Committee
Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 22 May 2025
22 May 2025
Fran Lister
Committee appearance update.
Meeting Overview
This post covers my appearance at Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 22 May 2025.
Advocating for Transparent School Data
I recently challenged the current restrictions on school performance data during a committee meeting, as I believe that meaningful scrutiny requires clear evidence. Drawing on the Education Regulations 2018 and the Local Government Measure 2011, I argued that our role in holding services to account is underpinned by our right to access internal data for self-evaluation and improvement. While the Chief Officer expressed concerns about the risks of "league tables" and "game playing," there is a clear recognition that a lack of consistent, nationally agreed data sets can hinder our ability to be confident in educational standards. I will continue to push for this data to be included in our forward work programs, ensuring that our decision-making is always focused on securing the best possible outcomes for our learners.
Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
| Timestamp | Transcript |
|---|---|
| 00:00:00 | Okay. Councillor Lister please. Thank you. Thank you for the response about school data that we received by email. I can see that we, and the contact provided around the education regulations 2018. That said, the legislation clearly states that school governing bodies and local authorities retain access to their own data alongside national leather data to support self-evaluation and improvement. This suggests that such data internally remains both permitted and expected. So we also have a duty under the local government measure |
| 00:00:44 | 2011 which underpins our role in scrutiny and holding services to account and the well-being of future generations act 2015 which requires us to ensure that public services are improving. So I think that we could have access to some data and on the forward work program it would be helpful to have like sight of that data and to inform our decision making. I'm going to ask the Chief Officer Claire to reply. Thank you Councillor Lister. I think, I have been very clear in the committee that we are not in a position to be creating leap |
| 00:01:30 | tables of comparative data around school performance. There are other ways in which we provide this committee with assurance about the standards in our schools. The principal document being our annual self-evaluation report and of course all of our schools when they go through the inspection process with Eston have their reports published in that domain. We are bringing a report to you before the end of this academic year on the school performance monitoring group which again will go into more detail about how we support |
| 00:01:58 | particular schools where issues have been identified. So you know I have to reiterate what I have said before. We will not be bringing tables of comparing school X with school Y in this public arena. The data is there for school improvement purposes. I can assure the committee that obviously schools have their own data which they review as part of their self-evaluation processes. There are then those individual conversations at a school level. Obviously that information is shared with the government body. It will obviously feature in schools |
| 00:02:32 | information on performance will be shared by schools in their annual reports. There are conversations between the head teacher then and the school improvement advisors. Currently GWER obviously seem to be part of the local authority team and the purpose of that conversation then is to together identify that the schools are appropriately identifying the right priorities for their improvement and the role of the local authority then is to provide any additional support to enable them to achieve those improvement |
| 00:03:02 | priorities which obviously will all be focused on improving standards for learners. So I am confident that within the guidance we are using the data at the appropriate time in the appropriate environment and we have with the regional service held to the legislative guidance provided by the Welsh Government. So I am more than happy to have an individual meeting with any member of the committee who would like to explore that in more depth. As I did report at the last committee meeting Welsh Government are reconsidering the use of national data sets. |
| 00:03:38 | I mean let's remember data collection was suspended during COVID completely. We then had some interim measures at key stage four and they were interim. We are going through a process of national change in terms of GCSE examinations so the landscape is still quite challenging and the difficulty is you know we are not going to be comparing apples with apples and data any set of data is only a snapshot of a period of time and the school improvement guidance is very clear that schools you know need to look at a whole range of data and evidence in terms of determining you know |
| 00:04:15 | where a school strengths and areas for development are then and obviously and how they will prioritise those improvements going forward. So the Senate committee Children and Young People's Committee has undertaken a consultation to ask for views on the data landscape in Wales and I know it is something the Cabinet Secretary for Education is considering and again is discussing with cabinet members for education directors of education in terms of you know that national data set. I think there's all of acknowledgement that perhaps you know the reason the decision was |
| 00:04:48 | made to only use that data at a school level was because inevitably when there were league tables published then sadly in some quarters then there was game playing in terms of you know how qualifications were you know accessed or whatever you know that sea borderline issue and unfortunately for some learners that was not helpful in terms of ensuring that they secured the best outcome so that's where the decision was taken at the time but there has been I think a recognition over time that not having nationally agreed data sets doesn't help the Welsh Government at a national level it |
| 00:05:26 | doesn't help everybody within the system obviously to be confident about the standards of education you know either nationally regionally or locally so that conversation particularly now with the improvement models is live and we are hoping that we may get a steer from Welsh Government soon in terms of looking at what are the consistent national data sets that are available and then how they should be used so that that that is very much a live discussion at the moment. |
My Advocacy for School Funding and Prevention
In a recent committee meeting, I spoke out about the direct link between school budget cuts and the rising issues of pupil absence and exclusion. It is my firm belief that we cannot discuss attendance in isolation from the systematic underfunding schools have faced since the austerity years. When we cut budgets, we see the predictable consequences: reduced curriculum options, fewer staff, and larger classes where children lose the personal attention and kindness they need to thrive.
I argued that the current approach focuses too much on managing the consequences of disengagement rather than addressing the root causes. To move from a responsive system to a preventative one, I proposed two formal amendments to our recommendations:
- A Resource Impact Report: To clearly outline how current funding levels and curriculum breadth are affecting attendance and exclusions.
- A Long-Term Risk Strategy: To require the Cabinet to report on the financial "price of failure"—the rising costs of youth justice, social care, and alternative provision that occur when we fail to support children early on.
We cannot afford to continue underfunding the frontline and then act surprised when "downstream" costs spiralling out of control. It costs far more to fail a child than it does to support them properly from the start.
Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
| Timestamp | Transcript |
|---|---|
| 00:00:00 | Right, councillor Lister, please. Congratulations, Jeannette, because I know that the work you do has a real impact. I've seen firsthand, I know the work with inclusion is amazing and thank you. And my comments are kind of slightly removed from that at the bigger picture, because we have to stop talking about issues like attendance and exclusion with such disconnect from the budgetary pressures that schools are facing. |
| 00:00:25 | The problems outlined in this report, they're not new and they're not just a result of COVID either. The systematic underfunding of schools has began in the austerity years and it's just been made worse by three consecutive years of council cuts. And now we're seeing the predictable consequences. Reduced curriculum options, particularly in alternative provision, growing levels of exclusion, disengagement and persistent absence. |
| 00:00:52 | Schools are expected to manage these complex needs with far fewer staff and far fewer resources. Children are reduced to numbers in larger classes with limited personal attention. And we all know the children that struggle in school need time and they need kindness. And that's a real shortage in schools, the way that they are operating. And the result then is falling self-esteem, poor engagement and ultimately a higher risk of those pupils disconnecting from their education entirely. |
| 00:01:23 | And this report, as brilliant as some of the case studies are, it focuses entirely on managing the consequences, but attendance and exclusions are not consequences to manage. They are symptoms of a system that is unstrained and that the solutions need to be preventative and not just responsive. What's also missing from this report is any acknowledgement that we as a council have played a part in making things worse. Cuts to school budgets weren't made in isolation and they have consequences and these are consequences. The crisis in engagement, in behaviour and in attendance didn't just happen. |
| 00:02:01 | We helped create these conditions. It costs more to fail a child than it does to support them properly in the first place. And whether that cost comes through education out of school, youth justice or social care or long-term exclusion, it's a price that we're already paying and it's going to continue to rise until we sort this out. So I want to amend the recommendations. I want to add to the first recommendation that a future report outlining how resource levels, |
| 00:02:30 | curriculum breadth and school funding affects attendance and exclusions and what preventative strategies, including investment in teaching and learning, are needed to reduce disengagement. And then furthermore, a second recommendation that the cabinet be asked to consider and report a risk management strategy of the long-term financial consequences of underfunding schools, including the rising costs of education out of school, exclusion and youth disengagement. We can't afford to keep unfunding the front line and then acting surprised when everything downstream gets more expensive. |
| 00:03:04 | Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Lister. I think you might have to repeat the amendment or Kerry wasn't able to write it. |
Full Session
Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
| Timestamp | Transcript |
|---|---|
| 00:00:10 | Good afternoon members. Welcome to the Education, Youth and Culture and Scrutiny Committee. Members will see the first item on the agenda is the appointment of the chair. Members will be aware that at the annual meeting on Tuesday council resolved that the Labour group should nominate the chair of this committee and the committee is requested to note the duly nominated chair which is Councillor Theresa Carvey. Thank you. Good afternoon everyone. A warm welcome to all those present here or online to this meeting of the Education, Youth and Culture |
| 00:00:47 | Overview and Scrutiny Committee today on this the 22nd of May. For those watching the live stream my name is Theresa Carvey and it is indeed my pleasure to chair the meeting today. A warm welcome to our visitors and a warm welcome to those councillors who are observing. My thanks as always to the officers of the democratic services who so professionally and indeed helpfully facilitate this meeting and its proceedings. Due thanks are also given to the officers who have prepared and will present today's agenda items. A reminder to all that if you're |
| 00:01:23 | online please have your screen on unless experienced technical or bandwidth issues and all phones should now be on silent. Should anyone wish to speak please use the raised hand function if online or physically raise a hand if within the room. Those online are kindly asked to return to the mute settings after speaking and without further ado we'll begin the meeting. Oh sorry chair can we just pause a second. Sorry chair the meeting doesn't seem to be live streaming where it should be. Apologies we're going to have to adjourn for five |
