Committee
Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 4 December 2025
4 Dec 2025
Fran Lister
Committee appearance update.
Meeting Overview
This post covers my appearance at Education, Youth & Culture Overview & Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 4 December 2025.
Highlights
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Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
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| 00:00:00 | Can we go to councillor Fran Lister now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Sharon, for the report. But I am sorry, I don't know that I can support the report with the words that I'm reassured that there are appropriate mechanisms in place to support. Maybe the verbal responses might give me greater confidence |
| 00:00:25 | and mean that I can, but beyond the report, the data doesn't go deep enough. And there's not really a willingness to look at patterns or high-risk groups and root causes, so we can't claim to be doing the preventative work. I'll give an example of a group that's completely missing from the report, |
| 00:00:47 | women aged 30 to 40, particularly mothers. National evidence presented to Parliament this year shows that this group is one of the largest groups leaving the profession. When you understand the reality, it's not surprising. The emotional and practical load of raising a family and the constant mental organising and worry |
| 00:01:06 | sits on top of a job that's already demanding. You're expected to provide high energy, high quality, engaging teaching every day. In fact, you hold those high expectations of yourself, but when it becomes too much, there's nowhere to hide in a classroom and you feel like you're failing. You're failing professionally and you're failing your family as well. |
| 00:01:29 | I want to put on record that if you are a flinching teacher and you find yourself in that position, you are not failing. You are extraordinary, you're doing an amazing job, but you're exhausted because the impossible is being asked of you. I welcome the reference to flexible working in the report and on paper that sounds great, |
| 00:01:50 | but in the real world, under three million annual reductions to school budgets, it's not realistic. Schools can't offer that because there's no capacity. Support services have their place, the VivUp and the other thing, occupational health counselling, but they can't fix a system that's pushing people to breaking point |
| 00:02:12 | and it needs structural change. Work-life balance isn't an individual choice, it's cultural, structural and it's shaped by leadership and it's shaped by how we choose to resource our schools and that's where wellbeing is either protected or destroyed. It starts here, it starts with the collective responsibility |
| 00:02:33 | of counsellors, of officers, because wellbeing rises or falls on the structures we choose to put in place and the resources we choose to put in place. If we want to keep teachers in the profession, we must be willing to understand and act on the causes and not just the symptoms, |
| 00:02:49 | which I'm afraid this report responds to the symptoms of a broken system. I could have spoken about many groups today, I could have spoken about men's mental health and teaching, I could talk about colleagues navigating the menopause, I could talk about NQTs leaving under enormous pressure before they complete their induction, |
| 00:03:07 | but I chose to focus on this demographic because it's my own experience. But the point is that this report doesn't point to any of those, it doesn't discuss the root causes of why teachers and support staff in school are experiencing such difficulties with coping with their anxiety and mental health. So we're presented with sticking clusters when what's needed is meaningful prevention |
| 00:03:33 | and honest dialogue of what's driving people to long-term absence or out of the professional together. So yeah, I'm sorry I can't support this report. I'll come in first. Thank you for your honesty there because I know that takes a lot of courage |
| 00:03:53 | and having been a working mother all of my life, I know some of those challenges myself. I accept if you think that the report is not detailed enough, from my perspective, I was told we required an overview ordinarily. If it was one of our scheduled reports, we do go into greater levels of detail, more than happy to do that going forward. |
| 00:04:12 | Also pleased that you mentioned menopause of women because, yeah, equally we see lots of challenges for that group, particularly at the moment. I'm not going to comment on the system because I think the system is determined by somebody other than myself. But I'm grateful for your honesty and your feedback |
| 00:04:29 | and more than happy to reflect that in a future report. Fran? Oh, sorry. Claire, do you want to come in? If I may, thank you. And again, I really appreciate Councillor Lister's personal reflections there. It is really challenging, isn't it? |
| 00:04:48 | At the end of the day, we have a system that starts at the Welsh Government level in terms of education policy. I've referenced the work that has been done over the last few years to really start thinking more strategically about the workforce and how actually decisions are impacting on a day-to-day basis. I too was a working mother. |
| 00:05:08 | I was a teaching head in a small school and took very limited maternity leave. I've been there myself juggling with a husband, working away, so I absolutely recognise the pressures that many of our women in particular within our workforce are not denigrating dads either. I mean, family circumstances are varied. |
| 00:05:27 | I think the challenge is that we, I believe, try and do as much as we can strategically as a portfolio to manage that workload within the national context. The challenge then is obviously, we work in a system, don't we? We have delegated budgets to schools, local management of schools, so it then has to then go down to the next level, |
| 00:05:46 | obviously, to the leaders within schools in terms of how obviously they are making decisions about how they're deploying their resources, how they are catering for the wellbeing and the support for their staff. We're trying to support the leaders who are trying to support their staff and obviously, Governors have a role in that as well. |
| 00:06:03 | It's a multi-layered system, isn't it? There are challenges at every level. But I would hope we can reassure Councillor Lester that actually here in Flintshire, we try and work together as much as we can. You as councillors, the role that you undertake and the decisions that you make, what the work we do as officers, |
| 00:06:20 | and the support we then try to provide to our schools, obviously, through our HR services, through our occupational health services, through the support they get through the portfolio in terms of their school improvement advisor, and with officers, we're all trying to work collectively to manage what is a very, very challenging system for everybody. |
| 00:06:42 | Thank you, Claire, for coming back on that one. I'll leave my questions to the end, but, yes, I agree with Councillor Lester. It's a very difficult subject, it's a very emotive subject, which possibly touches and affects everybody in our personal lives, and we see it within the schools itself, and it's something that, yeah, I take to my heart as well. |
| 00:07:12 | I've got Lynne Bartlett next on. |
Full Session
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Transcript generated by AI from meeting audio. It may contain errors, omissions, or misattributions. Please treat it as a convenience copy and refer to the original recording for the authoritative record.
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| 00:00:02 | I'd like to welcome you to the meeting of the Education, Youth and Culture Overview and Scrutiny Committee. Before we start the meeting, we've had apologies from the Chair and Vice Chair for today's meeting. Unfortunately, the Chair isn't very well, and the Vice Chair has given apologies. Her husband's had an operation, so isn't able to attend as well. So, before we start, we'd need a nomination for a Chair for this meeting, please. Can I nominate Carolyn Priest, please? |
| 00:00:39 | Thank you. That's been moved and seconded. A nomination for Councillor Carolyn Priest. Have we got any other nominations? No. In that case, can I have a show of hands for Councillor Carolyn Priest? Yes, that's unanimous. Would you like to come and sit here? Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Education, Youth and Culture Scrutiny Committee. I'd like to welcome everybody here and additional visitors to the actual meeting. |
| 00:01:58 | We have quite a few members of the Cabinet here as well. So, without further ado, can I take apologies, please? Thank you, Chair. We've received apologies from Lisa Allen, one of our co-opted members, and we have a number of substitutions. Councillor Shaun Bibby is subbing for Councillor Theresa Carberry. Councillor Debbie Owen is subbing for Councillor Bill Crease, and Councillor Mel Buckley is subbing for Councillor Gina Maddison. |
| 00:02:26 | We've also received apologies from Vicky Barlow as well. Thank you. Thank you for that, Mel Buckley. Thank you. Councillor Mel Buckley, would you like to speak? Thank you, Chair. Just to say that I will have to leave by one o'clock if the meeting should run that long. We hope it's not going to take that long, but we have got quite a few |
| 00:02:55 | meaty agenda items on today. So, thank you for that, Councillor Buckley. Chair, I have submitted two questions to this committee to be answered by the cabinet member, which I forwarded before nine o'clock to the Democratic Services Manager. Can these be put on the agenda, please? I have replied to Councillor Parkhurst this morning on email just to clarify that neither question can be committed to the emergency rules. There's no provision in the constitution that |
| 00:03:37 | would allow questions direct to the cabinet member at today's meeting, for one, and the reason for that same question is that it was to do with a council meeting, so it's not appropriate to raise it to committee today. Cabinet members can be asked questions at committee. Sorry, so I'm just trying to catch my breath. Questions can be asked at the cabinet member at committee only in the instance where there's a cabinet report or a report that the cabinet member responds before that committee, so that question was disallowed for that reason. I'll just clarify |
| 00:04:08 | the second one. The second one, I believe, that the information requested under that question is embargoed until the 15th of January, I think, or thereabouts, and therefore it cannot be discussed under any circumstances, even under part two, and I understand that the chief officer and cabinet member will be providing a briefing for members in accordance with once that information has been reported and published from Eston, so neither question can be submitted, Chair. To Debbie Owen, she's struggling to connect. Thanks. Chair, I find it firstly deeply disturbing |
| 00:04:56 | that there is a matter of such serious importance to the council, to parents, to children, which involves very serious matters, and yet we, the scrutiny committee, are being told on whose authority, I don't know, that we are not able to receive any information until the middle of January. This committee has an obligation to consider matters which are of interest and concern to our educational community, and I would request a further explanation from the cabinet minister or the chief officer about this, and if it needs to go into part two so we |
| 00:05:46 | can discuss it confidentially without the public gaze, then that's fine, but this really does need to be discussed. Chair, the advice that I've been given by the monitor officer for the council is the information for the specific, I think you're talking about the Flint High School topic, the question you asked for is embargoed, cannot be discussed even under part two. There are legal issues that are being debated and discussed at the moment and need to be resolved, and that will be done by the 15th of January under Eston's stewardship, I understand, |
