how is the offer reflective of what the local demand might be? But also, it's about how can we then make sure, as I said, that there are those pathways for people that want to progress, they may have a career aspiration for which they may need a GCSE in maths or English or something else, |
| 02:00:14 | that there are then those routes and that we can support them to transition then to the local further education providers who obviously are the experts and the providers of those kinds of courses. Because obviously, we're not going to duplicate that. There are things that the college deliver and are funded to deliver. |
| 02:00:32 | What we need to do is to ensure that we can support individuals to move into those programmes. And that's what the Eston team recognised, that that is now our next focus, is really looking at how we can encourage more people to make that step into those more formalised qualifications |
| 02:00:51 | and achieve those higher levels. And so, the recommendations were of no surprise to us, I can assure you. It's not that we weren't doing them, we were doing them. I think what Eston wants us to do and recognise now is that we need to move it on to the next level. |
| 02:01:05 | And that's what the partnership is focused on. Does that answer your question, Councillor Mackie? Let me just check. Was the link to the ACL website embedded in the report? Because actually, if you were to go on the North East Wales... Yeah, actually on their website. |
| 02:01:23 | If you want to know who are we, what do we do, where do they... And you will see it pop up often as well on social media, linked to our social media accounts. So, yeah, oh, there's this course in Coyote Park or there's this course in Grunhans or whatever. |
| 02:01:37 | So, I would recommend the website to you. And if it's not included in the document, which I can't see that it is... If you put that as an action for me, Steve, I will circulate the link to the Learning Partnership website and then obviously there's lots of information there. |
| 02:01:55 | Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Any further questions? Councillor Coggan's Coggan. Thank you, Chair. I don't have a question. It was just a brief comment. |
| 02:02:10 | I've often, obviously, lately been at loggerheads with the Cabinet Member for Education over various other policies. However, that doesn't preclude praise where it's due. This is a good report and the Estyn's findings are pretty welcomed. I can imagine that recommendation one and recommendation three |
| 02:02:34 | are essentially boilerplate ones that they always have there anyway and they are there to be sort of struck off of this. I can imagine even in Gwinev, they say, could do more with Welsh language. So, I just wanted to congratulate the Cabinet Member and the Chief Officer because it's obviously outstanding work, it is very good. |
| 02:02:52 | I don't know that much about this subject area but even I'm aware that having that many spotlights is impressive work. So, congratulations. Thank you, Chair. Can I pass... I'm not taking credit for this report, OK? This is Vicky as the strategic manager for this provision working very closely with Jo Jo'ncello. |
| 02:03:12 | Our colleagues in Wrexham, obviously Vicky's counterpart in Wrexham, is their representative, Rachel Southgate, and they work really, really well together. So, it's a brilliant example of partnership working but I really do welcome your comments and I will pass those on. Thank you very much indeed. |
| 02:03:29 | Thank you. Councillor Coggins-Cogan. Thank you, Chair. I mean, the Chief Officer just said it anyway but if the comments from, you know, nasty Coggins-Cogan can be passed on, that would be appreciated, you know. I will feel fewer voodoo dolls aimed in my direction. |
| 02:03:44 | Thank you very much. I'm sure that will happen. Thank you very much. Councillor Gladys Healy. Thank you, Chair. First, I want to say thank you. This, what I'm seeing here, I am very happy about. |
| 02:03:59 | I was one of those ladies who took the decision not to work, to look after my own children. By the time it came for me to think of, oh, they're big now, what am I going to do? Is, like, if you are a housewife and you stay at home with children, after a while you become a big brain dead |
| 02:04:24 | because all you know is children talk. Anyway, and I thought, what can I do? And I must say, Yale helped because there was courses. There wasn't this, I didn't know I could go to Flintshire or anywhere else. Yale helped and there was an open course that could take you into what you wanted to do |
| 02:04:51 | and that's how you get into nursing. It's like an open course. And I must say, not every woman wants to go and work or want to stay at home, or sometimes it is the financial problem as well. With me, I was lucky. |
| 02:05:09 | I could stay at home and see my kids grow and do activities with both of them and then go and do something for myself when my youngest was about 13. And then I went into nursing and I must say, when I read this and I hear about this and what is happening, it is extremely, |
| 02:05:31 | because there is adults out there who want to come back into the workplace, but they don't know, because even if you are a secretary, to come back, everything is changed. Computerised, AI, everything else. So I must say, this is something that Flintshire should always try and fund and help |
| 02:06:00 | and the Welsh Government, because it will help the workforce out there to come back into work. And it's a bit like apprenticeship. It's the same, more or less the same. And that's all. And I want to say, to take my thanks to Vicky Barlow |
| 02:06:18 | that she's done something so... It is fantastic, beautiful, and a lot of people out there will appreciate it. Thank you, Jane. Thank you, Councillor Healy, and I will pass those messages on. So just to draw your attention to 201 in the report, |