| 00:02:33 | minutes while we sort out the live stream. Yeah. I'm going to move now on to agenda item two which is the appointment of the vice chair. Do we have any nominations for the position of vice chair please. Councillor Parkhurst. Yes chair it gives me great pleasure to nominate Councillor Caroline Preece. Caroline has been 19 years as a peer estin inspector 27 years in education. She's had scrutiny experience and she's an audit experience and she would be an excellent vice chair so I commend her to this committee. Thank you. Thank you kindly. Do we |
| 00:03:41 | have any other nominations. Oh sorry do we have a seconder for that. Thank you councillor McKill. Thank you chair may I please second that nomination. So do we have any other nominations please. Councillor McKill. Thank you chair. Could I nominate Councillor Gina Madison please. Councillor Shortcross. Right we have two nominations do we have any further nominations? No. So I will take them in alphabetical order. I'll hold vote we'll simply do a show of hands |
| 00:04:24 | if that's in agreement with everybody. So I will take councillor Madison first because I'm doing it in alphabetical order. All those in favour of councillor Madison please raise your hands. All those in favour of councillor Preece please show your hands. Right the vote has been taken and it's eight in favour of councillor Madison and three in favour of councillor Preece. So councillor Madison you are appointed as the vice chair of this committee. Thank you very much chair and as I've said before I do wish to pay tribute here for the sterling |
| 00:05:29 | work that councillor Preece has done in the past for this committee. I'm humbled and proud it's a great privilege to be vice chair of this committee because it represents three of the I feel the most important to me in the world education, youth and culture. I received an excellent education from the state. I went to an excellent youth club which was as a teenager in Birmingham which as we said kept all of us on the streets and it was the magnificent culture facilities of things like the public library service, Birmingham museum and art gallery in |
| 00:06:04 | Birmingham repertory theatre that I think made me what I am for better for worse. So thank you all very much. Thank you councillor Madison. Moving on to agenda item three, apologies. Do we have any apologies please Kerry? Thank you just one apology from our co-operative member Wendy White. Thank you very much and may I just take this opportunity to welcome back councillor Shaw to our committee. Thank you. So we move now on to agenda item four, declarations of interest and a reminder that these may be declared at any point during the meeting should members |
| 00:06:49 | realise that they've forgotten to say so. Do we have any declarations? No. Moving on to agenda item five, this is the minutes of our previous meeting. There is just one set of minutes to approve, those of the 7th of May. Might I remind you that the purpose of this item is to approve the minutes as a correct record therefore any comments should be around amendments to the minutes and not matters arising which will be covered in the next item as actions arising from the last meeting. So I'm going to take them one page at a time. They're to be found on pages five to eight |
| 00:07:29 | of your report. Page five, page six, oh sorry. Thank you chair. Item 67, if you go down to the bullet points under bullet point five there is a spelling mistake. It says contact instead of contracts. Thank you for pointing that out. Okay page seven, sorry councillor. Yeah thank you chair. I want to want to go back to page page seven regarding the school modernisation program, the update. I don't believe these minutes reflect accurately the discussion and debate and questions that were asked |
| 00:08:34 | at the last meeting. I know that anyone who's interested and has a time can view the video but these minutes should give a flavour of what was discussed, what actions were agreed and what information was outstanding. I won't go into the detail of that because as you know that comes under action tracking but I cannot agree to these minutes as they stand and I would propose that they are reconsidered and are represented at the next meeting. Thank you chair. Thank you. Just to be clear on the minutes we do not record any debate in the minutes in the new |
| 00:09:20 | format. The only thing we record are actions arising which are then shown on the action document. If it wasn't an action then it is not recorded in the minutes at all. Thank you chair. I understand that but there are actions which haven't been recorded so I think that these minutes don't reflect that and ought to be expanded to at least refer to actions. The detail of which I will come on to in the in the action tracking item. As we're on page seven now I think it would be more helpful if you could |
| 00:10:09 | state what you're not happy with. Councillor Parkhurst please. Well thank you chair. There are various outstanding questions which were to be answered after the meeting. You know for example when would the consultation date commence? At which scrutiny meeting was the school modernisation programme last discussed? There is no reference in the action tracking to advising the file rating and life expectancy of this school. There is no reference to the fact that the proposals came from a DASIS |
| 00:10:58 | which was something which was revealed at the last meeting. It wasn't within the papers of the meeting so we wouldn't have known that otherwise. We weren't told why the why the 3-18 model was being pursued, when the full financials will be provided, why it wasn't discussed at the Sakura committee and the question of the ownership of the largely taxpayer funded school if it goes ahead was briefly touched upon and but but there is no reference to it in here and you can understand that residents in the taxpayers will be concerned |
| 00:11:39 | to know how their money how their taxes are being spent and and and if and the financial model is being employed ought to be very transparent to everyone and and indeed at the last meeting it was said that 85% would come from Welsh government and 15% would come from the DASIS. All of those are questions so my proposal is that the democratic services go away and look at the minutes again and look to see where those questions were put within the meeting in that point of the meeting. If I could just clarify if you ask a question at a committee |
| 00:12:25 | unless the officer says I will come back to you with a response if the officer responds at the meeting then that is not going to be included in the minutes unless that unless the officer responding says I will have to come back to you with a response either written or verbal that will be outstanding if you've asked a number of questions at a committee meeting and had responses to those questions at the meeting they will not feature in the minutes so given that you've you've just listed a number of things that you say were asked at the meeting and you're you'll say that they're |
| 00:12:57 | actions I agree with the chair that I will go away and I will look at that recording and I will double check against the minutes whether they were actually actions if so I will amend the minutes and bring them back to the next meeting if not they will stay as they are and they will come to the next meeting for consideration I hope that suffices councillor parkhurst yes thank you sure I'm I am pretend that the minutes will be looked at but I would just stress that there were many questions which we were going to have answers to after the meeting thank you many questions were |
| 00:13:34 | answered and they're in the forward work program sorry if I can just sorry if I can just give you some assurance that if I if I watch the recording again and they are actions I will action straight away I will not wait until the next meeting in June I will ensure that if those questions were ones where officers said they will come back to you with a response I would I would get add them to the action sheet but also chase those responses thank you thank you um are there any other um okay sorry I need to ask for a mover to bring those minutes back to the next meeting thank |
| 00:14:16 | you councillor mckill uh seconder please thank you councillor madison all those in favour thank you that's carried okay so moving on to page eight okay and I don't seem to have any more now there are actually three recommendations sorry no it's on here so we have a recommendation can I have somebody to move the minutes bearing in mind that we're going to really look at part of the minutes again please the remainder of the minutes okay thank you right moving on now to agenda item six the forward work program and this is going to be led by kerry shotton our |
| 00:15:08 | overview and scrutiny facility thank you chair members will see the current forward work program shown at page 13 of the agenda and at the moment the dates only go up to july and following agreement to the schedule of meetings on tuesdays agm and when the forward work program is presented to you at the next meeting in june it will have all of the meetings from september onwards and added in and just a couple of things to highlight in the forward work program and hopefully all members of the committee have received a email about the presentation from |
| 00:15:45 | eskaltier fernon around the retention of the platinum eco school status and the head teacher along with some pupils will be here on the 19th of june at one o'clock ahead of the committee meeting at 2 p.m so just to highlight that with you there is a slight change to the items listed in the forward work program and that is that the council plan mid plan review shown for june will move back to july so that will be going to all scrutiny committees in the july cycle there are no other proposed changes to the items listed and sorry i should mention i say there's no change |
| 00:16:29 | we had a meeting of the school park and task and finish group yesterday where it was proposed to bring a report to the committee hopefully in july with the outcome of some of the work of the school park and task and finish group along with some recommendations for the committee and that report would come to this committee and also the environment and economy overview scrutiny committee moving on to the action tracking documents shown on page 19 you will see the last meeting of the committee was only two weeks ago so it |
| 00:17:04 | has been quite a short turn around in terms of the meeting and getting the agenda out but the number of questions that were raised around the direct award contracts they have been circulated to officers i know that officers are preparing a response on those and so hopefully will be coming soon the overview of a legislative position for elected members on how data was provided that has been circulated to members of the committee via email the request the additional recommendation sorry the direct award contracts be added to the audit |
| 00:17:46 | program i have sent that request to the internal audit performance and risk manager who has responded to say that due to the governance arrangements of now the review would need to be wider across the council and it wouldn't include now as they operate separately but the part and that the plan is currently set and resources further reduced and this will be kept in mind if any availability in the plan this year comes up otherwise it will be considered as the 26 27 plan and the other outstanding actions and we had the request from councillor dave |
| 00:18:25 | mackey for a report on child deficiency assessments to be added to the forward program for the joint meeting and i have spoken to the chief officer for social services and who has confirmed that due to timescales it won't be possible to bring it to the joint meeting but the report is on the forward program for the social and health opening committee anyway so it is there and it will be reported to scrape me and i've got no nothing else to add thank you thank you kerry council priest you had your hand up thank you chair and if we go to the 19th of june meeting we've moved |
| 00:19:02 | forward the school meal portion sizes however there has been a delay in welsh government and the healthy eating in schools consultation only started this monday so that doesn't close until the 29th of july which if we're bringing that to the actual meeting here there'll be not a lot to talk about and then we would have not be able to talk about it for six six months so i think that needs to be moved if if that's at all possible going on to the contracts and i know that the we've gone out there can we also can i request a copy of the policy and the procedure for contracts |
| 00:19:45 | that it doesn't sit very well with me at all that there's only can be signed off by one officer a contract up to 250 000 so i think i would like to see sight of the procedure and the policy for that thank you chair thank you i think the suggestion to discuss the school meal portion size is an eminently sensible one so that can be moved with regard to the copy of contracts i'm not quite sure about that yeah in terms of the school meal portion sizes yes that's that's fine i'll liaise with steve joseph on when when he thinks it best to bring bring a report to the |