| 00:06:20 | and therefore at that point the committee and members will be fully briefed and made aware of circumstances of outcome of that. That's the position that we're in, it cannot be forward under any circumstances, Chair. Yes, Council, come back then. Yeah, thank you, thank you Steve. I obviously have to respect the monitoring officer's views on that, however concerning that might be, but I'd like to ask the cabinet member if despite the um not having an obligation to answer questions, whether she would voluntarily |
| 00:07:02 | respond to the questions made by members of the public yesterday at full council to which they did not receive even the courtesy of a written response, can they have an answer please at this meeting orally, because they took the trouble to turn up to the meeting, including a youngster who had a question in his hand which which wasn't answered about whether you visited his school, and they deserve an answer, cabinet member. Chair, my advice is that no, that is not appropriate. The questions were put to council and they were asked at council. Written responses |
| 00:07:38 | will be provided to the members of the public who were in attendance yesterday accordingly, and they will be distributed to all members as well. That's the process that was followed, and it's not appropriate for this committee to hear those questions or answers in this forum, it's a scrutiny committee, it's not council. Council is the appropriate vehicle for that and forum for that, so I would suggest that that is not, and that was the question which was disallowed, so that's not, I would suggest we do not proceed with that item. Thank you for the advice on that. |
| 00:08:10 | Can I ask one question on that as well, that usually when a cabinet member etc is not available at the main meeting, they submit straight away written answers. Could you actually explain why that didn't happen yesterday? Thank you. The cabinet member had provided written answers ahead of the public questions, but because it's a public question forum, there was no mechanism to give the members of the public that written response before the meeting started. Where members are asked questions, and we do it slightly differently with member questions, |
| 00:08:50 | but for public questions, there's no mechanism within that process to allow that to happen. That was explained at council yesterday. Right, okay, I think because we've got such a big agenda that we're going to have to leave that one there, but I would have thought another cabinet member would have read the answers out, or the leader would have read the answers out, but I will put that one to bed at this moment, that the answers should have been given yesterday in some structure, but thank you for your answer there. Thank you very much. Are we happy to move on? |
| 00:09:21 | Thank you. Agenda item two, declaration of interests, including whipping declarations. Councillor Lister? Can I declare a personal interest in agenda item six, please? Could you just say what the actual personal is? Thank you. I can. I'm a former employee that has left the fashion due to mental health related difficulties. Thank you for that, and fill in the appropriate forms necessary. Okay, thank you very much. Do we have any other declarations? No. Okay, let's carry on. Item three, if we go through the minutes, please, which are on page five to page 11. |
| 00:10:15 | We have three sets, Chair. Yeah, so we've got three sets of minutes. The first one was from the eighth October, which we go through page five, page six, and page seven. Is there any issues with the actual, any corrections? Is everybody happy on that one? Okay, we carry on and we'll do them on on block. So, if we go to the next one, which is the 23rd of October, page nine, page 10, page 11, page 12, page 13, page 14. Yeah, okay. Is everybody okay with those? Page 15, and that is the 6th of November meeting, page 16, 17, and page 18. If everybody's happy |
| 00:11:33 | with those minutes, can I have a vote? Oh, we have a... Councillor Mackay's minutes. Councillor Mackay's minutes. They move, and can I have a seconder? Thank you, and can I have a show of hands? Thank you. Are there any matters arising that anybody wants to bring up from those minutes? We'll cover them. Oh, we'll cover them. Okay. All right, let's move on to item four, which is the forward working programme and action tracking. Sorry, I'll let you finish speaking first, sorry. Thank you, Chair. Members will see the current forward work programme |
| 00:12:17 | shown on page 23 of the agenda. Since the last meeting, a couple of special meetings have been arranged, and they are included in the forward work programme, and an email was sent out to all members of the committee. Those are the 14th of January, which allows the committee to consider the self-evaluation on education services and learning outcomes report ahead of cabinet, and then Friday the 13th of February for the two sustainable communities of learning programme items ahead of cabinet. I'm not proposing any changes to any of the items |
| 00:13:00 | listed there in the forward work programme. Moving on to the action tracking shown on page 29. Since publication of the agenda, there have been a few updates that I can bring you. Obviously, the recommendation that the committee made to cabinet, providing the additional 500,000 received from our government schools, a briefing note has been circulated to all members on that at the beginning of the week, and it was also discussed yesterday at council under a notice motion in relation to the actions to write to Welsh Government in terms of the recommendation |
| 00:13:47 | that the chair write to the Welsh Government to encourage appropriate funds provided in the delivery of the local authorities responsibilities under the 2025 Welsh Language in Education Act. That letter has been sent to Jeremy Miles. Also, a letter has been sent in relation to the Flintshire Youth Justice Service recommendations there. One was in relation to the recommendation of the Equalities and Social Justice Committee to embed speech and language therapy into every youth justice team, be supported as mandatory. That letter has been sent, |
| 00:14:25 | and also a letter has been sent to the Chief Executive of the Youth Justice Board seeking a fairer, sustainable funding system for the Youth Justice Service going forward. Those are not included in the agenda, but those updates have been made since the agenda was published. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Kerry. I've had two people notify that one to speak. First one is Councillor David Mackay, and the second one is Councillor Dave Healy. Councillor Mackay. Thank you, Chair. It's an item I'd like the committee to consider adding to the |
| 00:15:08 | forward work programme. I've been concerned for some time about professional development amongst our teaching staff, and I had had discussions with the Chief Officer and the Deputy Chief Officer during the time of GWER, because I felt it was important that this committee should see details of training courses available, the proposed number of attendees, any assistance that was provided to schools to assist teachers to attend training courses, because clearly you can't take a teacher out of the school without there being a cost to the school, and also possibly |
| 00:15:58 | the following year to see actually what the results had been of that training, which was being offered by the school improvement organisation. Now, I left that when the school improvement organisation was disbanded, because clearly it wasn't relevant anymore, but I do feel that there should be some control by this committee, or some oversight, at the very least, of the sort of training which is being offered to our staff and what the take-up is, particularly as we now have such a difficult situation in relation to school |
| 00:16:44 | budgets. So, I wondered if it would be possible for an item to be on our forward work programme, I think a regular annual item, where we could see the courses that were being made available to our staff, we could see, as I have already said, I'm repeating myself now, the numbers that would be expected to attend that within the next 12 months, again, like I said before, the likely support given to not just schools, but also the staff as well, and then in the future to see what the take-up was. Thank you, Chair. |
| 00:17:30 | Thank you, Councillor Mackay. Can I add to that? Because I think that it's important that we see the impact of that, and if that is then spread out, so they become ambassadors or leaders on, depending on what the training is, to actually correlate that out to other members of staff. So, that would be interesting. So, if you're happy for me to actually add that to your item, I'd be grateful. Thank you for that, Councillor Mackay. Sorry, Chair. Just on that, we have under items to be scheduled, the new model of school improvement, |
| 00:18:05 | the future annual performance monitoring reports that haven't been put into a date yet, but I would, with the Chief Officer's agreement, I would suggest that that come as part of that report rather than a separate report to the committee. Yes, I would agree that's the most appropriate place to put it. I think what we have been describing to you over the last 12 to 18 months is a real transition in the way school improvement services obviously are being delivered, and the model is extremely different now to when we have the regional school improvement service. |
| 00:18:41 | We've also got the development of the new national training body, DUSCE, which actually is in existence but is yet not in a position to deliver any training. And then we have the shift in the model now of that school-to-school collaboration and schools providing support for each other. So, it is going to be, it will be a report that does not describe what you might have expected in terms of lists of training courses, numbers of staff attended, because the model itself has shifted considerably under the Welsh Government guidance, but we would aim to obviously capture that, |
| 00:19:14 | you know, within that report when we schedule it onto the agenda. Thank you very much for that very good detailed answer. Councillor Markey, do you want to come back? Thank you, Chair. I'm a little bit concerned about the proposal because this information was not included in the reports that GWER used to bring to us, and that's why, while they were in being, I was negotiating with the chief officer and her deputy in order to actually set something up so that this could happen. I don't want this to get lost. I |
| 00:19:52 | think this is far more important than the importance that's been given to it in the past, because it's so vital that staff are given the opportunity to improve and to have training, whether it's nationally or locally. I think the issue in relation to school-to-school collaboration is something that I would like to consider totally separately from this, because quite frankly, I'm hearing some incredibly disturbing comments by not just by teachers from across the board about that concept, and I think I would rather |
| 00:20:39 | it was not part of this. This I see purely as looking at professional development that's available and that's being taken by our staff. Thank you, Chair. Before you come back, I can see where Councillor Mackay is actually coming from, so I agree that it should be included within that item when it comes onto the agenda. However, the information and the detail that Councillor Mackay is asking for, I think, should be included in that report, so it's not lost within it. Chief Officer? |