| 02:06:39 | so the funding for this programme comes now through the new organisation called MEDR, which is the body now that is responsible for post-16, further education colleges and universities. So the community learning grant comes directly to the local authority from MEDR, obviously with specific terms and conditions, |
| 02:07:02 | and that's the funding that we use. Obviously, we have to go through a process of providing our returns to MEDR in terms of how that funding has been spent. So just to let you know, that's where the funding comes from. Thank you. Councillor Shulcross. OK, thank you, Jane. |
| 02:07:19 | A couple of people have stolen my thunder, but I was wondering whether we could send an official thing to Vicky and her team just to recognise this good news. And just on that as well, in my time at Airbus, there was a young lad brushing up under the jigs there and he got talking to me one day and he wanted to better himself. |
| 02:07:36 | He'd had a poor... He'd been dealt a bad cardiac. Anyway, I pointed him in the direction of the college at Connors Quay there and he's a qualified electrician now and he works for AstraZeneca. But some people just need a little bit of a point in the right direction in life. They all need an equal goal, don't they? So, yeah, well, thanks very much. |
| 02:07:57 | Thank you. That will be noted. Any more speakers online? What I wanted to... The question I wanted to ask has been answered. I think that recommendation two is the important one. Improve learners' progress from community provision to vocational skills provision at higher levels. |
| 02:08:20 | Now, I came through the traditional route. O-levels, A-levels, university, masters, work. But I was later privileged to teach English for adults and the Access Course for Adults at Colleague Flandres Flow. And these are courses that help older people back into work. My students were absolutely wonderful. |
| 02:08:43 | I keep in touch with many of them now. I mean, many were willing going into work, but we've got chaps who've been out of school for 10 years and so forth who wanted to get back into education. And through the courses we taught, we got them onto things like A-level law, |
| 02:09:03 | BA in social work, apprenticeships in construction and plumbing, access to nursing, many, many others. They were absolutely wonderful students. I think the question I wanted to ask at this point really was |
| 02:09:18 | how far would... They knew what they wanted to do. They didn't need careers advice. They were very specific. I had one chap sit down in front of me one day and he said, I want to go to law school |
| 02:09:30 | and I want to go to King's College to read law. And he did. After a year, he was offered a place at King's College and read law. And he now practices at the Royal Courts of Justice. So they were very specific. I suppose I was asking here, |
| 02:09:43 | how closely would you work with the careers service to deliver recommendation to you? I can't answer that question off the top of my head, Councillor Madison, but I will take it away and I will get you a response. But yes, I mean, we need to... It's that balancing act, isn't it? |
| 02:10:01 | We need to know what our communities are saying in terms of what they think will interest them, what will get them through the door, what they feel they need. But also, we're mindful of all of the developments locally, all the economic developments that are going to be coming our way. |
| 02:10:20 | And we're thinking about that from the school's perspective as well. So that actually we are developing that local workforce who will have the right skills and qualifications to be able to take advantage of those amazing opportunities that we are going to see developing in our region. So yes, the partnership obviously is representative of a huge number of sectors. |
| 02:10:43 | So they will have sort of that market intelligence as well. But it is thinking about how we maximise the offer, not just to meet the needs of the people in front of us, but also to develop those pathways for the future. But I can certainly ask Vicky to provide you with a more detailed response to that question |
| 02:10:58 | if Mr Gudrum has written that down so I remember it. Thank you very much. I have no more questions. So can we move to the recommendations on page 52 of your PACs? We have two. To receive the findings of the Estyn Inspection of Adult Community Learning, to be assured that the partnership has planning in place |
| 02:11:24 | to respond to the three recommendations. I would like to add something about how we commend... Yeah, Councillor Healy. In place of receiving... Sorry. In place of receive the findings, the committee commends the findings of the Estyn Inspection. |
| 02:11:58 | So number one, we'll now read that this scrutiny committee commends the findings of the recent Estyn Inspection. Do we have a proposer for the recommendations? Seconder, Councillor Hodge. Vote in favour. Unanimous. Thank you very much for that. |
| 02:12:20 | Can I just make a procedural observation, Chair? I know you've alluded to this already about timing and just noting that we are now past 5pm. The Constitution does say that meetings do conclude at 5pm unless the Chair's discretion is for them to continue. May I propose, given earlier conversations that we've had, |
| 02:12:38 | that we've got Steve Jones from nowhere in the room presently for his item, which is item 10. If you take item 10, that will probably take us past 5.30, I'm assuming. It may be therefore worth, given the fact that the officers are unable to attend today for item 6, which will be the final agenda item for today. |