| 00:20:25 | committee and in terms of the direct award contracts i would need to i will ask the question whether that that policy procedure can be shared with members yeah thank you councillor parkhurst please yeah thank you chair um on on the forward work program um i'm wondering whether it would be sensible to include an item on the implications for the council on the new welsh language and education bill which was passed on the 15th of this month there will be implications financially and there'll be implications for how you know welsh language is promoted |
| 00:21:07 | affecting all children so i i think it might be appropriate for this committee to have some further insight into that that's that's my first first point um just thank you chair just moving on then um on page page 19 of the pack on the action tracking the first the first item regarding the high level report on funding for schools there was a document produced by two trade unions as we know and we are currently awaiting the response from the cabinet member the action goes on to say that i will email education chief officer following the meeting but i need to have |
| 00:22:00 | that response before i can email the chief officer just to make that that clear the reference then i'd like to suggest there ought to be something in the action tracking about the proposed reorganization and i know you know kerry you have said you're going to look at that you know thank you thank you for that um and then and then finally um i think there should be a new action um regarding um regarding how staff um employed by gretler which in in effect are you know council staff indirectly um have been affected by the comments |
| 00:22:47 | made at cabinets um about how they how they didn't engage with the transfer process from aura um i'm concerned about comments which and and i quote um the majority of the income loss from the non-engagement of aura that was one one extract another from another cabinet member was made little attempt to assist in the process of transferring to gretler and another cabinet member said in regard to aura they were most uncooperative in terms of affecting the transfer that was just bloody mindedness on behalf of the previous operators just to be clear those aren't my words |
| 00:23:31 | those are the words of cabinet members that is one side of the story we have seen no doubt in the the position put from the other side by aura who really stated that the staff at at aura most of whom are now in effect council employees worked well beyond the call of duty went the extra mile to make the transfer a success and i am concerned about the effect those comments by cabinet have on our staff so i think it would be wise for this committee to distance itself from those comments comments and for the chair to write to the chief executive of gretler |
| 00:24:17 | saying how much we appreciate the sterling efforts made by their staff to achieve um a good um transfer of operations we do have members of gretler with us today so i'll be able to put that to them then as well but i'm quite happy to write a letter on behalf of the committee thank you chair councilor mackey please thank you chair the uh comment that was made about the minutes about the accuracy of the word contract the same applies on page 20 and i do wish we wouldn't have bullet points please please let's have numbers or letters |
| 00:25:05 | and not spots because i don't know which spot it is but it's there thank you okay okay um councilor lister please thank you um thank you for the response um about school data um that we received by email um i i can see that we and the contact provided around the the education regulations 2018 that said um the legislation clearly states states that school governing bodies and local authorities retain access to their own data alongside national data to support self-evaluation and improvement um this suggests that such data in internally |
| 00:25:49 | remains both permitted and expected so um we also have a duty under the local government measure 2011 which underpins our role in scrutiny and holding services to account and the well-being of future generations act 2015 which requires us to ensure that public services are improving so i think that we um could have access to some data and on the forward work program um it would be helpful um to to have like sight of that data and to inform our decision making i'm going to ask the chief officer claire to reply thank you councilor lister um i think you know i have been |
| 00:26:37 | very clear in the committee that we are not in a position to be creating lead tables of comparative data around school performance there are other ways in which we provide this committee with assurance about the standards in our schools the principal document being our annual self-evaluation report and of course all of our schools when they go through the inspection process with estin have their reports published you know in in that domain we are bringing a report to you before the end of academic year on the work of the school performance monitoring group which again will go into more |
| 00:27:10 | detail about how we support particular schools where issues have have been identified um so you know i i have to reiterate what i have said before we will not be bringing tables of comparing school x with school y um you know in this public arena the data is there for school improvement purposes i can assure the committee but obviously schools have their own data which they review as of their self-evaluation processes there are then those individual conversations at a school level obviously that information is shared with the government body it will obviously |
| 00:27:44 | feature in schools and annual you know information on performance will be shared by schools you know in their annual reports there are conversations between the head teacher then and the school improvement advisors currently where obviously soon to be part of the local authority team and the purpose of that conversation then is to together identify that the schools are appropriately um identifying the right priorities for their improvement and the role of the local authority then is to provide any additional support to enable them to achieve those improvement |
| 00:28:16 | priorities which obviously will all be focused on improving standards for learners so i you know i am confident that within the guidance we are we are using the data at the have you know with the regional service held to the legislative guidance provided by the welsh government so i'm more than happy to have an individual an individual meeting with any um member of the committee who would like to explore that in more depth as i did report at the last committee meeting welsh governments are reconsidering the use of national data sets |
| 00:28:52 | i mean let's remember data collection was suspended during covid completely we then had some interim measures at key stage four and they were interim we are going through a process of national change in terms of gcse examinations so the landscape is still quite challenging and and the and the and the difficulty is you know we are not going to be comparing apples with apples and data any set of data is only a snapshot of a period of time and the school improvement guidance is very clear that schools you know we need to look at a whole range of data and evidence in |
| 00:29:28 | terms of determining you know where school strengths and areas for development are then and obviously and how they will prioritize those improvements going forward so the senate committee children and young people's committee has undertaken a consultation to ask for views on the data landscape in wales and i know it is something the cabinet secretary for education is considering and again is discussing with cabinet members for education directors of education in terms of you know that national data set i think there's all of acknowledgement perhaps |
| 00:29:59 | you know the reason the decision was made to only use that data at a school level was because inevitably when there were league tables published then sadly in some quarters then there was game playing in terms of you know how qualifications were you know accessed or whatever you know that sea borderline issue and unfortunately for some learners that was not helpful in terms of ensuring that they they secured the best outcome so that's where the decision was taken at the time but there has been i think a recognition over time that not having |
| 00:30:36 | nationally agreed data sets doesn't help the welsh government at a national level it doesn't help everybody within the system obviously to be confident about the standards of education you know either nationally regionally or locally so that conversation particularly now with the changes to the school improvement models is live and we are hoping that we may get a steer from welsh government soon in terms of looking at what are the consistent national data sets that are available and then how they should be used so that that that is very much a live discussion |
| 00:31:08 | at the moment i hope that's helpful chai thank you very much claire i think that's a full the proposal was that we see the data relating to this county the proposal was that that would allow this committee to identify improvement or otherwise which is what we're here that's all we're asking for at the moment that we can see we can see for ourselves from the data for this car on for this county and compare what we are seeing today with what we saw in the recent past that's all we're asking for in order to fulfill our role and i would draw your |
| 00:32:22 | attention to the report before you today in paragraph sorry in the executive summary of item seven the words are printed here meaningful comparison with data from previous years and that's what we're asking for we're asking to be able to compare the data with similar data from previous years which is exactly what this report is saying is useful to and further on it says it goes further and talks of an insight into the performance of schools across the whole of wales that's in today's report we're not asking for that we're asking |
| 00:33:19 | for data so that we can compare what is happening in any one year which is with what has happened previously and that's what schools do that's what everybody does now we may if if we follow this decide to look more across the whole of wales but i don't think what councillor lister is asking for is going to cause problems with other schools or the counties or anybody else i think it's the data we need to have and i mentioned at the previous meeting that councillors always had this data we always had it i even mentioned the name of the officer i |
| 00:34:07 | know he's left a long time ago but i used to mention the name of the office he used to provide it and it was provided to councillors only it was a private meeting and i'm perfectly happy with that so that is my view thank you our chief office our chief officer is bound by welsh government legislation must follow back to the letter of the law however i think what you might be asking is the trends within the county i'm not sure whether that bends it slightly and allows us to look at trends rather than just you know individual schools i will take some further advice and i will come |
| 00:34:51 | back to this committee as i say i am very clear that we are operating with the current legislation which was post the period that you constantly refer to councilor mackie okay so i'm more than happy to um you know again seek advice from welsh government as i say we are in a period of change but i mean councillors again i absolutely respect that this committee has a purpose in scrutinizing the work of our schools and of this portfolio and i do believe that with the data we have that is available to you we do share that with you today's report obviously being |
| 00:35:23 | one of them because that is information that is published by welsh government at the national level school gcse outcomes for example is not so i that is why i am not sharing that with you in you know in that format so the challenge as i've said is that we have had a shifting data landscape over the last several years for a variety of reasons so it is not easy to say it is a direct comparison you can't necessarily make judgments on whether um you know every cohort every year is different you know within a school forever you know learners will present in different ways |
| 00:36:00 | i understand that yes you would like reassurance that our school's performance is solid that's of course what we would all expect and that is reflected in things like the school's individual estin reports as well which for flinch as you will know is a is a is a you know a strong profile but you know as i say until i have greater latitude in terms of the legislation i am somewhat fettered in what i i can i can share you know the school improvement guidance is clear is that that data is there for schools to determine their strengths and their weaknesses and to |