| 00:21:20 | Thank you. I absolutely understand Councillor Mackay's focus on this. My concern is that I'm technically not going to be able to provide what he's asking for, because that's not the model of delivery that we are now working within. We have a model that is based on Welsh Government guidance in terms of the new arrangements for school improvement services, which has been through all of our Cabinet and committee cycles, so our model is approved. I'm not quite sure where Councillor Mackay is obviously receiving feedback from. I'd be interested to know that, |
| 00:21:50 | because that's not the message that I'm getting through my team and my staff. There are ongoing dialogues with schools. I think we all have to recognise that there is a reduction of resource within the system. We do not have the model that we had before, and the challenge really now is that so much professional development needs to be tailored to individual schools' priorities, which will be based on their own self-evaluation, which will then identify obviously areas for improvement for them as a school, and potentially areas for improvement for |
| 00:22:18 | individual staff that will be linked to their performance management as well. It's a far more complex picture than just being able to present a list of the local authorities offering X number of courses, X number of teachers applied, because professional learning is driven from a school level based on their improvement priorities. Obviously, what we're waiting to see from the new national body is how they are going to be providing the learning opportunities around the key national priorities, literacy and numeracy in particular, as you know, wellbeing. That's what |
| 00:22:48 | the cabinet secretary has stated as her priorities. They will be developing those national programmes. We do have the continuation of some of the national leadership programmes at senior and middle leadership level, training for classroom assistants. There will be some elements that we will be able to pull out, but I am concerned that trying to produce a report that Councillor Mackay described might not be possible, which is why I think it is important it sits within that wider context actually of the school improvement model. I recognise Councillor Mackay's concern for the |
| 00:23:18 | professional development of staff, and if Councillor Mackay's got concerns and he wants to come and share those with myself and Mrs Barlow, our senior manager for school improvement, more than happy to have that conversation, because we do have an ongoing dialogue with all of our schools through the school improvement advisor network and obviously through the federations as well. Nothing's been brought to my attention at this current time, but headteachers are concerned about that. So perhaps that would be a helpful conversation for Councillor Mackay and I to have |
| 00:23:44 | outside of the meeting. Thank you, Chief Officer. I think we'll come back this one time. Thank you, Councillor Mackay. Thank you very much, Chair. Surely what I'm asking for is a list of available training. How are our staff expected to select training they want if they don't have some sort of a list to go on? In previous life, I used to run training, and the first thing you go to is the list, is what's available. All I'm asking for is that we have a list and we can see, so that we can see what's available, and so can our staff. |
| 00:24:39 | I think if we come to a compromise, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I also understand where the Chief Officer is coming from, because a lot of the training that is available is person-centred, tailor-made per school for their own, so the impact is greater for their school. So I can see a list could be put together of the array of different courses that each of the schools are currently going through, even though they're individually. So it's a compromise between what Councillor Mackay is asking for and what the Chief Officer |
| 00:25:25 | can provide. Is everybody happy with that? Yep, I've got Councillor Dave Healey next. Thank you. Thank you very much, Chair. I think I'm right in saying that at a previous meeting, it was go on to the forward work programme at a relevant later stage, and I think I'm correct in saying that, but I don't see it so far. Thank you, Councillor Healey. Yes, it is included on the action tracking, it just needs to be |
| 00:26:21 | allocated, so it's not missed, it just needs to be allocated to a date, so it is there, Councillor Healey. Thank you for clarifying that. Councillor Andrew Parkhurst. In view of the comment made by Mr Goodrum, and I think you mentioned a high school and the serious concerns regarding that, which are embargoed until the 15th of January, I think you on the 29th of January, which I believe is the first scheduled meeting of this committee after that date, to have a full and comprehensive response that we can discuss in part two if that |
| 00:27:14 | is necessary, and then on page 31, and this may well be a partially related issue, there's an action for, well regarding the DBS checks, which there was an internal audit which revealed inadequacies in the procedures, and this was discussed at the meeting of this committee on the 25th of September, and it hasn't got an action in there. This is a very serious matter, the safety of our children in school is really high up on the list of our priorities, and we have a situation in another school which we've just referred to where allegedly there have been |
| 00:28:04 | serious concerns, and I am therefore surprised and concerned that there is nothing in this action tracking to say what is being done about this, and it needs high priority, and I would the next or the earliest possible opportunity. Thank you. Chief Officer? Yeah, I'm happy for an update to go on to the forward work, but I would like to reassure Councillor Parkers that actually the actions that were identified under the DBS audit are all in train, and we are regularly updating those, so just to provide that reassurance. |
| 00:28:45 | Thank you for that update, thank you, and in relation to the request for reports to be brought to the next meeting on the 29th of January, I believe that the cabinet member in consultation with the chair of the committee has agreed that a report will come on the 29th of January, so that will be added to the forward work program. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Can I have a proposal for the actual forward working plan? And thank you, Councillor. Can I have a seconder? Thank you, Jason Chalkoff. Thank you very much, and can I have a show of hands, please? |
| 00:29:18 | Thank you. Thank you very much, and we're going to go on to our first big item, and I know this one might go on for some time. Item five is the budget 26-27, stage two, and it's on your pages 35-44, and I'm going to pass over to the Chief Officer, Claire Homard, for this section. Thank you, Chair, and I'm also ably supported by Emma Jamieson, our finance manager for the portfolio, so I'm going to take you through some of the sections of the report, and then I'm sure what you're going to want to do is ask questions and have a debate about it. So, as you can see from |
| 00:29:57 | the executive summary, we are moving through, as a council, our budget setting processes for 26-27, and one of the key aspects of work that's been undertaken, therefore, is to review the cost pressures that we are anticipating in the financial year ahead. So, this report is designed to give you an overview of the cost pressures, both for the education portfolio and for schools. So, members will know that, obviously, the corporate resources overview and scrutiny committee have been receiving updates on the budget position, and the last report identified |
| 00:30:30 | an additional revenue budget requirement of nearly £27.5 million, so we all acknowledge that that is a serious and major budget challenge for the council ahead, and we are all working collectively to try and find solutions to close that gap. But this report then focuses on the pressures specifically for education and schools, as I say, as we've been working through the outcome of the Welsh Government budget and the provisional settlements. So, if I go to 106 in the report, you can see a table there that outlines the cost pressures for education and youth services, |
| 00:31:08 | and there are three items listed there in relation to borrowing costs for the joint archive service capital investment project, the transfer of post-16 responsibilities for additional learning needs, and the increase in the hourly rate for our schools for the delivery of early education under the Welsh Government's offer. I'm just checking, I'm just looking on the screen as well. Yes, Jeannette, I think, is going to join us for this part of the report as well. Thank you, Jeannette, because obviously a lot of the pressures do relate to additional |
| 00:31:39 | learning needs. So, you can see that the total cost pressures for the portfolio there are £441,000. And then at 107, the report outlines the pressures for schools' budgets, and you will see that, you know, a significant proportion of those are related to pay awards in terms of support staff and teachers. But again, as part of our approach to meeting the increasing demands being presented by our children and young people, that we have made previously decisions supported to increase our resource provision at Hardin High School and Flint High School, so there are pressures |
| 00:32:20 | in relation to the ongoing revenue costs for those. And, you know, again, this is an attempt for cost avoidance by making provision locally rather than children potentially being placed in more expensive out-of-county provision. We also, as you know, have a real issue in terms of our specialist provision being full, and we have waiting lists for that provision, so there are ongoing pressures there in terms of the capacity that we have created for uskoll-pencork and uskoll-mice to absorb those pressures. One of the areas we have identified, and you will be familiar with |
| 00:33:00 | our Welsh education strategic plan and the need for us to make equality of provision for children with additional learning needs who receive their education through the medium of Welsh, we have identified that we need some additional resource at uskoll-micegadmon, our Welsh medium secondary school, to meet the additional learning needs of its pupils there, obviously through the primary provision placed at uskoll-glannaravans, and of course those children will progress into secondary education, so the pressure there relates to the revenue costs of setting up that provision |
| 00:33:31 | from September 2026. And then the last item there in that part of the report is £40,000 towards the costs of decarbonisation schemes and the support for utility costs whilst some capital works is taken. So those are the cost pressures that have been formally identified, but 108 in the report also highlights a number of ongoing risks which as a portfolio we do keep a very close eye on, and this again comes back to the issue that so much of our activity in the education portfolio is supported by grants rather than core budget. So as you will see there we have flagged the |
| 00:34:13 | potential risks of the loss of grants in relation to the youth service, to the youth justice service and supporting our provision currently through the shared prosperity fund for our fresh start provision when we are being told that it's unlikely that that SPF funding is going to continue. We've got significant pressures in schools as you are all very familiar with, particularly again for schools supporting their learners with additional learning needs and the pressure that that is placing on the ALN funding which is delegated through the school's funding |
| 00:34:51 | formula. So we need to be considering whether there's the option to increase the amount of funding available for that. Sadly as we know when schools are facing challenges in setting their budgets the option open to them is often a reduction in the workforce and they obviously go through their processes to manage that sensitively and appropriately, but of course then there will be exit costs for those staff so we do hold a budget to support those school exit costs and the challenge always is that you know will the number of workforce contracts coming to |