| 02:13:01 | And I note that the Chief Officer for Education has done a sterling job answering fielding questions for other reports. It may be worth deferring item 6 to a future committee, either the next one or thereabouts, to ensure that the appropriate officers can be present to field any technical questions. |
| 02:13:21 | Although Claire's done a sterling job of fielding questions, there may be lots of noting of issuing further information to the committee afterwards. It may be conducive to a concluding of the future meeting. But that's for yourself and the committee to sort of... Yeah, we have spoken. |
| 02:13:39 | Obviously, we do want to do now with now. That will leave us only with number 6, learner outcomes. Now, Vicky Barlow isn't here today. The Chief Officer has only told me she can only present this report. She can't really answer any operational questions on it, but she would be willing just to present it. |
| 02:14:00 | How does the committee feel about this, about deferring it, which I suppose would be to the main meeting? I'd like to see how we get on with Steve, assuming he's next, and then to make a decision based upon what time's remaining. Everybody happy with that? Shall we crack on and see what happens? |
| 02:14:23 | Right, we will crack on with that much-adjusted agenda, which now bears very little relation to reality. Item 10, now with catering, school meal provision on pages 153 of your packs, at which point I'm going to pass over to Steve Jones. Thank you, Chair, |
| 02:14:45 | and apologies for not getting in prior to the previous item. Thank you all for seeing me this afternoon. This report is an update on the now with school meals provision, just to identify that it's just on now with school meals, and there are other commercial catering providers in the area now. This report will not cover. |
| 02:15:11 | So, just going briefly through the report, there's various items on there. Just regarding the consultation into the healthy eating in schools regulations, I understand that's going to be made public. The new regulations are going to be made public next week, so we're going to get our first view of the actual regulations. |
| 02:15:34 | The timeline for implementation, they come into force on the 31st of October, 2026. So, we're still working within the current standards, but as a business, obviously, we've been highly involved in talks around the new recommendations. So, our current menu, which started September 2025, |
| 02:15:57 | does pick up a lot of the improvements that we know are coming with the new regulations. So, some of the things that we've included in our new menu, obviously, there's a strong focus on freshly made dishes, freshly made sandwiches and desserts in the schools. We're looking to work with as many Welsh suppliers as we possibly can. |
| 02:16:21 | We're working with current Welsh suppliers, to try and get more Welsh suppliers within their distribution network. The Welsh government are working with us a lot on that as well. And independents like Menton Morn and Lada Cymru are involved in North Wales for certain. Some of the key highlights that we've got there, |
| 02:16:45 | healthy options around whole-grain pasta, 50-50 bread, so Flintshire was the first authority to introduce 50-50 bread back in September for our sandwiches. And it's gone surprisingly well. The children are really happy with the 50-50 bread, so that's a positive. |
| 02:17:02 | Reduction in the number of processed items. Our fresh salad bar, we've had on now for coming up to two years, but that's been replicated across other authorities now. Red meat and sustainably caught fish is on once per week, only one deep-fried product, so there's various different things there in 103. |
| 02:17:26 | As a business now, we've continued to bring 14,000 meals per day, so there's obviously a lot of challenges that come with that. We now have an uptake of 71.8% of the children in schools taking school meals since the introduction of universal free school meals, so that's really, really positive. And we're getting to a lot more children than we ever were previously. |
| 02:17:52 | On top of the menu, we're looking at developing other initiatives and other things within the schools to encourage healthy eating and pupil engagement. So we're working with a lot of key partners. We work with Betsy Cadwallader. We're looking to work with Gwettler, |
| 02:18:08 | and we're working with other council departments as well. One of these is Eat Smart Save Better, so that's where we work with the dieticians at Betsy Cadwallader, and we provide cooking lessons for pupils and parents within a school setting. It's only three hours over three weeks, and they get a recipe book and some equipment |
| 02:18:32 | and some supplies at the end of that. We've managed to complete those sessions in 18 of our primary schools so far. In the secondary schools, we've done live kitchens, where we have a theatre chef, and we're getting them involved in seeing how we cook and how we bring things together. |
| 02:18:51 | Those have been very successful. Throughout November, we did taster days, so we offered free taster portions to children who don't currently take a meal, so currently bringing food in from home, or pupils who do take a meal but have never tried the other option on the menu. So they've been really successful. |
| 02:19:13 | We're looking to do that again in the summer term. We're looking at how we can link in with the curriculum, so either design a menu around the curriculum, or perhaps go to classrooms and explain to them how our menus are made, if that fits in with the curriculum. We don't do as many theme days as we used to do previously, |