| 00:36:34 | identify areas of improvement and the local authority supports them in that process councillor priest please thank you chair for letting me come back um under the items that we're adding um hang on a second right we've got the corporate risk register down to review the council's corporate risk register we actually need that rewording because we're interested in this portfolio and specifically because we are on level four out of five of the risk register which means an action plan should be be put into place etc so it doesn't reflect the debate and |
| 00:37:19 | discussion that took place at the last meeting to have it to be reviewed so it needs to be looking at the schools budgets etc so it just needs rewording on there so it's the corporate risk it needs to be this portfolio thank you chair i can amend it to the portfolio but in terms of the corporate risk register it is a standard purpose and title that comes to every scrutiny committee and it's an disciple so that's the title purposes to present the corporate risk registers to the committee thank you right i can't see anybody else wishing to speak |
| 00:38:03 | so i'm going to move on to the recommendations which are to be found on page nine there are three i'm going to move them on block can i have somebody to move them please thank you councillor mackey and somebody to second them please councillor crease thank you all those in favor please raise your hand thank you yes thank you to those online right we move now to agenda item seven this agenda item is on attendance and exclusions and you'll find it on pages 23 to 38 of your report and i'm glad to say that we have with us today john grant our senior learning advisor |
| 00:38:53 | for engagement welcome claire homard our chief officer already spoken today and janette rock our senior inclusion and progression officer so i'm going to hand straight over to you um thank you chair i'm going to lead us through the report um but john is here as obviously a senior officer within the team that has a significant level of responsibility for these areas and within our services so the report does provide an overview for the attendance and exclusion levels across flincher schools and for the academic year 2023 to 2024 so within section |
| 00:39:33 | 1.2 you can see the current levels of attendance that were achieved in that academic year so 92.4 across our primary schools and 89.7 across our our secondary schools one of the requests from the committee and when we last presented this report was actually further detail about the spread of schools and it was noted that we had a number of schools below 90 and so we've included that report that shows you the spread of our schools now across that that sort of interval and as you can see there we have had some movement of our schools from that below 90 that we've got |
| 00:40:13 | increasing numbers moving up into the areas where we would want them to be we're still not where we were pre-covid you know we know that there's still a long way to go in of our schools but it is pleasing to see that the progress that is is being made as similar to last year illness remains our biggest challenge of actually getting children into schools but also we do note the fact that holidays impact particularly in the primary sector and there was an increase in that last year where parents were choosing to take their |
| 00:40:46 | children out of school during holiday time we are seeing our schools i think we do need to recognise the work of our schools in relation to this trying to be really creative with the resources that they have to actually re-engage those learners some of which are particularly challenging to re-engage with that more formal educational process and there's a number of things happening across the school network with schools setting up their own sort of internal support provision and those of you that monitor the estim reports for our schools will see that some of those have |
| 00:41:20 | a spotlight in terms of the excellent practice that's been noted across the schools in Flintshire that we're really proud of and we do look to support we've tried to make it more meaningful to you in some cases as members and included the case study so that you can see an example of the work of services alongside our schools with a very particular case to try and engage learners back into into schools and it's certainly not easy it's not easy for schools and it's not easy for offices in in terms of that one of our other recommendations from the the 2019 estim |
| 00:41:56 | inspection was about the use of data and councillor mackie we you'd be recognised what you're saying in terms of data and we do try to use it internally across our services to ensure that we do have an understanding of what's happening across our schools and how we can allocate services appropriately you'll see in section 1.6 we've highlighted a number of services across the portfolio that are working alongside schools to improve the offer and to provide that very tailored support to learners and to families in section 1.9 we give you an overview of the service |
| 00:42:32 | in particular the education welfare service and how john and the team have made some changes to previously it was education welfare offices only and we've improved and strengthened that structure really through the use of education support offices and attendance support officers and this has been supported very much by the welsh government grant funding that we received because this remains a priority for welsh government and our schools have have benefited from that when we look at the national data that has recently started to be published again |
| 00:43:08 | for attendance then section 1.11 shows that overall in the last academic year fincher schools had achieved what we were third nationally and we are very very proud of that because that means that more of our learners are engaging back in in education and we all recognise the importance of education for all and the roles that we have in supporting our schools and families and our young people to re-engage within that you can see the range there and we are obviously above the welsh average there education sorry ehe elective home education sorry i had a mind block then |
| 00:43:48 | in terms of what ehe stood for so we have got a section there on on ehe and and john is our lead officer that sits within his area i think in the last meeting we had judith garner who's one of our officers who supports levels of ehe we are you know we continue to see a rise in the figures of ehe i think in that last academic year we had around 230 learners and so we are mirroring the national trend in terms of the numbers of pupils and the numbers of families who are selecting to electively home educate their children but we are very excited on that and work very closely with |
| 00:44:26 | families and where possible we work to re-engage them in formal education where that's appropriate we had a conference for head teachers a couple of weeks ago with it and we had a welsh government officer who leads on elective home education presenting that to our head teachers reminding them again of the importance of this being the right thing for the child and how they can support families to to maintain their engagement in formal education where possible and appropriate we flagged about children missing in education and again this is obviously a significant concern |
| 00:45:02 | for us as you would imagine in terms of safeguarding and we have an officer that sits within john's team who has that as a responsibility and we noted that some of the data was missing in terms of destinations of pupils and so we've worked with our data unit but also with head teachers and provided training to ensure that the data is captured accurately because when we were looking at some children that were reported as missing as missing it was in fact the the data recording that wasn't accurate rather that the child was missing so again we can allocate our resources |
| 00:45:34 | appropriately to those who who really need or who really are missing we have worked to expand the the tools available to us as officers to support attendance and you will note over the notices and we are working really hard again with schools where schools are identifying children as as having an authorized absence that action is then taken it is that the discretion of the head teacher and officers and our legal team work in support of that and in some cases family have had quite significant fines again reinforcing the right of the child to have access |
| 00:46:20 | to education and we have actually taken the opportunity to publicize that information to get that message out there that this is not about being punitive this is about children accessing education because it is something that is of value and something that they should engage with so the report again shows further information about that in section the challenges around mental health which we all recognize but also the capacity of our health services locally to support with that we have excellent support from our school nurses it is about the number really |
| 00:47:01 | isn't it and the availability of those to work with us and we do engage with our health colleagues to see what we can do to to improve the services that we're doing i've got a meeting tomorrow with the lead of our nd team in the east again to be looking at what we could do to support children schools to actually re-engage back into into our schools that's the positive part of the report in terms of the improving attendance figures i think it's important that obviously we reflect that our levels of exclusion are not necessarily where we would want them to be |
| 00:47:36 | and we are continuing to work with with schools around that head teachers have the legal right to exclude and many of you will sit on governing bodies and perhaps be part of those committees where you are having to consider exclusions for flinch learners we are following the national trend on this but again we are working hard with our schools to try and look at at ways of how how we address that and again today there is a national summit isn't there should have been the national behaviour conference today but i'm here in spare time so welsh government |
| 00:48:12 | are recognising it's a challenge for schools and the head teachers as are we in terms of what the the presenting needs of our our learners are and how we support schools to to meet these you will recall that we've talked about substance misuse previous committees and we revised our policy in response to that and we've also talked about trauma and there was a port coming back and in the 19th of june isn't there to talk about what we've done around trauma-informed practice because we recognise the impact of that in its very many forms on learners and on on |
| 00:48:47 | schools and something that we are again we'll have a report on is our belonging strategy which again was part of our conference with head teachers a fortnight ago one of the things that also put in place for this academic year that wasn't there last year is the training offered through plus dead when pru and they are as you would imagine some of our experts in terms of supporting particularly de-escalation strategies for schools and so there is an offer of ongoing subsidised training for all of our schools to access that on a rolling basis so that they can |
| 00:49:25 | get the knowledge and expertise they require so that as the situations are de-escalated as soon as possible rather than escalating into something that may lead to to an exclusion the reports obviously sections two and four highlight the the resource issues and we have reflected the fact that we have received welsh government funding and to support our work in this and that really is supporting us to have a positive impact particularly in relation to to and there are a number of risks particularly as as some children really do struggle to engage |
| 00:50:02 | and it's one of our our portfolio risks around education other than at school particularly for those children who require very specialist and bespoke provision we do have a challenge at the moment around our specialist provision i'm mindful there's another report coming in in very busy um in the next two committees um to to provide what it looks like for us but also we we have some um learners at the moment that have very particularly that it's very difficult to find a match in terms of provision so we are working hard as officers to to meet those needs |
| 00:50:38 | but as i say it's appropriate to to fight those um those risks if i pause there chair and then open to to any questions thank you very much for that right councillor lister please congratulations janette because i know that the work you do um has a real impact i've seen firsthand i know um the work with inclusion is is amazing and and thank you and and my comments are kind of slightly removed from that at the bigger picture because we have to stop talking about issues like attendance and exclusion with such disconnect from the budgetary pressures that |
| 00:51:13 | are facing um the problems outlined in this report they're not new and they're not just a result of covid either um the systematic underfunding of schools has began in the austerity years and it's just been made worse by three consecutive years of council cuts um and and and now we're seeing the predictable consequences reduced curriculum options um particularly in alternative provision and growing levels of exclusion disengagement and persistent absence and schools are expected to manage the these complex needs with far fewer staff and far fewer resources |