| 00:35:26 | an end actually exceed the amount of money we have available in that reserve. And then the issue around meal prices for school meals so Welsh Government have indicated there's unlikely to be an increase in the unit rate for the universal primary free school meals but if the charge from the meal providers was to increase then obviously that is going to create a pressure. 109 in the report gives you an overview of the cost pressures around our out of county placements so within the forecast we already do have an additional budget requirement of two and a half |
| 00:36:02 | million split between education and social services but this budget is already projecting an overspend for the current financial year and again this reflects the very high demand for specialist provision and there are processes by which that is kept under tight and regular review. As I say we are trying to develop more local in-house provision to compensate for sort of for that increased demand but we are not seeing the demand reducing in fact what we're seeing is increasing so it's proving very challenging to meet that demand and there are issues with |
| 00:36:36 | the availability of appropriate places within the marketplace that they are impacted by inflationary pressures as well so it makes the situation extremely challenging. So we again do keep those pressures continuously under review and there will be more updates as we move to the final stage of the budget process. Members will know that you know the council through its reconnect program again is looking at how we can bring children and young people from more expensive out of county or fostering placements into more localised provision |
| 00:37:09 | that that work is ongoing it is at an early stage but at the moment any potential pressures rising out of that change have not yet been included in the report. So as we move forward now I think we're one of the last scrutiny committees to consider the cost pressures so that's obviously for your debate and discussion today and then 110 in the report outlines then how we move forward in terms of the process to achieve what we all hope will be a legal and balanced budget in February at the council so thank you chair I hope that just gives everybody a quick run |
| 00:37:46 | through the report. Thank you Claire for that very comprehensive overview of the budget that we have in front of us. I think I've got one speaker at this moment I know we're going to have loads more I do have a long list of questions some of them have been answered with what you've just been saying so I will let it go out to the committee first and then I will ask my questions afterwards if they haven't already been asked by other members of the committee so councillor Dave Mackey thank you. Thank you chair I'm looking at the executive summary I'm looking at the first |
| 00:38:22 | second third fourth paragraph down of that and it says that the scrutinising portfolio cost pressures to provide assurance that they are an essential requirement for the 26-27 budget and to ensure that there is no scope to remove defer to defer those items so I feel we need to a real and we've also got members of the cabinet here I think we should give these items a really strong examination at this meeting and that in order to have can fulfil that requirement so that's what I'd like to do |
| 00:39:10 | and so this archive budgeting borrowing costs going up and well just let me say something else I believe as well that just because we approve these costs at this stage should not mean that they are definitely going into the budget because at future date we are going to be part we are going to be presented with challenges to bridge a gap and I feel at that stage we should be actually assessing those challenges with what we've already agreed to as budget changes in other words I don't think the fact that they go past |
| 00:39:56 | point should mean that they are casting stone I think they should still be removable if as members we because that's what we're here for we're here to decide in most cases is it this or is it that and so I'm concerned about the archive borrowing cost why it's gone up what's going on and what all that's about we haven't got the background to we just got a single line of text what's gone on what's happened why has it happened and what's that the additional learning needs my |
| 00:40:34 | boils me up this was a requirement in statute put to in statute by a government we cannot be expected to find money in order to fulfill a statutory requirement that's been given to us by the welsh government we have no way of finding that money that money has to come to us cost of fulfilling that statutory requirement has to come to us from the organization which determined that it was necessary I'm sorry they must be responsible and the fact that they have been funding it up till now but now they're not going to anymore I find deplorable they have |
| 00:41:34 | their responsibility so I mean what happens if we don't find the money ourselves by by by placing that requirement on our taxpayers I can't accept this that one early entitlement increased hourly rate I can see an explanation and I'm sorry I don't understand it I'd like to know a bit more about that because I want to know because I don't feel what's there and I'm sorry about I don't know who wrote the report if it was you I'm sorry Emma but I just don't feel there's enough there that I can say and I'm holding to this that I definitely |
| 00:42:16 | can confirm that I have gone through it and I do so that's that right now we've got provision for an award for a pay award and after yesterday we want to make a few certainties on this don't we at least so the first thing I want to say is the norm has been that the Welsh Government have picked up the increases in pay now this one is for next year so if this pay award if we are approving this money now and the Welsh Government picks this up we need to know for certain that this is part of the education budget and will stay in education |
| 00:43:10 | or not and we need to know that for certainty so that's that one now the next one the teachers pay award from April to August 26 so that's the part of the year and I don't quite get exactly where that is but again I think it's the same situation as I've just described before I can't comment on the hard and high one because I'm a governor there I think we do need to have these school resource units my experience is and and and I have experience of school resource units and also when we and I'm saying this for the benefit of our committee of our cabinet members who are present |
| 00:44:09 | when we were discussing the youth justice service one of the most important drivers for young people becoming customers of that service was school attendance and anything that encouraging school attendance and clearly a resource unit is providing a way of retaining children in school when perhaps otherwise they would be out on the streets I feel we have to support because of the incredible problems it creates otherwise so my view is that that one is important and should stay in as far as the specialist primary |
| 00:45:08 | facility is a provision is required again we have to accept that some young people need that extra support and we have to provide it the fact that the numbers going up is probably more attributable to COVID than perhaps anything else and we had no control over that and the last one is revenue transition for decarbonisation I mean we could talk about this for about two hours because the whole point about decarbonisation I presume by that we mean the amount of pollution that our schools produce the amount of carbon that the problem I've got there |
| 00:46:06 | is that we can't actually make a difference because we don't contribute significantly anyway and never will so I can't support that one thank you chair. Thank you Councillor Mackie. So I think we've got the chief officer who'd like to speak on this one yeah yeah just so you're aware sorry sorry I chief officer wanted to speak so chief officer is speaking next as she's part of this committee thank you yeah thank you chair so I'm more than happy to try and pick up some of the points of explanation for Councillor Mackie and Emma and Jeanette as |
| 00:46:50 | perhaps if you can support me around some of that so if we start with the archive so the archive project as you will be aware that a number of years ago and this has all been approved obviously through the cabinet process is that the two services in both Flintshire and and Denvershire joined together to make the northeast Wales archive service to ensure that we have a sustainable model going forward and we have a statutory requirement to provide that service both buildings that the service is currently housed so for us that's the rectory in Hardin |
| 00:47:19 | are not fit for purpose we have exceeded now our storage capacity and be in mind these are very sensitive documents so they have to be stored in temperature controlled systems and fire suppression so both services have the issue where we are paying significant amounts of money for the public records to be stored to be stored in other locations because we no longer have the capacity so that building's not fit for purpose and bringing the two services together is designed to obviously make sure we have a modern service that is able to support both Flintshire and Denvershire residents |
| 00:47:54 | so a number of years ago cabinet did approve a decision that we would apply to the national heritage lottery fund for capital investment to build a purpose built archive building on the site next to theatre clwyd and we have been successful in that bid and both both cabinets have committed to a proportion of the capital costs to support that build but the majority of that funding will come from the national heritage lottery fund so a lot of work has been going on in the background so what's listed here is the because of the timing of the project is when the first pressure in terms |
| 00:48:29 | of the capital the revenue cost to support the capital investments i'm looking at emma you know we'll kick in in the 26 27 years so that has all been approved by cabinet and there will be update reports to cabinet again in the new year now as we are moving through to the next critical stage of the application of the final tranche of funding from the national heritage lottery to actually build the archive so but please be assured that that report will be coming through to cabinet in the new year anyway did councillor mackin wants to come back on that yeah we'll just put you back |
| 00:49:07 | through there councillor mackin sorry right i'm right so does it mean that if we don't agree to we can't pay for the building yes and then we would full file of the agreement that we have in place with the national lottery heritage fund then i would then i would say that we have actually just dug right deep down on this and we've decided that it has to be approved thank you i absolutely welcome your questions councillor backy and i am aware that there hasn't been an update report for some time to cabinet and scrutiny but that is coming through in the new year |
| 00:49:42 | so that everybody is up to date in terms of where we are on that particular scheme and conscious chair that the cabinet member to my left wants wants to come in around this bit but it's obviously it's at your discretion thank you chief officer you were part of this committee the actual cabinet member is not part of this committee and i feel that you're answering these questions fully so yes you can continue thank you thank you so your second area was obviously seeking clarification and examination of the aln pressures which we absolutely recognise our |