| 02:19:35 | so if a school has a particular theme that they're doing currently, we can do a menu to fit in with that particular curriculum. Feedback and communication is very key for us, obviously, so we're trying to do as much feedback and communication as we possibly can. In the primary schools, we have the little boxes, how was your lunch, where the children drop the counters in. |
| 02:19:56 | We've got the Nowwith app, so there's an app now being created for the high schools, so we're trying to launch that in the high schools to get some feedback direct from the pupils themselves. We do lots of surveys with schools, with pupils, and learn from that as much as we possibly can. We've done a lot of work, as we've explained to yourselves previously, |
| 02:20:21 | with the Healthy Schools team, particularly around the high schools, where we've been holding regular updates and feedback sessions with the high schools around menu, menu choice, and other things around that. Sustainability and waste reduction. |
| 02:20:39 | As we said previously, we're trying to get as many Welsh products as we can to reduce food miles and support Welsh growers. Eat more, waste less was something that we ran last year, that we'll be running again this year, where we educated pupils around food choices and where the waste goes to and how we treat that waste. |
| 02:21:00 | That was really successful. As part of Wales Climate Week, we did a theme menu during that week, which was locally sourced items. Again, it involved some interactive learning with the pupils and our colleagues in Street Scene in the environmental department. Our kitchen equipment, so we've upgraded our kitchen equipment, |
| 02:21:25 | so we now have combination ovens in the majority of our cooking kitchens. They use 34% less electricity per annum than traditional cookers. Quality and monitoring. We regularly conduct unannounced visits on our kitchens to provide reassurance that our cooks are following the menus, are producing the food as we'd like it to be produced. |
| 02:21:54 | We continue to work on that. We also employ an external independent compliance company to go in and do spot checks with regards to the food safety element. We have the food safety inspections. The vast majority of our kitchens are five-star rated. We also employ our own compliance company |
| 02:22:17 | to go and check that in various different schools as we feel the need. Staff training and development is massive for us. We want to grow our own through our staff and structures. We're training a lot of our staff who come in at the catering assistant level, how to be cooks and how to move forward. Only recently we've appointed three catering assistants to cook positions. |
| 02:22:42 | That's really positive and that helps develop the individuals. We're constantly communicating with the schools. Newsletters, targeted social media. Our social media has improved massively over the last 12 months. We're looking to diversify the business because obviously we're under pressure from external commercial caterers. |
| 02:23:08 | If we lose some of our larger schools as a business, we want to bring in new income into the business. We're looking at various different areas. We're working with housing and community development on the cleaning side of the business. We're now regularly cleaning 35 HMO sites. |
| 02:23:31 | That was new to the business for 2025. We're doing some specialist cleaning and biohazard cleaning. We've also got a couple of quotations and one tender in for housing associations to look at cleaning and voids and those sorts of things with local housing associations. Just looking at resource implications. |
| 02:23:56 | Obviously, we're a large employer within Flintshire with over 360 employees. 93% of our employees are female and part-time living locally. We pride ourselves on giving those employment opportunities to local residents. They're our key asset and always will be. We are under pressure from external commercial caterers. You may be aware Molde Allen have taken the decision to go down that route. |
| 02:24:27 | They've got a new contract starting on 1st April with an external commercial catering provider. This puts pressure on our model, on the LATC model. Those public sector finances are going out of the public sector, out of Wales in many cases. It's something that we're keen to work against as best we possibly can. |
| 02:24:58 | The only other one I wanted to mention was as part of the review of regulations. We're currently looking into secondary school capital infrastructure. Welsh Government have asked all authorities within Wales to complete a scoping exercise with regards to what capital investment would be needed in order to increase the number of free school meals to secondary school pupils. |
| 02:25:25 | We're working with Welsh Government on that to get an idea of what the capital needed would be for that. I think that's everything, Chair. Happy to take questions. The purpose of the report is to update us. I did hear that the new regulations aren't in force yet. We don't know them and they won't come into force until October 2026. |
| 02:25:52 | Do we have any questions, comments? Thank you very much for this report. I really value the work that you're doing and particularly your emphasis on healthy meals. I do appreciate that you're balancing so many different things. On a previous occasion, when I think Steve Jones reported to us, |
| 02:26:19 | I asked about the distance for sourcing food and the dilemma between keeping carbon emissions down but nevertheless having variety and so forth. I do appreciate you're doing a great deal. You've got on your menus options for vegans, options for vegetarians. I'm going to throw a spanner in the works |
| 02:26:46 | and I'm going to make my wife give a moan and possibly have a go at me on the way home because I'm going to flag up the issue of gluten-free, of which I am, and I'm wondering if I were in one of your schools, would there be anything down for me? Because I can't eat 50-50 bread, I can't eat pasta, |