| 00:51:48 | it's unsustainable um children are reduced to numbers in larger classes with limited um with limited personal attention and we all know the children that struggle in school need time and they need kindness and that's a real shortage in schools the way that they are operating um and and the result then is falling self-esteem poor engagement and ultimately a higher risk of disconnecting from their education entirely and this report as brilliant as as some of the case studies are it focuses entirely on managing the consequences but attendance and exclusions are not |
| 00:52:22 | consequences to manage they are symptoms of a system that is unstrained and that the solutions need to be preventative and not just responsive what's also missing from this report is any that we as a council have played a part in making things worse cuts to school budgets weren't made in isolation and they have consequences and these are consequences the crisis in engagement in behavior and in attendance didn't just happen we helped create these conditions it costs more to fail a child than it does to support them properly in the first place |
| 00:52:56 | and and whether that cost comes through um education out out of school youth justice or care or long-term exclusion it's a price that we're already paying and it's going to continue to rise until we sort this out so i want to amend the the recommendations i want to add to the to the first recommendation that a future report outline outlining how resource levels curriculum breadth and school funding affects attendance and exclusions and and what preventative strategies including investment in teaching and learning are needed to reduce reduce disengagement |
| 00:53:30 | and then furthermore a second recommendation that the cabinet be asked to consider and report a risk management strategy of the long-term financial consequences of underfunding schools including the rising costs of education out of school exclusion and youth disengagement we can't afford to keep unfunding the front line and then acting surprised when everything downstream gets more expensive thank you chair thank you councillor lister i think you might have to repeat the amendment or kerry wasn't able to write it out or would you like to send it |
| 00:54:07 | thank you very much that would be very helpful thank you um councillor priest please thank you chair um i would like to say the same very very good report i want to second councillor lister's recommendations to be added to the as i've said all along the cuts are cutting deep now and they are the effects to our heads to our teachers to our pupils are showing um someone said to me the other day i couldn't even get a pencil to give to a child there is just nothing no paper no pencils no nothing and these are basic needs so yes we are going to see |
| 00:54:52 | lower attendance if we can't i think you're doing a fantastic job though in what you're actually doing and i've seen some of the things that you do in action but we're working against a reduced budget on a reduced budget on a reduced budget and it will crack and it is cracking now and we said this before the budget and that's why this committee this scrutiny committee all voted not to cut education and then we were overruled thank you chair thank you councillor healy please thank you chair um i'd like to to definitely thank jenette for a report and for the work |
| 00:55:34 | that is going on but i too would wish to support um councillor lister's amendment um i think the challenges which schools are facing and it is pleasing to see that there is an element of progress but we're not we're still not where we should be i think the challenges schools are are compounded by the financial situation without a doubt because of the limited resources to deal with situations if i'm writing saying i think councillor lister is proposing that we really look into preventative measures as well as the financial aspect um preventative |
| 00:56:21 | measures rather than responsive my own view is that and i think this is confirmed by the report we're not where we should be with regard to attendance with regard to behavior and no schools complain about the lack of plurality that although the youngsters may be coming in they then a bit about but what time they come into school and i've noticed that myself and i think there is um perhaps a problem of lack of parental support that the level of parental support for pupils and students in school is not as high as it was previously um i think in addition to |
| 00:57:11 | various problems that have been mentioned i can't help feeling there's a certain malaise in in society uh as i walk around i see significant numbers of nitrous oxide large canisters lying around and um the um called gold whip apparently and i wonder what effect these have on on the children who are sort of abusing them as well um i know i'm sort of rambling a bit but i want to latch on to something that has emerged in some of the estin reports where they have highlighted what schools are doing in case studies or cameo studies whatever to promote the well-being of |
| 00:58:00 | students and there's been a suggestion to me that there is a correlation between what a school does in promoting well-being of students and improvements in behavior and attendance and i wonder if that is the case and i wonder if we could focus on some of the schools that are getting it right and ask ourselves what is it that they've got there that is actually getting it right with regards to attendance punctuality behavior etc and um sort of celebrate their success um and maybe advocate sort of changes along those lines thank you |
| 00:58:46 | thank you councillor healy councillor parkhurst please yeah thank you chair um firstly i'd like to congratulate janet on a good report um and share share the accolade um and the fact that flintshear came third best in wales in terms of attendance and i think that needs to be recognized that uh you know we are at the top in terms of performance in wales but there is a but but i think that underlines that the performance in wales is not particularly that good um the start of the report mentions the legacy of exceptional events and i'm assuming |
| 00:59:32 | that refers to covid and i'm not i know throughout the um you know commentary in wales in general there's a reference to you know covid being responsible for this and that and the other i think it's time we put covid aside because it becomes a distraction when you look at the figures before covid they were already on a um trend of going down um in in 2018 the attendance in primary school was 94.6 it was almost up to about 95 um and secondary school was 93.3 what where we are now yes there has been an improvement since covid |
| 01:00:13 | but covid is masking the you know reasons for the you know the underlying reasons that i think we've heard from councillor nalista and others that you know funding is going to be a major factor there um so i think that needs to be the focus and not say that well you know covid happened and therefore of course it's going to be bad um i note that one school is below 85 um we don't know how how far below i think without labeling a school it'll be interesting to to to know that answer um i also note the massive increase in fixed term exclusions and this has got to be a |
| 01:00:56 | concern a sort of simple question perhaps a perhaps a naive one but what happens to those children who are permanently excluded the report doesn't indicate that and you know obviously there's an impact on on the children their families and on society as a whole so i think you've just said about exclusions i'm wondering if perhaps that might be a topic for the forward work program in terms of helping us to understand as committee members how a school gets to that point because obviously it's not just an instant you've got a fixed exclusion there's a lot goes |
| 01:01:37 | on before that and a lot of intervention but eventually there comes a point when there might be a fixed term exclusion and i'm wondering if that might be a valuable topic for us as members to have added to our forward work program yeah i mean there may be occasions where actually it is is a fixed term exclusion because it is a it says it is an event actually that has crossed the threshold in terms of acceptable behavior um so yes it could it might not just be an accumulative factor it could be because there has been a a behavior exhibited by |
| 01:02:12 | people that is unacceptable and has to be dealt with immediately in that regard so i think you know it's it's understanding perhaps that there are different reasons obviously why pupils will experience an exclusion um do you want to come in because some of the things that you've you know you've touched upon in that commentary is exactly um you know one of the reasons why actually with our schools we have um we are trying to sort of get them back focused on this concept of belonging because what is absolutely clear from all the national and international research is that you |
| 01:02:43 | how children feel about themselves if they feel safe and their well-being is absolutely paramount in terms of them how they engage you know in school and with the offer that is being provided to them and whilst we've always done a lot of work in this area i think recognizing the challenges that our schools are facing in terms of the budgetary position um you know we wanted to sort of and it is a national issue i mean everything we're talking about here please don't think is a specific issue it is a national issue which is why the cabinet secretary um for education's |
| 01:03:14 | priorities are attendance you know and well-being um you know to to support you know pupil pupil progress um you know i sit in national meetings and you know and we're all we're all having exactly those same conversations aren't we and we're all trying to employ the same strategies i i reference you know councillor parker saying can we stop talking about covid but actually the impact on many of our children and young people as a result of being isolated being in lockdown not being able to engage you know with wider family and friends in particular |
| 01:03:49 | has had a catastrophic impact on the health and well-being of many learners you know and as a one of the key aspects of that is that some some learners we cannot get out of their bedrooms can we and you've got colleagues in your services who are who are literally talking to young people if they you know through through their bedroom doors them and janette might be able to you know expand upon that you know a little so that's why actually you know we will come back to you as well to talk to you about the work that we are doing with our heads to say the one thing you've |
| 01:04:19 | got to prioritize actually is the well-being of your learners now i'm sure you know all schools would say that they do that but you know as part of the work that we did with them a couple of weeks ago actually we did showcase some excellent practice from one of our primary schools within that conference and we have got commitment to work with the head teachers through a working group where actually we will identify those schools that we know are doing a really great job and making sure that that approach to that trauma-informed practice that nurturing focusing |
| 01:04:48 | on pupil well-being is at the center of what they do and our head teachers were really engaged in that discussion two weeks ago weren't they and they're really committed to we can all sit and moan about it till the cows come home but actually what are we doing about it and then how effectively are we using our limited resources at both the school and the local authority level as Jeanette references in the report it's how we're working across the different teams in the portfolio to make sure that we are all contributing to to that well-being of those children young |
| 01:05:17 | people to try and obviously increase their attendance and modify their behavior in terms of then them not getting into situations you know where they that is leading to exclusion you know we do reference the ongoing challenge around substance misuse you know it is a significant issue and the school's response is actually sometimes to young people who have got themselves into difficulty in that array it is contributing we've been very clear about that that sometimes the school's approach to exclusion around that you know we think in some cases could |
| 01:05:49 | be more proportionate because it's not often sometimes not recognizing that that young person may be a victim of exploitation or may have well-being issues that are not being addressed that has resulted in them becoming perhaps dependent on that substance in the first place so it is a it is a really complex arena you know there is there is no doubt about that estin recently in their own published report on behavior in secondary schools do reference actually that breaking of that contract between parents and schools and they do again which i thought was |