| 00:50:19 | significance this particularly relates to the transfer of responsibilities around children post 16 who require specialist provision and i am going to turn to janette because we have been involved in long and robust discussions with welsh government about this transfer of responsibility and our concern around the pressures that that places on the local authority chair if i can bring janette in obviously because she's the expert in this area thank you chief officer yes of course you can bring janette in thank you thank you thank you |
| 00:50:50 | chair and and just to remind the the committee that this is something that we have flagged previously as a concern from when the the legislation was brought in that this responsibility would move over to us as a local authority and as claire has indicated we have challenged welsh government on the initial proposal that they shared with local authorities probably a couple of years ago now in terms of their formula that they were going to apply for this change in budget the current position is that welsh government hold the budget the decision making |
| 00:51:25 | process changed about two years ago where the local authority became responsible for decision making which had sat with welsh government prior to that but the funding allocated to that was maintained by welsh government and we have been reimbursed on a grant basis for the expenditure with regards to these post 16 placements it was noted by the region that the expenditure on what's referenced as is be so independent specialist provision the post 16 was relatively high on and you know compared nationally and this was challenged with regards to the formula that was being |
| 00:52:03 | proposed to allocate the funding in that the allocation didn't match the actual expenditure that had been agreed by welsh government officials at that time as the chief officer indicated we have put a very firm rebuttal back to to welsh government about that and that formula saying that you know from our perspective it doesn't represent accurately the level of need particularly for our region and a report was commissioned and provided to welsh government and there was some engagement around that but i think to be fair chief officer the response was |
| 00:52:38 | that we needed to have conversations with our local further education institute providers which which we did do and we didn't find any change in the provision that would then remove the for us to make those specialist placements we were advised that the the change would come in over a four-year period so there would be a reduction in year one towards the the formula allocation and then there would be a four-year implementation period to that being completed and you know we are we've faced this pressure on our anticipation of that formula being |
| 00:53:17 | what was stated in that initial consultation with us so we are waiting for the confirmation of what it will look like in terms of the actual allocation but that then would be the impact potentially for the next financial year. Thank you Jeanette that that was very comprehensive can i ask one question while i've still got you on this bit does this reflect the true scale of costs arising from maybe the possible grant loss from welsh government thank you it's it's what we're anticipating for that first year based on a four-year implementation once we get back to |
| 00:54:01 | that four years so there'll be a gradual reduction based on on the formula that was shared with us at that point when we get to that four-year process we anticipated quite a significant impact on the council in terms of the costs of these placements because the the process is that the local provision has to be considered first if the needs of that child cannot be met in the local provision then there is a we have to look towards these independent specialist provision to make that educational provision for learners and to say without any change in what is locally available |
| 00:54:40 | then the cost will remain but the budget will be significantly reduced that we receive on a formula basis thank you any chief officer thank you lovely thank you can i i know councillor mackie had other questions about inclusion but if i can do the early entitlement one and then perhaps we can go back to jeanette so early entitlement describes the provision for three-year-olds to receive early years education before they start in statutory nursery we have a statutory obligation to make that available for parents it's up to them whether they choose to access this or not |
| 00:55:15 | in flint show we have a really good network of what we call non-maintained providers so not maintained by the local authorities so we're talking play groups private day nurseries who are registered with the local authority to offer that provision and that is wrapped up in the welsh government's child care offer of 30 hours so it's 10 hours for education and then child care however in some of our locations around the county there isn't sufficiency of supply of those non-maintained providers often in rural areas so it has always |
| 00:55:47 | been the case that where where there isn't that local provision and parents require it then our schools have offered that 10 hours of early years education i did it myself when i was the head at grunand so those three-year-olds would join our nursery class our early years units to receive that provision that requires staffing at a particular level to meet obviously appropriate staffing regulations and what has happened over time is there has been there has become a discrepancy between how much the non-maintained providers are funded to deliver that and how |
| 00:56:22 | much our schools have been funded to deliver that so over time the welsh government have increased the amount of funding the rate per hour to deliver that education six pound forty and they have given the council grants to fund the non-maintained providers to make that provision on behalf of the council what hasn't kept pace is the level to which we have funded schools so we are conscious that this has been creating a pressure on schools the schools budgets that are making this provision so it's not all schools it's some schools dependent obviously on what the local offer is so we have |
| 00:56:58 | been concerned that there has been that discrepancy because the schools obviously are having to make additional staff to deliver that provision and yet what they've been receiving has been significantly less over a number of years than our non-maintained providers so we felt it was really appropriate in order to protect that provision and to recognize the additional pressure it was put from school budgets that we brought them in line with the non-maintained providers and that that is what that pressure that there is in the budget for your consideration is that a helpful explanation chair |
| 00:57:32 | that is a very detailed thorough explanation and it's also answered two of my questions that i had written down here as well so thank you for that clare i've got a list of speakers anything more coming back from councillor mackey reply okay okay i think janet wanted to add about councillor mackey's sort of further questions around i know you're saying councillor mackey about the importance of providing that provision for children with additional learning needs so whether i can just check |
| 00:58:03 | whether it was anything janet wanted to add sort of around the wider provision that's listed in the budget report janet these are developments as councillor mackey alluded to really in response to the impact of the pandemic where we have seen a significant increase in the level of need for our pupils from a principal's perspective we work hard to keep children in their local school as possible and specialist resource provision and supports that ongoing access to a mainstream educational provision with additional support and so these additional provisions that are within |
| 00:58:40 | the report have been developed in response to that and as noted by the chief officer our commitment to welsh medium provision having have the provision that we have at uskoll glan raven and transferring that through to uskoll myscarmon we have allocated where possible the alm provision grant that has come from from welsh government and we have received additional in-year funding and that we've been able to attribute to these these resource provision the risk as ever is that this grant does not continue into the next year which then makes |
| 00:59:15 | this requirement a challenge but they are you know i note the comments of councillor mackey they do support that ongoing engagement of our learners and are therefore incredibly important from our perspective to maintain for our learners alongside that is the reference to the specialist provision particularly in uskoll pencourt where we've seen quite a significant increase in the specialist provision and we have tried to be creative in terms of our ways of expanding the provision ahead of a longer-term development of increased capacity to ensure that more and |
| 00:59:56 | more children get access to that specialist intervention at a point of need and don't have to sit too long on a waiting list for that thank you janette and i've got two questions for janette which i thought would be appropriate at this point to actually ask is there going to be a review of the aln funding formula is that being considered at the moment or is that going forward and if it isn't will the modeling put additional pressure if it in the same format on the actual current budget we're doing quite a comprehensive piece of work across all areas of aln we're looking at our |
| 01:00:39 | specialist provision at our requirements and the committee will be aware that we commissioned somebody to work alongside of us and we're just in receipt of that draft report that we're working through at the moment around what our provision needs so that's the wider view of provision but yes we have done some modeling around the aln funding at the moment and and how that is allocated we do two different formulas with primary and secondary and emma's in the in the chamber there but we've we've done a piece of work looking at our understanding of the level of need currently |
| 01:01:12 | and what the financial demand would be to to meet that there's also a piece of work looking at the the formula that allocates funding to our specialist schools and we're starting that piece of work as well one other quick question which is on the i aln reform post 16 is there a potential potentially and i i think the challenge that we have is um obviously children come through become young people they have an entitlement to education i think what we do need to to be mindful of is that there was um recent case law that challenged the welsh government's |
| 01:02:04 | um position on that that should only be two years and three years in an exception um and we're just trying to interpret what that might mean for us going forward because potentially um a young person under al net is covered up until the age of 20 20 not 20 25 sorry of 25 and so there may be a demand for more than than the two-year allocation that was notionally made under the legislation thank you janette that's brilliant uh very full answer as usual uh back to the chief officer thank you chair and i think emma's going to |
| 01:02:43 | respond to councillor mackie's question about decarbonisation thank you chair um yeah just to pick up upon the um the 40 000 pound pressure that's been included for transition funding for decarbonisation schemes so we have got access to welsh government funding for capital investment into schools to decarbonize reduce the carbon emissions within those schools um at the moment there's two schools that are currently being looked at as to whether they can tap into that that funding effectively from welsh government but as a i suppose an unintended consequence of |