| 02:27:12 | I can't even eat a piece of Kit Kat that my wife has just offered me. So I've got a bit... Councillor Mackay would have had it. So I've got a bit of a dilemma. And nevertheless, I'm fussy and I like choice. So would there be anything down for me? |
| 02:27:33 | Because it's not evident on your menu that you've got there. Yeah, I'm pleased to say we have got a gluten-free menu. So an entire gluten-free menu. We also have a dairy-free menu. The way that it works, we have what's called a medically prescribed diets policy. |
| 02:27:53 | It's a joint policy between the council and ourselves. So if a child comes to school with an allergy or anything along those lines, they complete the medically controlled diet form, they won't tell us what the allergy is or the issue is. And then in your case, we would just put you straight onto our gluten-free menu diet. |
| 02:28:13 | So that's very similar to the normal diet, but with gluten-free products or a dairy-free menu. But we also deal with nut allergies and things like that, where we can bespoke, produce a menu, however, for items that they can take. So I'm pleased to say we would be able to feed you, Councillor Healy. |
| 02:28:37 | Thank you. Councillor Gladys, here you go. Thank you. Thank you for your report. My question is on portions. I have had complaints on portions because there is some children that eat a small portion and some they want a little bit bigger portion. |
| 02:28:59 | And parents have said they go home hungry. So how can you overcome this? You know what I mean? Hi. Yes, thank you for the question. And we've discussed this in this forum previously, haven't we? We have got some limitations over us with regards to portion sizes |
| 02:29:24 | in the current regulations. So, you know, Welsh Government have a portion size for a primary school and a portion size for a secondary school in the current regulations, although that primary school is a range. So I'll just read a couple out. Rice, for instance, is 35 gram to 56 gram. |
| 02:29:44 | So our cooks would give the smaller children something closer to 35 and the larger children something closer to 56. I do know, because it's a big issue not just for us, but for all Welsh caterers, as part of the new regulations, there are now going to be portion sizes for infants children, |
| 02:30:05 | junior children and secondary children. So they've listened to us and they've brought that into the regulations. I will say that one of the key drivers behind the new regulations is being pushed through Public Health Wales around the obesity crisis in Wales. So there is, you know, when we're not serving large portions, |
| 02:30:26 | there is a name that a healthy, nutritious portion is enough. And I think we're always going to get the My Child was Hungry when they came home from school. But hopefully, the new regulations, when we see them next week, because although we know pretty much what's going to be in it, we haven't got anything with regards to portion size, |
| 02:30:48 | actual weights of items. So once we see that next week, I'm hoping we'll have a better understanding and we'll be able to better feed the larger kids and the smaller kids. What worries me is, I'm a governor for a primary school and secondary, |
| 02:31:08 | is the waste. There is quite a lot of waste. So why do we have all this waste and then kids say the portions aren't big enough and they aren't eating enough? That worries me because I know there is quite a lot of waste |
| 02:31:25 | that is taken away. That's the dilemma, isn't it? We've got waste on one hand and complaints that portion sizes aren't large enough on the other hand. I think there's a little bit of, again, Welsh Government recommendations are you put everything on the plate. |
| 02:31:44 | So the recommendation is if the children don't want carrots, but put carrots on every week and after so many weeks, they'll try a carrot. We know a lot of those carrots might be going straight into the waste, but it's trying to educate and trying to encourage children to take those healthier options. |
| 02:32:03 | So we know that creates waste, but we're doing all we can to educate and take the children with us. I think the Taster Sessions that we did last year and we'll be doing again shortly, they were really interesting because that's where we realised that some children are having a burger but not eating the BAP |
| 02:32:20 | or vice versa in some situations. So that's how we need to try and build a menu. It's impossible to build a menu that everybody likes everything on it, but we're satisfying as many children as we possibly can. Councillor Dave Mackey. Thank you, Chair. |
| 02:32:41 | First of all, Steve, thank you very much indeed. There's a lot of good points in this report. Paragraphs 105, 106, 108 and 109, all positive. I congratulate you on that. Paragraph 107 is about waste reduction and I wouldn't mention this because it's already come up, |
| 02:33:03 | but I am going to mention it because what I've heard is that there is more waste because some children take a packed lunch with them and if they happen to fancy what's on the menu, because it's free, they'll go and eat that. Or they won't. |
| 02:33:24 | And that is what I'm told. Headteachers are telling me that is why we've got more waste. Which, you know, why not? Why? You can see it happening. Right, so I've said there's lots of good in this and when we go down into section two, |
| 02:33:47 | OK, things aren't all rosy. I just want to say something and this is personal, you can kick me for this if you want to. The law demands that when I'm taking decisions at hard and high, I must take the right decision for hard and high. When I'm taking decisions in the county council, |