| 01:06:22 | quite bold for the national inspector is actually you know to comment on the fact that you know some parents are not effectively supporting their children to engage they are not recognizing sometimes that their children are acting inappropriately and they're not supporting the schools and the efforts they are making to try and encourage better behavior so you know there is this big debate still raging about sort of the the societal impact really of of the all of our learners with the same brush here but you know there are for a significant proportion |
| 01:06:56 | of our learners you know real challenges that they are still facing you know after that event so it's not an excuse it is a reality in terms of them how that is presenting i don't know if there's any anything you would want to add to that i think i think you know the comments that i've made i think we do need to recognize the work of our schools working in challenging situations who are still being created who are still being driven to support improvements for our learners and to get them back in school and as Claire said we had a brilliant presentation |
| 01:07:32 | from one of our schools at the belonging strategy and to see all of those head teachers actively engaged in that process and the reason where we've gone with a belonging strategy is some of the points that you're making about not seeing something in isolation we as a service we're saying right okay well what do we do about attendance what do we do about exclusions and recognizing you can't look at those in isolation and so you know councillor Healy's points about what makes a difference well feeling like you belong somewhere that you're safe and |
| 01:08:01 | this is about staff as well as as pupils and parents as well is it a community approach is what does make a difference and to our learners and that's why we've prioritized for our action plan the belonging strategy to have strands in relation to attendance and exclusion that sit under that so we can say well if we adopt this approach of belonging where people feel safe and valued what does that then mean in terms of practice that would support children to to engage with education and also reduce those incidents of exclusion so |
| 01:08:34 | you know that really does resonate with with what you said really in terms of our priorities and parents is is an interesting one at the moment you know we've got some parents who perhaps don't recognize that their children need support but also a number of parents who are struggling to support their children and where those boundaries and barriers have been lost over time and I won't say you know the code but you know where that's happened then they are struggling to re-engage with their with their children and in some cases there is you know |
| 01:09:07 | feeling of helplessness I think for parents and also for officers because Claire's right we do have officers that sit outside closed doors of children where no one else is involved it is just our services as the contact with them to maintain that that contact you know thinking again about a safeguarding thing but also the impact on the officers for these increased levels of complex cases but also their ability and also feeling a bit helpless when the parents go what can I do to get my child out of their room and officers really say well we don't know you know and we |
| 01:09:42 | we had a meeting on Friday we've got a lot of meetings isn't it recently um with uh with colleagues from social services who lead on parenting and also from um the mst teams so the multi multi-systemic therapy team to talk about these challenging cases and how we can work collaboratively one of the initiatives that is in operation in some of our schools at the moment is champions and we're looking to see with again believe colleagues in in social services how we can um expand that pilot across our schools to see if there is someone there within the community |
| 01:10:18 | who can work alongside parents it's not always very easy for a parent to go into a school and say I'm really struggling with my child you know so it needs to be someone that they feel comfortable and confident with so again there's been an ask from that team for us to work collaboratively with um to to expand that that initiative in terms of permanent exclusions you know we're very happy to not happy but we you know willing to to bring back information around that but um john is the the chair of our iotus panel and anyone who's been permanently excluded john will be notified |
| 01:10:50 | by the schools he would have contact with the families or his officers would have contact with the families so we're aware of all of them and our priority is obviously to secure alternative education provision um that could be challenging it could be challenging because of the nature of the exclusion but also the nature of the individual's needs which perhaps may not have been identified fully and we need to do further work to understand what type of provision and placement they need so there is an impact obviously on that but our priority is to get them back into |
| 01:11:22 | a form of education that will enable them to complete their their statutory education isn't john and then hopefully move on to a successful pathway after very much for that i was actually going to ask you about what do we do to support the parents as well because some of them are struggling with with how best to support their child and they're not sure themselves so thank you for that reassurance sorry can i just say i think there is a real challenge about expecting schools to be the answer to all of society's problems there's almost become an acceptance |
| 01:11:57 | now that schools are the fourth emergency service they are not they are not it's not their core purpose their core purpose is teaching and learning okay and this is actually again quite a national debate at the moment and the challenge also is that other services for example health services access to neuro diverse services you know they're not they're not as readily available as they need to be what is the role of health visitors one of the biggest challenges we're facing is the number of very young children coming into school who are still not toilet trained you know in some of our |
| 01:12:29 | some of our nursing reception classes we've got over a quarter of the class still in nappies it is not a teacher's job to be changing nappies they are there to teach so you know but this is the issue we can't keep expecting schools and our schools are so creative because they will always put the needs of the children first they will try and find ways to offer support to parents to undertake tasks that really they shouldn't be doing because they know that it impacts on that particular learner you know when we've raised this with the cabinet secretary and we'll continue to |
| 01:13:01 | do so at a national level because other services have got to play their part to enable schools to focus on what they should be focusing on and I think we do need to recognise that you know as you say our schools are brilliant at trying to find ways of doing that but with reducing resources they are having to contract perhaps those additional support mechanisms because they've got to then try and protect that core teaching and learning offer but again it's it's a real national discussion as I say that why do we have a national behavior summit today called by the |
| 01:13:33 | cabinet secretary because these are challenges being faced by every local authority across wales chancellor crease please thank you chair uh first off like every other member that's spoken so far congratulations on the report and the presentation of the data I've said several occasions in the past that I'm kind of data driven I like numbers I like to make decision based on empirical data I like to be able to follow the numbers and it's interesting that with numbers here we can follow but we don't have numbers on performance that we can follow but I won't start raking about |
| 01:14:13 | the moment what concerns me and chief officers just touched on it just now that we seem to as a society be moving away from the idea that a school is a place of learning and it's becoming a place of social care undoubtedly I'm an ex-educator and there are lots of ex-educators in this room and it's to see the committee has made up the people who have real life experience of the job but it concerns me when we move away from the idea that our job as elected members |
| 01:14:57 | and who where and when the money gets spent in effect that we've been talking this year about budget cuts for education education didn't suffer a budget cut at a five percent uplift it got an additional seven million I I know you you're sitting back but that is the reality education wanted more in not giving education more we were able to give a little bit extra than we might have been able to give to social services to assist with the problems we have with social care with health and I support everything that's been said but if you if if we carry on down the route of |
| 01:15:37 | there is an endless pot of money for one particular portfolio the rest of the portfolios within the organization that we as elected members have responsibility for we're taking our eye off the target I support everything that's been said here apart from the fact the statement that education budget was cut it was not and I would be able to sit here 100 wholeheartedly support everything that's been said by everyone I can't because it's not factually correct thank you thank you councillor crease uh councillor eastwood please I left feeling |
| 01:16:21 | that follow that now isn't it's our people in brief um I just wanted to to um highlight really that many of the challenges and the impacts of the budget options were actually discussed prior to the budget considerations so we kind of anticipated the challenges that schools would be facing and our support services would be facing in light of this budget decision um we do need some of um some help from our partners such as health in relation to the mental health issues that many of our pupils are experiencing but that is their responsibility isn't to come |
| 01:17:02 | to the table and help us with that that's not within our control but we're doing our best in relation to the resources available in relation to the budget and the recommendation here being overturned well the budget was agreed by members of council and I think we all need to remember that and that we did get the commitment at the time for resource to be diverted wherever possible to assist in the officers such as the ones we have sitting here who can give focused support to our schools where they need it which I think is a is a crucial benefit for us |
| 01:17:40 | um and also schools are also facing indirect cost implications aren't they from things that are outside of our control such as the changes in curriculum and um class-based assessments needing to be done by a teacher which gives an increased cost then to schools or supply staff and also takes the teacher away from the front of the classroom so that's going to be part of the issues that schools are facing that are not directly related at the budget so um I just wanted want to finish commending with the creative and innovative support services and the work that |
| 01:18:21 | you're doing with our schools who are also being creative and innovative and I really do commend the work they're doing in difficult circumstances thank you councillor madison please thank you very much chair I think most of what I wanted to say is actually you're already being said but in terms of the long-term effects of covid I do think it is something that we are going to feel the effects of for years I myself was in hospital with covid for six weeks in march 2020 I saw people die on my ward I've never really recovered from that and it was the counselling |
| 01:19:04 | I received from mind afterwards that enabled me to return to work and I'm in a long covid support group I'm in a long covid support clinic and I can say there that there are people who have never emerged from their bedrooms adults and children since covid um my parents went to school during world war two and I don't think they have actually recovered from that they could remember diving under their desks when the bombs were dropped on their school as late as the 1960s I used to hear them see them jump when they heard a loud noise because they related that with the bomb falling |
| 01:19:44 | on their school I just wanted to say that about covid um I also want to say that this is an excellent report thank you very much it is something I'm particularly interested in because I used to to get my daughter to go to school for various reasons she had a lot of backing and support from education and social services and so forth uh I suppose my real question is about do you see trends that drive non-attendance and exclusion and the trend I'm particularly thinking of is that I was in a previous existence I've mentioned this before I was a foster |