| 01:03:19 | that capital investment is in the short term before the savings are realized from the decarbonisation and reduction in energy costs there will be an increase in utilities standing charges and just whilst that scheme is ongoing so this 40 000 pound pressure is to alleviate some of pressure on the school's budgets whilst the capital program is is ongoing thank you thank you ever uh that leads on to my question on that as well um how long will the increased utility stand in charge impact schools and could this become a a recurring pressure um i think it's |
| 01:04:00 | just for the duration of that that capital scheme um the proposal is to keep this 40 000 pound in the budget as an ongoing pressure for future schemes so that as future schemes come on we've got that cost of money that's why it's been um labeled as transition funding just for any future schemes that that come on board on that program thank you for that answer um if we we're now on the list again now i've got a list of this is my current list so i've got councillor Fran Lister i've got councillor andrew parkhurst i've got cabinet member paul |
| 01:04:36 | wants to speak and cabinet member married eastwood who wants to speak so if we go to councillor Fran Lister first thank you thank you um i'm interested in the resource units um that hardin high school flint high school and there's going to be additional classrooms um specialist provision in pen cork i think you mentioned mice have read as well but that that's not in i think it was only primary that was in the report is there going to be more at mice have read as well i'm just wondering what the breakdown of that cost is um is this |
| 01:05:09 | this is now these resource units are already up and running so they already cost a certain amount emma you might be able to answer this is is the for flint high school resource the 0.2 um yeah 232 000 is that extra this year that's what this resource is going to cost extra because we've got more pupils and what does that equate to in kind of like in the number of staff that are there or perhaps does the money go to sort of a capitation for resources or is it for trips like what is that money and how is it spent i guess is what i'm asking um yeah it was the same |
| 01:05:45 | with the secondary resource in what in the welsh medium we obviously um voted on the capital spend project didn't we i'm assuming this is just the revenue cost for that rather than set because it's not set up yet is it um so again the same question really what does that 163 000 represent in terms of um yeah what's being received and i was also just wondering because we see these resource units come up at budget setting but we haven't ever had a report i don't think to the committee about what these resource units actually deliver and i think that might be quite an |
| 01:06:16 | interesting thing um for this committee to consider in the future um like its value in and and then there's just one thing that's in the back of my mind and i was just googling it um there's an na a n a h t kind of uh campaign at the moment isn't it about getting the barnet formula money from the uk government to welsh government and where is that money going and is it ring fenced for our schools um so i was just wondering what we can do as a committee to kind of um make sure that the money that is allocated from welsh government to schools actually makes |
| 01:06:51 | way to schools thank you councillor i i think i've got two two people who want to come back to you on your questions i've got janette online and i've also got emma who wants to speak okay um janette do you want to speak first and then i'll go to emma thank you thank you jeff um in in terms of the cost councillor lisa they they are revenue costs and so it will be um a level of staffing that has been allocated for each provision depending on the the number of pupils for if you think about the the flint provision those costs will have been incrementally rising |
| 01:07:31 | to absorb the numbers that were placed there because within that provision we placed pupils it started in year seven and it's incrementally um grown that cost there indicates the full cost of that provision we have been using the aln provision grant to cover that and provision in previous years and this is an anticipation if that that grant goes there is a level of capitation within that that funding to enable the the provision to run and that applies to to all of our specialist provision we have provisionally started the um the welsh media provision we're |
| 01:08:09 | with a small number of pupils this year and that's um the the request or the what's outlined within the document is the continuation of that provision into the the coming year in the next sorry the next financial year they've ever wanted to come in on on top of that yeah uh just for the councillor to come back on that for for additional question thank you councillor liston sorry just for clarity i'm just using flint high school as an example the two hundred and thirty two thousand pounds that's the cost of the base as it runs at the moment but it's previously been found through |
| 01:08:48 | the through grant funding yes so this isn't actually we're not increasing the number of staff there or the number of pupils there it's going to carry on operating as it always has done there will be an incremental rise um in next year for flint because there will be another year seven of pupils that will go through that's the cost that's anticipated to include that um that rise in the the next academic year thank you janette uh i'll pass over to emma jamison thank you thank you chair uh just to clarify the position on on how the um these pressures have been |
| 01:09:27 | costed so for example the hardin high school resource unit was agreed last year's budget so uh the impact of the full year um revenue costs is is reflected on that one at the flint high and the mice garmin resource units are from september 26 so it's only a part year pressure and there will be an incremental uplift next year to reflect the full year on that pressure but as janette says that is to cover the resourcing of the of the unit as it stands thank you yeah and chief chief officer claire homard yeah thank you and in response to council at |
| 01:10:01 | lister's questions about actually as a committee can you know we have an overview of obviously our real impression that's a you know a masterpiece of work that we've been undertaking haven't we janette and we would anticipate bringing forward a report to committee uh you know in the near future because we we have done that deep dive into all of our provision to try and better understand what the challenges are going to be for us going forward in terms of of provision that we are going to require um you know there is an indication in our strategic |
| 01:10:27 | outline plan of a potential investment in our specialist provision generally but yeah as part of that we've actually done a deep dive review into everything haven't we janette that we're actually just working through we've just received that report so we're just working through the implications of that at the moment but with the view that janette we would be bringing a obviously a detailed report forward for cabinet and scrutiny consideration obviously because of the links as to you know the capital program in the future janette was there anything you'd want to add to |
| 01:10:54 | that and we could include within that i think the council has listed this point was what provision do we have currently i mean i can share some information about that that we do have currently and but then that would be a part of that report going forward to say this is the existing provision and how we're looking to develop that uh thank you both for that um we've actually put it down to add our forward working plan on the list there so that it can be timetabled in to the actual schedule so thank everybody for that uh our next speaker is councillor andrew parkers thank you |
| 01:11:33 | councillor thank you chair i've got two questions um the first concerns holiday hunger provision um at the meeting of scrutiny meeting back in july it was agreed there would be payments during the summer holidays just gone and that during the autumn there would be an investigation into a more sustainable solution to be implemented early in 2026 so seeing nothing as a cost pressure it in this report do i assume that there is nothing earmarked for to address holiday hunger um the meeting last july was to my recollection um of the view that over a period of time this |
| 01:12:34 | needed to sort of wash its face as it were and be cost neutral um but that would be a phased approach and wouldn't happen overnight so you know one would imagine there would be some sort of cost pressure for next year at least in the first part of the year and what also concerns me is that there appears to be no provision for holiday hunger during this christmas holidays and i'm wondering and i'd like to ask the cabinet member for education whether there has been any discussion or consideration about this in cabinet um since that meeting of the scrutiny committee |
| 01:13:16 | in july um because it seems to me that if there hasn't and if there is no provision then children during this christmas period will be going hungry whilst others are enjoying their turkeys that's my first question and my second question is we see in this report a lot about the cost pressures and quite rightly so what we don't see in this report are any of the potential savings that might be offered up in the non-schools part of the budget i'm conscious that full council needs to agree the budget in the next well in you know two months time |
| 01:14:03 | and there seems to have been nothing in scrutiny that we can look at to see where savings might be made and and i'd like to know what the times scale is for that thank you chair thank you councillor that was actually one of my questions as well so i will actually delete that on my list i'll go to the cabinet member for education to answer this one so in relation to the holiday hunger provision it's my understanding that we followed the recommendation from the working group and it's been built into the base budget which is why it's not listed as an additional |
| 01:14:42 | cost pressure and it's being built into the base budget in line with the recommendation from the working group but perhaps if ever could confirm thank you yeah the pressure that was included in last year's budget reflected the full year and all of the school holidays throughout the full year so the summer holidays the christmas holidays and the easter holidays were all funded as part of that pressure that went into the 25 26 budget councillor parkhurst yeah thank you for that confirmation covenant member and emma does that mean that children who are eligible |
| 01:15:21 | will receive something during this christmas holidays that's correct yes uh councillor clark oh you have changed to a councillor chief officer chief officer changed to a councillor claire perhaps when i retire if i can pick up councillor parkhurst's question about efficiency work i can assure this committee that the portfolio has been through a very thorough process of reviewing all of its spend on every line its budget and has produced a detailed analysis of that and i'm not quite sure where that |
| 01:16:03 | information is going to be shared next in terms of the process but that work has been undertaken by the portfolio but what i would say to you is that there's there's there's virtually nothing left within the education portfolio in terms of efficiencies because we are operating so leanly but what we've done is a very detailed analysis of what that service is what it provides what risk rating we would consider it to be at currently and what the future risk would be for any reduction in funding to support that particular so so that work has been done |
| 01:16:35 | so obviously that i'm presuming that is going to come forward at some point obviously for for members considerations thank you chief officer is there any additional questions uh from uh councillor parkhurst well just one word and that is when terminus the chief officer i i would need advice for um i think we've got chat going on in between the meeting i've got next on my list uh councillor paul johnson so uh i think it's uh timely that we bring councillor paul johnson in thank you |