| 02:34:06 | which is what I'm doing now, I must take the right decision for the county council. And I can tell everybody here that the decision we made at hard and high was made over a three-year period and was a very difficult decision. |
| 02:34:25 | But everybody there is happy with the change. What I wanted to say is you've got to fight them. And I'm now here, so I'm talking to you as a county councillor. Nothing to do with that. Find out what it is they don't like, |
| 02:34:55 | why they're going to change, and make sure that isn't a reason. That's the best thing I can say. Because if you've got lost two now, you don't want to lose any more. You want to get these two back. |
| 02:35:15 | And I think you can. And you can see what they're doing. You must know what they're doing and how they're doing it. It is very different. Yeah, I think that is the red warning. And you've got to go out there, I think, |
| 02:35:35 | and show that we can do better. You've no profit issue. You mentioned the profit in here. The fact that they take a profit as well, because they're a business. You don't have that, so you can do better, I think. |
| 02:35:51 | I'm sorry, that's a statement. And my mate here is telling me we shouldn't be making statements. What did you change? You said we made a change in Hardin High. Yeah, we did. We went to an outside catering. Oh, sorry, but you didn't actually say that. |
| 02:36:04 | You just said we made a change. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you, Councillor Murk. He is the... No, just to say that Councillor's right. And we worked with Hardin High |
| 02:36:19 | and we've worked recently with Mould Allen to understand what it is they want different. And it's very much the look and feel. At both schools, they said to us, it's not the food and it's not the staff. It's the way it's presented. |
| 02:36:30 | It's the way it looks and feels. It's the shiny bits. So we're doing a lot of work on that now, on presentation, on feel, and how we can improve the other schools. We're about to put an investment into Elvett High School |
| 02:36:47 | and bring that one up to standard. And as the money becomes available, we'll do that to the other high schools. So thank you. Councillor Fran Lister. I just wanted to reassure Councillor Healy |
| 02:37:06 | that the staff know the children really well, certainly in primary schools. I'm sure it is different in secondary schools. But we had an evening at my son's school and the catering staff were there to provide the meals for the parents |
| 02:37:18 | so we could go and see exactly what they ate. And when we went up, they knew every child by name. They said to my son, do you want the vegetarian? And he's told them he's vegetarian. So every day at school, he gets the vegetarian option, which is news to us. |
| 02:37:32 | But the staff knew... The staff know... And they were really... I think in primary schools, they get to know what the different dietary requirements are and what the preferences are for the very young children. |
| 02:37:50 | So thank you for that really. You can have vegetarian at home now. Yeah, I was at Sandycroft earlier this week and Auntie Julie is our cook there. She knew every single child's name. She knew every allergy or anything. |
| 02:38:09 | It's amazing to see, isn't it? 400-plus pupils in that school. Auntie Julie was there and everybody knew their names. Sarah and Sarah Granfield is exactly the same. I don't have any committee members appearing to wish to speak. I think Councillor... Oh, Councillor Healy. |
| 02:38:29 | Sorry, Councillor Corkin. I asked the schools like Mole Allen and Hardin School, them coming out of your catering service, does this make it more expensive for the other schools? Yes, in a word, it does. It makes it more expensive for us as a catering provider |
| 02:38:54 | to provide the service. When we manage to take the loss of Hardin High and not need to come back to the council for any additional funding or anything along those lines, we hope we'll be able to absorb the costs from Old Allen as well. We'll see later in the year whether or not we'll be able to do that. |
| 02:39:20 | I think the thing to be aware is that these large external catering companies are only interested in the large schools. If they come and take all the large schools, they certainly won't take the smaller schools who never ever make any profit or they would always be in deficit. That's what we've got to be aware of |
| 02:39:39 | and look to fight back, as Councillor Mackay said. Thank you, Steve. Just to say that I'm aware that the quality and the range of food in the last couple of years particularly has improved massively. Congratulations to you and your team. I think the biggest danger here is the sustainability of housing |
| 02:40:09 | if more large schools decide to leave. Clearly, you are aware of that. I'm just wondering if we can do more as a committee to understand the reasons. We hear from yourself what the reasons are, but we don't hear from the schools themselves. I think there's merit in hearing from the horse's mouth, |
| 02:40:34 | not to undermine you, but to just get that perspective. I'm just wondering if we could invite a representative from either Hardin or from Morrode Allen to this committee just to explain why they've made those choices. Maybe we get an opportunity to help support Steve in presenting a counter view. But if their concerns are genuine, |
| 02:41:00 | in the sense that the service hasn't been as good as they were expecting, then we can have honest conversations. We'll just help in that process in the spirit of being constructive, not to undermine you, as I say. I would suggest that as a possible action. I note that in paragraph 1.10 on page 159, |