| 01:20:26 | for another council and I come from we all come from the world where you get up in the morning you have your breakfast and you go to school so it's something of a shock when you actually meet children teenagers who don't get up in the morning don't have breakfast and don't go to school and they come from parents who didn't get up in the morning didn't have breakfast and didn't go to school um I used to work uh many years ago I used to go in and do reading sessions in a school single-parent families in the black country where we had 15 year old mothers 30 year old |
| 01:21:03 | grandmothers and 45 year old great grandmothers the majority of whom had not been to school so you did see that trend in society so I'm asking here do you see trends behind non-attendance do you also think and we've had this raised as well actually is it due to issues in society that we are being asked that we are actually being asked to cure I did read a very good article the other day about her local government had virtually become a mini welfare state and it seems to me that you're saying the school it seems to me that you're saying the same about schools |
| 01:21:46 | actually that schools are becoming a mini welfare state so do you see trends do you see patterns do you see areas and I do see here as I have said before that I went to school in extremely poor area of Birmingham children who wore plimsolls on the feet whose elbows were poking out of their jumpers and didn't have coats and we went to school every day because we'd actually of the whole we'd got parents who went to school every day we all did very very well I sat next to a girl who actually ended up a girl who was very very poor family free school dinners wore plimsolls |
| 01:22:26 | on her feet and became a top head teacher in Birmingham school she used to be called in to sort out schools in special measures so she did really really well she turned her life around we can all do that my father did it through the open university and the evening classes his education was interrupted by world war two and I know this is this isn't going to sound tactful I don't know how to phrase it but I'm just saying from my personal experience that poverty doesn't stop you from going to school and being educated it worked terrifically well for me educated in b19 |
| 01:23:05 | Aston one of the poorest areas of Birmingham because I had parents who went to school and took me to school and that's why it was a terrible shock to me when I fostered to find out that there were children who were in the culture when you don't get up and go to school and that was to do with parental backing as well I suppose my general idea here and I've rambled on a bit as do you see trends do you see patterns is it due to issues in society thank you very much sorry I did ramble on there thank you councillor Madison for sharing that with us Jeanette please if I come in first |
| 01:23:43 | and then John will we'll add some some information a minute and the things that strike me that I see but then John will see more of it in terms of the data is I think there are some generational um you know perhaps devaluing of education where we have some families where John and the team they'll have worked with the grandparents with the parents with the children you know that there are some families within our area where education may not be valued for whatever reason and it might be that the family struggles for whatever reason to have that routine you know some of our families |
| 01:24:19 | are operating in very challenging circumstances perhaps very chaotic environment where actually getting a child out to school can be a real challenge for that family for whatever reason but we do see some families that that our teams will know oh that's something that you know so there is that I think there is a change in attitude to education I think um I'm trying to say COVID now but I'm gonna have to say it um you know after that the children didn't go to a school on a full-time basis and so I think some parents and this has been recognized |
| 01:24:54 | nationally well they managed without going on a Friday or they managed not to be there full-time and they were still successful so why do they actually need to be there all the time and I think that partly is is an increase in the holidays that people are saying well we can take them out and it won't have an impact well it does have an impact and the research shows that it does so I think there is a a change in parental attitude towards the importance and value of education and what attendance levels need to need to be there something that we are seeing um as a trend |
| 01:25:26 | is for Claire's already mentioned the neurodivergent learners and I think for some of those the formal educational environment is just too much of a challenge it's resulting in sensory overload and so there are a number of um of what we would call emotionally based school avoidance is one of the biggest challenges that we've got and I'm not saying all of those children would have an ND profile but there is that anxiety about being in school but also those levels of stimulation and the inability to cope with that formal five-day educational program which is |
| 01:26:00 | impacting on on education so those are some things that I'm seeing but I'll just hand over to to John in case there's anything else you want to add John yeah I think it might be worth explaining that my service have three services under my service area um you know they're to do with engagement our progression team so that's about engaging young people and uh families who have been uh perhaps fallen out of the system or might have a number of reasons um why the children are in school and we operate that support through our um deotis panel which I chair we have a relatively new service |
| 01:26:30 | called community focused schools which is very much upbringing school and the community closer together so we're running events uh next week we have a event with our special school where we're um trying to uh ensure that families um who use our special school and have children our special school have more opportunities with within their locality and flint in that particular instance but we also have um a statutory service the education welfare service has long established where the focus is on welfare primarily but also you know at the end of the day there are times |
| 01:27:01 | when unauthorized absence does lead to to a statutory action through the magistrate's core fixed penalty notice but all of that is an evidence-based approach I've been with flint now just over five years and one of the recommendations from 2019 sdm was about using data numbers profiles appropriately but clearly recognizing we don't have the resources to target and support everybody all of the time so the focus in in the last 18 months and future more in next year's report has been very much about looking how we can engage at a younger level uh thinking |
| 01:27:34 | particularly at the end of key stage two year six seven on transition and finding creative ways I use that word to engage our families when emotionally based school avoidance when there are many good reasons related to health or whatever why that young person might not be able to attend regularly and to see what results we get from that because one of the things that Jeanette says to me repeatedly over the last year is what impact are your services having so when we do self-evaluation this year not only we're looking at what we do the number the things we can tell you about the case |
| 01:28:07 | did it make a difference because for me that's the fundamental change I'm moving towards is to try and engage young people in a form of education and that's not always school it might well be one of our projects it might be our fresh start project it might be using community resources and to work as much of that spectrum as possible thank you I would just like to reiterate my thanks and add them to the thanks of everybody here today I think the work that you do is incredible and I know it comes from a place |
| 01:28:43 | of compassion and practicality so thank you very much the work that you do is really making a significant difference to our young people and I thank you for that I can see that Councillor Coggins-Cogan has got his hand up but as he's not a member of the committee I'm going to ask that he mails his question or his point to me directly so that I can move progress thank you oh sorry I apologize Councillor Shawcross yeah I look at you know family values today I if I'm in Saulkney around half past eight the amount of children that go into Morrisons and they come out with a red bull |
| 01:29:21 | and a pack of crisps well I never went to school without a proper breakfast you know well those kids don't know any different I don't think so you know when they have children the cycle will be broken really you know but it's not just that they don't sit and have to tea together you know there's a in this generation especially now the parents and the children I was very respectful of mine but there's not the same divide anymore you know if I got caned in school I was frightened to death of getting through to my mum and dad because I'd |
| 01:29:49 | have had another dose of it at home but today what you know they get the person will go in and remnants I know they don't get the cane now whatever discipline we give them the parents will go in and demonstrate so you know to be a teacher today is an absolute nightmare because the discipline has gone I think and the trouble is the parents expect that to be they go to school without discipline and they expect the school to provide that and it's not right is it you know they should go into school with a level of behavior and discipline and it should be left to the |
| 01:30:20 | teachers and to teach and I've you said before you know so I value exactly what you've been doing you the world's in today thank you thank you councillor Shawcross I'm actually going to move to the recommendations of which there are two now on page sorry oh no I didn't apologize I didn't sorry I won't um I tried to avoid going over old ground I do agree with the comments that have been made about the report I've got a number of things to go through if you don't mind um first of all I want to talk about the holiday issues |
| 01:31:14 | I don't want to upset you um has any further thought being given do you know to splitting the summer holiday the summer holiday can be difficult for you people with certain learning difficulties difficulties clearly there's a problem with summers with holidays and particularly parents who have financial difficulties they may find that they can't go on holiday when it's expensive and a different time of year would help them I know the Welsh government's decided not to progress with that but there is |
| 01:31:55 | there is evidence that says that that indicates that there could be advantages all around if we did move towards that so I'm just putting that forward as a suggestion come back at me afterwards by all means can I I'd like I do have more questions thank you thank you no you're absolutely right this this obviously is not a local decision this is a national decision and as you know Welsh government did undertake a consultation around the um you know the timings of the school and presented information that you know supported the concept of perhaps reducing the long summer |
| 01:32:37 | break unfortunately that the responses indicated that there was not a great deal support for that and there were some questions about whether the evidence that was presented was robust enough to support that decision so you know we we are again guided by the Welsh government legislation in terms of the current arrangements for the school year so that I don't think that one's anywhere currently councilor McKee okay I was asked to bring it forward so I did um my next point was in relation to um I've got so many questions written here you |
| 01:33:09 | won't believe it uh that well you will believe it won't you you know me um you're right um community focused schools I think that was what this was all about um and and I wondered yes that's right um I didn't I couldn't draw from this what a community focused school what what was that was all about what was what was likely to be achieved and whether we'd seen any progress towards whatever we were hoping to achieve um already so so that was my question on community focused schools um you've mentioned that all right okay yeah yeah community focused schools |
| 01:33:55 | is a Welsh government social policy initiative it started two years ago with their guidance and documentation and we were chosen in Flintshire to recruit permanent staff around that and the aim of the overall strategy is to try and bridge the gap between the community and the families that we engage with whether it be about attendance or exclusion whatever often don't have a very um engaged relationship with their local school they'll see it as a place that their children might go to occasionally but don't necessarily see it as something that serves |
| 01:34:32 | any purpose for them so since then two summers ago we started to look at a number of events that we've been rolling out progressively we've targeted four areas within Flintshire and we're building each year a stronger head of steam and some of those events around things like food and fun but also days that um families can come to to to take part in activities so to try and make that relationship with school a positive start and of course as we meet the families and as we profile our data and look at our unauthorized absence we will you know make |