| 01:17:21 | only going to say to uh councillor mccain councillor mackie that the information on the uh joint archive was in the capital program report that was voted through council yesterday thank you thank you uh has anybody else got that councillor lister i mean do you want to ask your questions sorry i'll come in once okay i'm not sure if i've got i've got three pages of questions but i will reduce them down to concentrate on some of the main areas that one's already been asked and overall the budget position are all listed cost pressures essential and has every |
| 01:18:06 | opportunity to remove or defer non-essential items been exhausted and how confident are offers in the accurate pressures pending the final settlement i think the answer to your question is yes we have been we have been through and emma will attest to that so that she sits down with every service manager a senior manager within the service to go through the pressures that that you know they believe we do genuinely need to declare as i say we have removed some pressures after those discussions and as you can see we've highlighted some that we think are potential risks |
| 01:18:45 | i think we work on the base it's always better to consider worst case scenario and then be in a position to make sure the pressures are potentially factored in with the view that if they are not if grant funding continues then they can be withdrawn but to not identify them but i believe everything that is in the this report to you to death is absolutely essential for the ongoing delivery of our education services uh in addition to that are any of these cost pressures expected to rise further before stage three i think we do we we do our calculations based on the best information |
| 01:19:27 | that we have available at the time i'll bypass some of the other questions that i've got because some of them have partly been answered anyway so process and timing when will this committee have sight of the full set of budget uh solutions before going will we have sight of it before it be provided showing best case medium range and worst case positions following the settlement final settlement thank you thank you chair um i believe that the uh the proposals will be taken to corporate resources overview and scrutiny committee um in january um showing the impact of |
| 01:20:16 | the provisional settlement and then a further update will be provided following the final settlement um in terms of the range of options i'd have to liaise with the corporate finance manager to to discuss that whether whether it will be set as a range of options um i can't can't give an answer on that unfortunately uh thank you for that have we exhausted everybody asking questions apart from councillor lister no go to councillor lister no just to say i've comparing last year's uh stage two budgets with this year's and this is it's considerably less |
| 01:20:52 | this year i think that's to do with pay pressures and i think that's to do with the uh there are far less staff so uh you know the pay award is is going to cost us a lot less i noticed though as i was looking through that um in last year's stage two um there was a paragraph on top slicing the school's budgets and i would like it's not in this one and i hope that remains but i would like to add to the recommendations that we don't consider top slicing the school's budgets this year because um we can't thank you councillor lister for that oh we have got an initial question |
| 01:21:30 | from councillor mackey right okay let us a second okay okay so have we exhausted everybody who's actually spoken uh had their say on this because it's a very so we've got two hands showing one is the actual uh cabinet member for education news and culture and also even though he has already spoken uh councillor paul johnson wants to speak and we'll go to um councillor married eastwood um i just wanted to echo councillor mackey's frustrations in our nation in particular to the aln funding and to give assurance to the committee that during the in-person meeting with the cabinet |
| 01:22:18 | secretary yesterday there was a comprehensive and in-depth discussion with her collectively in relation to the challenges faced by local authorities by aln both in the delivery and and most especially the funding during that meeting we also expressed frustration about the the grant funding about the difficulties that presents to local authorities and i also managed to get onto the agenda the importance of support for our youth justice in particular in relation to slt and the support needed from the nhs and highlighted the grave concern that we've got in |
| 01:22:58 | to the change in potential funding for our youth services which will have a huge impact on our delivery on the belonging strategy so we managed to get all that on the table in front of the cabinet secretary yesterday i just want to provide that assurance uh thank you councillor it's just a shame that you weren't at full council yesterday but i i do understand that was an important meeting it's just a shame it clashed with the the way you were on the agenda for most of the recommendations we have three two recommendations on the table i would like to add that in addition |
| 01:23:37 | to the cabinet member of education meeting with welsh government i think that a letter should go from this committee to reinforce how important it is for this council that those mandatory requirements that we have to deliver is fully funded by welsh government so i would like to add that as a third recommendation to this so our first recommendation so we have got a third recommendation already that was uh proposed and seconded by camps the finalist and camps today four then yeah which was around the request that we don't consider |
| 01:24:17 | topping top slicing school budgets this year yes and so we have four four would be your suggestion that a letter be written to us thank you very much councillor markey so in total we have four recommendations so in front of us we've got review and comment on the education youth portfolio cost pressures two to review and comment on the school budget cost pressures which we have and then we've got the three which is the top slicing recommendation and four we've got a letter to welsh government from this committee |
| 01:24:58 | so sorry councillor mackie right so could i recommend suggest that the first two first three words review and comment and would rather have thoroughly scrutinized yep yep so that can be changed to that so i would like a proposal for all four please and a second so we've got a proposal and a second uh can i have a show of hands please for four that's unanimous chair that is brilliant thank you thank you very much this committee well i thought we'd be much longer on item um matter of clarification from uh councillor paul johnson it's quite quite simple really so uh |
| 01:25:54 | bearing mind about the top slicing that do i understand from this committee that they see that a is a prioritization issue in terms of budget spending just speaking on behalf of this that is what i get the gist of that this committee as we said last year and we said the year before we do not want cuts to this uh budget and top slicing one of my roles as cabinet member for finance i attend all the cabinet meetings as this one and that is very helpful in the conversations that i'll be having |
| 01:26:41 | with those committees and when they're looking at their budgets thank you thank you councillor johnson i don't think our position has changed in in all the years that we've actually been part of this committee we have always stated that how important education is for everybody i think claire homard wants to come back on just for one matter no just briefly to say may emma and janet now be from this item of the agenda thank you thank you janet rock and also emma thank you so much for coming it has been very much appreciated by this committee okay our next item is item six |
| 01:27:27 | which is sickness absent report for schools and you'll find this on page 45 to 54 and i will hand over to sharon thank you very much thank you chair shane carney our head of hr nod is going to help lead this report this morning uh borrowed our power um i will briefly take you through the summary i understand this is a report that was specifically requested by committee obviously i do general overview of sickness absence to corporate resources overview and scrutiny so obviously the purpose of this report is to give you an overview of the absence |
| 01:28:10 | rates for schools for the past three financial years based on recorded absences and obviously for quarter one and quarter two in year to date um there are four main areas it's covering those absence rates for 22 23 24 and so on an analysis of the patterns and reasons for absence a summary of both short and long term and i guess a section on how we can do targeted strategies to improve absenteeism in our schools um at section 101 there's a number of um statistical analysis there that you can see and the breakdown of absence rate in terms of percentage and days lost per fte |
| 01:28:51 | for the benefit of this committee because i think not all of you sit on crosk um most organizations private organizations report on absence rate as a percentage we are required um through our public accountability measures to do it as an fte and there's a standard that we all have to adhere to so we're trying to give you both here but if you wonder why we constantly have fte that's because it's it's a requirement on us from welsh government so there is a methodology that we have to follow and that's what we have to report on so we've |
| 01:29:25 | indicates uh key findings from the chartered institute of personal development of september 25 do indicate a sharp increase in sickness absence levels across uk workplaces they also show that the average number of sickness absence days lost has risen to 9.4 days up from 7.8 in 2023 it all further indicates that that reflects broader societal trends including an aging workforce and a rise in long-term health conditions you can see in table one that flincher schools and data in 22 23 and 24 25 we're slightly above that and and for 25 26 based on the outturn so |
| 01:30:08 | the actual figures for quarter one and quarter two the forecast is 7.42 for this year which is a corporate target of eight days per fte so let's hope that those figures maintain for the quarter three and quarter four i think our data is consistent with the findings in the cipd health and well-being report we are aware and in fact it's been noted already in this committee about impact on our children from covid we see that impact on our staff across the piece not just schools and some of that again is we have seen the impact on the backlog with nhs you know the |
| 01:30:47 | ability of some of our staff to get diagnosis and treatment plans it does impact on their ability to return to quick work as quickly as we would like and that's that's a challenge we do try and provide as much support as possible in paragraph one 102 obviously i've given an overview of our employee assistance program and then again in paragraph 104 i've given an overview of a number of the other interventions and support that's available so our in-house occupational health team which is there to support on top of the eap education support we do need to review the |
| 01:31:28 | absence management policy for schools and there is a some schools have their own and that's the policy some schools have their own there is a model policy but they don't all operate the same so that is one of the challenges that we have but the model policy hasn't been reviewed for a number of years so our recommendation is that it is education consultative committee obviously provides a forum for engagement and we have a raft of support where we can flexible work in career breaks careers like you know carers leave and so far we do as a hr team |