| 02:41:23 | you mention income from other sources, other contracts. I think most of that seems to be focused on the cleaning contracts. There has been a debate in another forum about the acquisition costs of getting additional contracts in the outside world. I'm just wondering how many... |
| 02:41:50 | You mentioned buffets and specially designed menus. I'm wondering what the scale of that is and what the potential of that is as compared to the acquisition cost. Finally, you mentioned that you get feedback on the menus. I don't think we've seen that feedback. I think it'll be useful on a future occasion |
| 02:42:11 | to understand what the feedback is. The menus look attractive to my eyes, but I don't know how attractive they are to children's eyes. I think to have that feedback would be useful. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Do you want to say anything, Steve? |
| 02:42:30 | Thank you for the comments. We can share feedback, but we do share it on our social media. We can share something, I'll put it in a future report, some first-hand comments from the pupils themselves. With regards to acquisitions and new contracts, etc., we've completed a few tenders. |
| 02:42:55 | We're looking at various different areas. There's a small cost to us within the business, but nothing major at this moment. We haven't had to invest massively. As you mentioned, a lot of those there are cleaning, but we are looking into catering contracts, |
| 02:43:11 | perhaps on the Wirral or Chester, so when they come available to us, we will be submitting tender submissions to those as well. Again, we will take that on within the team, so there will be very little cost to us as a business. I think the Chief Officer wants to speak now. |
| 02:43:33 | Dale Cadair, just to reassure the committee, I have to say that we have done a huge amount of work through the Headteacher Federations in terms of discussing how we continue to improve the offer I would like to assure you that Steve does a lot of direct consultation with our Headteachers. |
| 02:43:53 | When some concerns have been raised, myself and the Chief Executive have met with a group of Headteachers and spoken first-hand. We shared that feedback with the Nowwith board. They accepted that in a really open and transparent way. I think some of the things that you are seeing in today's report |
| 02:44:08 | and the capacity that you've built within the Nowwith team now is as a result of having received some of that feedback. I think there has been a lot of proactive engagement to try that. Many of our primary schools in particular, the vast majority are with Nowwith. They want to stay with Nowwith and they are anxious |
| 02:44:29 | that if more secondary schools start to leave, then what does that mean for them? It is really important that collectively we work together. You work very closely with our Healthy Schools team. We've got the SNAP group having the school nutrition action group. If you're thinking of having a session of having some direct feedback |
| 02:44:48 | from schools that have made the decision to go out, possibly worth balancing it with schools that want to stay and what it is positive about the service that they feel they get. Potentially to hear from some of the young people as well. I think the input from the SNAP group has been really helpful in the development of the menus and things like that. |
| 02:45:07 | I think you could possibly have a good interactive session. I might want to take some advice whether that should be done as part two because some of that information I would suggest would be commercially sensitive. Agreed. Thank you very much. Councillor Richard Jones. It was only very quickly because I've listened to a few of these over the years |
| 02:45:31 | and you can tell there's an improvement. You can tell today just the improvement and the kind of things going on. Fresh-made dishes and desserts, Welsh suppliers, 50-50 bread, reduced to processed items, curriculum links, cooking lessons, reduction of waste of 228 kilos of food. I know, but you get the feeling, don't you, |
| 02:45:55 | that it's really an improved service. I've got to recognise as well that you're doing a lot of work behind the scenes just to get it right. There will always be the outside companies that want to take off the cream of the top. That's what we've got to try and avoid. That's the sustainability aspect of it. |
| 02:46:08 | That's what we need to try and get right. A lot of these conversations you're having will convince people that they don't need to go anywhere because you can provide the same level of service. I think that's the important message, isn't it? Thank you. Any more committee members wishing to speak? I just wanted to commend the fact on whichever page it was. |
| 02:46:35 | On page 159, I want to commend the fact that 93% of our employees are female. Obviously, as a former Trades Union representative, the fact that we are providing jobs for 360 employees and living locally to their place of work as well. I do agree with Councillor Parkhurst that it would be extremely useful if we could actually see some of the results of the surveys and consultations. |
| 02:47:06 | Maybe following further up, the next time we have an update, we could share some of that. I think Steve has noticed for the Forward Word programme, consultation with those schools who have decided to opt out. I know it's a choice, but I'm not particularly keen on seeing schools opting out for reasons that we've discussed. |
| 02:47:36 | As I understand, a couple of these organisations are based over the border. That means that the money is flowing out of Wales into England. I did look up one provider and they were based in... It was easy to remember because it's three Ws. Warrington, Wetherby and... Another W, I forgot. |