| 01:35:07 | sure that we do our best to engage those families who are I suppose you'd call them hard to reach so that's the way we see this project we actually got Welsh Government coming up next week because they see our model as a model of good practice at the present and I'm hoping we'll be able to develop that in the future. Can I just add um you know we were um we had to identify our areas didn't we was based on um poverty and deprivation and so we picked out those areas based on sub-attendance levels but also about levels of preschool uh preschool meals wasn't it so those |
| 01:35:38 | that's what identified those areas wasn't it. Thank you and in view of the fact that the Welsh Government are coming up to talk to us can you give us some idea of the progress are you is the is the is the concept achieving its aims are you seeing progress in the right direction? I think so because um what I've tried to establish in in the last three years especially is that the notion that all of my services are about attendance and exclusion and that they're harmonious and what we try to achieve together so even though there's a spectrum of service delivery |
| 01:36:17 | what we do I'm a member of the national group that sits with Welsh Government but my managers also sit on the regional group so we're sharing practice but each county was given um an outline and then we chose to go with what we felt was suitable for our localities so as I say we here we recruited staff we kept a commitment to those staff and managers and we supervise them and manage their outputs and impact as I say from Jeanette's point of view other areas have delegated some of that Welsh Government money to their schools directly so |
| 01:36:51 | it's not light for light between even across North Wales you'd find six shades of community focused schools if you like. Can I can I just come in you know I mean an example of the work we've done is obviously the case study which was a specific example of the the community focused schools so it's all contributing to that increased attendance that we're seeing across Flintshire you know there are small numbers of individuals that have been involved with the team but that wider impact on community engagement and actually bringing parents and families into the school |
| 01:37:22 | environment to see it as a positive because some people didn't enjoy being in school at all some parents you know really do have it's challenging to go in to to be in those conversations with parents and so it's about breaking down those barriers as well and we've had some really successful events haven't we over the past couple of years where we are seeing increasing participation of families around those schools in events. At 1 10 a revised model attendance policy was shared with all Flintshire schools can you give us some idea of what what the changes were |
| 01:38:01 | and if possible what how how how that's been accepted I've still got some I think I've sort of suggested one of the things to do with attendance that I believe makes a difference based on experience is a is about consistent management and consistency of process and when I worked in my previous job we worked as a region a North Wales region to create collaboratively a model attendance policy I brought that with me to Flintshire in 2020 we produced a version of that which we published three years ago first of all I update it every January so head teachers |
| 01:38:38 | have had that process maps and my team then go in and act as partners but critical friends to make sure that that process is working as efficiently as possible but as I say we can't be in every school all of the time we have to target based on the evidence where we apply our support. I feel like we're doing a double act so I just wanted to add you know a big part of an attendance approach within schools is that consistency but that graduated response and we didn't see that in all schools and so we we've done some work internally to see what we knew about practices |
| 01:39:22 | within our schools and we've been working alongside them so whilst we've issued the policy to say this is what good practice looks like we've also done some coaching really isn't it and meetings with school leaders to say what have you got in place and what are you actually doing you know we make reference to the point about authorised absence it's the decision of the head teacher whether to accept the parents reason for absence or not and if they don't accept it that's at the point where we can actually move things forward because it becomes an unauthorised |
| 01:39:54 | absence but if those processes are not in place and being adhered to by all staff and and that is about promoting the positive engagement work rather than the punitive but that is part of that tool set isn't it and so that forms part of the work as well doesn't it John? Thank you I fully agree with what you said if I may please chair I should talk through you I'm so sorry I fully agree with what the officers have said but the reason I asked the question is because that bit wasn't in the report it just says a revised attendance policy you've told us about |
| 01:40:30 | of consistency which I think has helped us so that was that I'm missing some of my notes out the fixed penalties now I'm afraid I've got a big note about this one was this done on a straightforward you're in this this you meet this criteria we issue the penalty or was it done on a somewhat floating basis where perhaps some attention was given to the child or the situation with the parents I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from here because hitting and that's what it is going to be to some some parents won't care they'll say I went on holiday |
| 01:41:23 | and I saved this much and they're going to charge me that much I'm I'm in pocket but to other parents perhaps they had other reasons and and and that's what I was I just wanted to get some idea about that if I may and I hope that's a valid question yeah just to be absolutely clear we don't associate fixed penalties with holidays in terms of that is not what it's about at all okay there's no relationship between schools authorizing holidays or not and us taking fixed penalty notices we have a code of conduct it's been accepted by a local |
| 01:41:57 | authority it's published and head teachers in the last three years have had the discretion with which to apply to us for a fixed penalty notice if it hits the terms of the code of conduct we administer it we issue it we monitor it and then at the end of that process if there is still an outstanding situation we consider legal proceedings based on unauthorized absence but I must stress you know for the committee and for the public we are that's not our aspiration consequences are part of a spectrum of tools you know we always see help help help intervention |
| 01:42:31 | but at the end of the day if you're not getting anywhere the law is the law and we do believe that that has to be exercised and if needs to be put before the magistrate's court but I must stress to you we don't have an aspirational target of we will prosecute 200 people this year or isn't it it's that mood again thank you um I'm sorry to keep going I really am but I do I would like to get through these yeah at 115 at 115 the second paragraph you mentioned you mentioned this is the school medical process and I know you've got a meeting with them next week so I |
| 01:43:09 | appreciate but you mentioned that the panel has the sorry the process has difficulties and when I read that I'm always wanting to jump on one side and say you know do you need support here is there something that this committee can do here if if if the medical side of it isn't there and and that's my question here but I have and I have got another one yeah we work multi-agency all of the time with a call that allows us to work with health to establish what's called a school medical and the community pediatrician would often deliver that |
| 01:43:52 | but it is not it's not an invasive medical it is usually a conversation or an assessment between the pediatrician and a family to try and establish if they feel there are legitimate grounds for the absence since covid those resources have been more difficult to because they're so busy but we still have access to those resources so I don't think there's a role for this committee in chasing that up can I just come in there as well and one of the issues that the health board did have around school nurses was recruitment and so we we did have a |
| 01:44:26 | period of time where we they weren't at full capacity for our literature schools but I think they are now I think that's been resolved and it has been a priority for them to to get back up to capacity right councillor Mackey I'm actually going to draw the discussion to a close and say that every councillor has had an opportunity to speak that wish to at least once but if you have any questions or queries please just email them so my thanks once again to the three of you for being so patient with us and answering all the questions |
| 01:45:03 | so fulsomely now we have two recommendations we did have one can I can I raise a point of order chair I'm sorry to do so but councillor Lester put forward an amendment at an early stage supported by councillor Preece I know there's been an extensive and informative discussion since so it may well be that the proposed amendment is no longer relevant but could we just check whether it is or not thank you you would you've actually stolen my thunder I was going to ask Kerry if she would read out the second recommendation as suggested prior |
| 01:45:48 | sorry thank you chair so we've got the recommendation in the report in front of you members which was to note the data the attendance exclusion data for future schools and the actions undertaken by officers to support increased engagement to promote the safety and well-being of our children and young people and then there are two additional recommendations which were moved and seconded by councillor and Lester the first one is that the committee requests a future report outlining how resource levels curriculum breadth and school funding |
| 01:46:25 | affects attendance and exclusions and what preventative strategies including investment in teaching and learning are needed to reduce disengagement and the second additional recommendation is that furthermore the cabinet be asked to consider and report a risk management strategy of long-term financial consequences of underfunding schools including the rising cost associated with eotas exclusion and young youth disengagement thank you so we have the recommendations not two I added the two I thought they were one okay can I have somebody to move |
| 01:47:03 | them please I'm just councillor Lester second them please councillor Preece all those in favour please raise your hands councillor Mackay sorry yes that's unanimous chair but sorry we're not anything online sorry apologies I was right I think we'll take a five minute comfort break then that's all right with all of you and then come back and discuss thank you everybody all right I will reiterate what I said before a local government access to information act 1985 to consider the exclusion of the press and the public the following item is considered to be |
| 01:48:42 | exempt by virtue of paragraphs 14 of part four of schedule 12a of the local government act 1972 do I have somebody to move that please yeah can you indicate which sections of this report need to be in a part two meeting and can't be discussed with the general public viewing race the advice we've had from the monitoring office is that this needs to be a part two discussion and I can only take my advice from him thank you so can I have somebody to move it please thank you councillor crease and somebody to second it please councillor Shawcross |
| 01:49:33 | and all those in favor please show your hands thank you very much oh any against any abstentions that's carry thank you |
Latest News
24 Feb 2026
Update
A Change of Group, the Same Commitment
Dear Residents, I have taken the decision to leave the Labour group and join the Liberal Democrat group. When I was elected, I promised to work hard for our com...
Read more
12 Feb 2026
Committee
Social & Health Care Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 12 February 2026
Committee appearance update. This post covers my appearance at Social & Health Care Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 12 February 2026. The Oxford Brain ...
Read more
6 Feb 2026
Committee
Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Friday 6 February 2026
This post covers my appearance at Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Friday 6 February 2026. Councillor Lister addresses a perceived con...
Read moreQuick Links
Bus Timetables
Find local bus timetables for the 22A & 126 services.
Bin Collections
Report a missed bin collection or check your bin day.
Streetscene
Report Potholes, pavement, road defects, dog fouling, fly tipping and more.
Contact Me
I am here to assist with any concerns or queries you may have about our community, please don’t hesitate to get in touch.