| 02:48:04 | Warrington, Wetherby and somewhere else. The point was that the three contact numbers were all in England. That is money going over the border. I have no idea if they employ our local people. I'm always for jobs for the locals. I have no idea if that food is cooked on site here in Wales |
| 02:48:29 | or transported from Warrington, Wetherby and Wellingborough. That was the other site as well. Good answer, yeah. I am actually concerned about that trend for financial and economic reasons, which I think is why we really... have to do what we can to get it right. |
| 02:48:59 | That's what I'm interested in, seeing the feedback from the surface. We'll move on to the recommendations on page 153. Members of the committee are updated. Obviously, we've not been updated on the change in regulations because those won't come out till next week |
| 02:49:21 | and will come into force in October. We will obviously have to wait for the next update from now. We formulate our conclusions and recommendations based on the information, the report and the discussion at the meeting. I think we've got all that, haven't we, Steve? Is there a proposer for the two recommendations? |
| 02:49:42 | Councillor Gladys Healer, do we have a seconder? Councillor Jason Shaw-Cross. All those in favour? Unanimous, thank you very much. No against or no abstentions. Thank you very much for your attendance, Steve, and your time. |
| 02:50:03 | I must say, actually, when I remember the ladies in those days, the ladies who slaved over the custard jugs and gravians at my two schools, were the ladies who made me the fine upstanding member of society remembered with gratefulness. Of course, the importance of cleaning service was greatly emphasised during Covid. |
| 02:50:27 | Thank you very much, Steve. Now then, we are in fact on the final item on the agenda, which is number six learner outcomes, and it's five to six. We can do it, but the Chief Officer has told me that she can only present this report and answer what questions she can. |
| 02:50:52 | She can't take operational questions. Your comments on this, whether or not you wish to defer it. I move that we defer it. I don't think we've got time to do it. It's putting unnecessary pressure on the Chief. She has worked very hard this afternoon, hasn't she? |
| 02:51:11 | The Chief Officer has been in the office since half past seven this morning. Do we need to vote on that or do we just do it? I move then that we will defer that item to our next meeting. However, the Chief Officer does wish to say something to you about the holiday hunger programme before we finish. Thank you for reminding me, Chair, |
| 02:51:34 | because I know this is something that is really important to the committee. Obviously, school Easter holidays start at the end of this week and of your commitment to support families with children entitled to free school meals. I would like to confirm to you under the arrangements that we have put in place, the benefits team have run all the reports required to make the necessary payments to the eligible families for the Easter holidays. |
| 02:52:00 | They should hit parents' bank accounts by 31 March. Just by way of a reminder, that's been based on the initial spend. If any money bounces back. The spend is nearly £81,000 to make the provision and that will touch 4,757 pupils during the Easter holidays. I wanted to reassure the committee that that work has been done |
| 02:52:24 | and those families will get the support that you have committed to provide. Thank you. Thank you, Chief Officer. Councillor Healy, I know you had your hand. Thank you. Before we pack up, can I just congratulate you, Chair, on the way in which you've handled this meeting because you've not had choice over the order of the items. |
| 02:52:47 | But I've not known a meeting where we've been bouncing around like nobody's business with regards to the agenda. My point in raising this is that those who schedule gender items have a mind to the importance of the item and put them maybe first, I don't know. |
| 02:53:10 | I understand where you got to exclude the press and that. That's probably going to be last, but we took it out of order anyway. But also, if offices are only going to be... Then perhaps that could be something that's taken into account. If there's going to be visitors that are likely to be here for a particular item, maybe that could be considered. |
| 02:53:36 | So, maybe, Chief Officer, you will sell me. They already do that. It's all in hand. But it wasn't evident today. It wasn't evident today. And maybe it applies to other committees as well, where we give some thought to a bit like the school timetable, really, |
| 02:53:54 | the other contingencies that have impact on it. I will take that question. Absolutely, we will look to... I apologise for the change in order at short notice and jumping around. So, I will take that back so we can look at... We are looking at how we structure the agendas for committees |
| 02:54:13 | to make sure that we do take that into account. Obviously, officer time, guest time, people who are watching need to make sure that they can follow. So, it's key that we do that. So, we will look back and make sure that happens going forward. Chair, if I may as well, |
| 02:54:27 | we were not necessarily anticipating that some key officers would be absent today. I can't legislate for ill health or notification of medical appointments, which nobody's going to miss in the current climates, are they? I'm afraid we did make it up as we went along, but we hope that we shared that with you in full consultation. Thank you all very much from the bottom of my heart |
| 02:54:49 | for your attendance, your patience, It was an excellent meeting. I wish you all a safe journey home. Great Aunt Gina is going home to gloat over videos of her great niece, Leonora. So, thank you very much. |
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