| 01:32:05 | try and support and work with the leadership teams in the schools it is their responsibility and obviously we will try and help them with running reports identifying triggers and helping them to support those attendants as far as possible but different schools have different needs as as as do individuals so we do try and tailor the support as much as we can it's very small team that's allocated to support the schools as we have across the piece so from a hrbp perspective you know there are three people who are trying to support all of our schools so |
| 01:32:39 | we're really limited in terms of how much support we can give given how many employees are based across that school base but i'm happy to take any questions thank you for that overview of the report that's that's very very helpful yes i have got a list of questions as usual but i will let the committee ask theirs first first on my list is councillor david mackay thank you very much and i begin by proposing a recommendation an additional recommendation that the model policy be updated and be made available to schools i think that is absolutely vital at this moment |
| 01:33:17 | because schools should be using the model policy that is going to just create havoc across the piece so that is vital that we get that done for a start thank you very much all the nods now then i'm going to go to paragraph 1.02 right i have never seen results presented in this way before and and i can't it took me quite a long time to get my head around it so if we look at the first one for 22 23 we've got in quarter one the highest reason for absence was stress and anxiety and that's blue in quarter two the highest reason was covid in quarter three |
| 01:34:03 | the highest reason was infections and in quarter four the highest reason was stress and anxiety so it could have been that it's not really telling us about individual issues and it could be confused people could think that they're more related than they are so that that confused me a great deal and at first when we look at the the charts for the term absences i can well understand that infections are an issue because our schools of course are the biggest spreader of infections that we have in the county and it's quite and and i think |
| 01:34:54 | in yeah so i mean that they're spread across that those results are shown spread across the whole of the quarters so for short term absences i that is exactly what i would expect because they're there aren't they a whole you know 25 30 infection spreading beings in front of one or two people yeah they're going to pass it on right now then what i was worried about is the other table the long-term illnesses when we look at this i see stress mental health and anxiety i'm not quite sure what these figures are because |
| 01:35:45 | earlier on in that area i was confused about we've got one stress anxiety and mental health and then we've got mental health issues oh i can't work i tell you i can't work out those but i'll stick with this one right stress mental health anxiety that is the one issue which i hear about when i go into schools and i'm sure we all must if we go into schools i hear staff say i cannot do any more i hear head teachers say i have to do 10 hours on a sunday just to keep on top of the work i've got and i'm really really really concerned |
| 01:36:42 | now i know we provide support but i've been there you don't recognize when you're getting close to the edge you just go over the edge because something happens that's what happened to me one phone call that was all it took one phone call on a cold cold miserable evening when i was just about to go home right and i told my wife i rang my wife for support and she wasn't there and i left a message on the answering machine and when i didn't come home she took that to the police and said i'm worried about my husband so we really need to be there |
| 01:37:29 | before that is what i'm trying to say we really have to and and it's clearly a problem if we look at this graph there's only you know it's all the way across there every quarter um i don't know what we can do i don't know what we can do but i think we're we're riding the perfect storm for want of a better phrase um and i am i just hope there's something more we can do i'm sorry that's already all i can say okay thank you councillor mackie looking at those graphs which are done by a colleague i think if they'd have been presented in the same way as the long-term |
| 01:38:12 | sick that would have been easier for you so i will i will ask her to rework that and i will and i circulate it so that you've got it just for just for completeness in terms of the stress mental health and anxiety it gives us all concern and that's consistent across it's the number one reason for absence across the whole council it's not just schools um so one of the things that we are looking at we've done a rewrite of the policy corporately and we're trying to change the emphasis so it's about supporting attendance at work so this is about how do we spot and do |
| 01:38:45 | interventions before they go off six this is about managers spotting the size having the conversation sitting down doing a plan to prevent the absence not reacting when they've gone off so that's what i would expect to see in the new model policy and then it would be the training and the support that goes with that we do um refer to um mind the charity do a whole host of what they call wellness action plans and they're all accessible because there's no point us trying to create a tool when you've got the experts like mine that have done it so we do give |
| 01:39:18 | accessibility and support for that we also ask that for any any absence where it's mental health related that there's an immediate stress risk assessment done and that there is an immediate referral to occupational health we don't differentiate whether that's work related stress or home because if you've indicated it's normally there's normally a tipping point and it may be very minor either at home or work but it's the one that sets you off so we're very alive to that and we will do all that we can we do send you know give as much resource as we can but here's |
| 01:39:53 | a challenge um the skills are short on resource my team are short on resource to support but we're trying to change the emphasis to say look if you are um awake alive to these challenges you spot the scenes the signs you do the early intervention you provide the support then obviously it's it's correct for your employee because you're caring for their well-being but you may actually prevent the absence as well so that's very much the approach we're seeking to take thank you uh Sharon for that uh Claire Homard wants to come in on this one as well thank you |
| 01:40:26 | Claire thank you chair and I think it's important perhaps we set some wider context around that as well I mean I you know I think what hopefully the report provides for you is an overview of actually all of the support mechanisms that we have put in place to try and wrap around our schools to you know make sure they've got access to the appropriate support and information as well don't forget they will have a relationship with their school improvement advisor the head teacher with their SIA they will meet regularly you know our SIAs are one of the first sort of |
| 01:40:56 | pairs of eyes on our head teachers as it were and they will obviously share if they are concerned about a colleague we have a really collegiate approach in Flintshire where head teacher colleagues will contact senior officers confidentially as well if they are concerned about a colleague and I think that is real testament to the culture here in Flintshire they'll say just just checking that you perhaps you know perhaps somebody's had a bereavement or they're going through a difficult personal time do you know nine times out of ten we do know |
| 01:41:28 | because we have such a good working relationship with all of our head teachers but the way that they look after each other and support each other is not really reflected in this report I can assure you that you know that that does happen I think Sharon referenced you know this you know getting it's getting there in time isn't it not allowing the situation to deteriorate and that's one of the things we will be discussing with the head it's not come directly to us from the head teacher federation yet and we meet with both federations very regularly I also meet with |
| 01:41:58 | the chairs of the federations informally in between meetings as well to you know what are bubbling up what do we need to be thinking about as of yet we've not had a formal request through the federation to look at that sort of just-in-time type training but actually something I'm taking to them to say is this something aligned obviously with the refresh of the policy that you know we need to be providing one of the things that you've referenced there Councillor Mackie is the workload and I'll focus there's workload pressures on everybody in the system as resources reduce on |
| 01:42:31 | portfolio staff as well as obviously our colleagues in schools so I think what what's really critical then is what are we doing to manage that workload now a lot of that workload has come through the overload of national initiatives change of the curriculum al net you know and we've talked about that many times in this committee and you will know that through my association of the directors of education in wales and you know that I was the chair for two years until relatively recently one of the things that we were working on with welsh government was |
| 01:43:03 | how do we have a strategic education workforce plan and within that how are we ensuring that initiatives new policies from welsh government are not inadvertently then creating extra workload so I sat as part of those working groups and whilst I can't go into any more detail at the moment because it's still quite confidential I can assure you that I think welsh government in the new year will be clearly outlining their their approach now to how strategically you know the workforce is supported how things like government policy so there has to be now a workload impact |
| 01:43:41 | assessment undertaken on any new policy proposed by welsh government because that's that's been critical because as I say we were all overloaded work we've had a range of initiatives one of the agreements and we've done we undertook that piece of work within the education portfolio as well probably 18 months ago now where I asked all of the senior managers to look at what are we what are we contacting schools about what information are we asking for have we got that information already because we shouldn't be asking them for it if we've got it already so we did undertake |
| 01:44:12 | that piece of work and I am pleased to say that you know I believe that we do not onerously put pressure on our schools to for information if we can find it somewhere else we will one of the is very focused on at the moment is the workload of head teachers outside of their regulated working hours and I can give this committee the absolute assurance that we do not contact head teachers at weekends and during school holidays we have all of their mobile phone numbers for emergency purposes and they're happy that obviously we we keep those but unless it is an |
| 01:44:48 | absolute emergency which may be the school's on fire or there's been sadly perhaps a death of a we do not contact our head teachers in their protected time we do not send emails you know after the end of the working day so I think we've tried to very actively support our head teachers by the management of the workload in that way so I just wanted to give you that that assurance but I know it is obviously something that Welsh Government I think in the new year will be will be clearer about as well so I hope that's helpful Chair. Thank you as usual Claire that was a very |
| 01:45:24 | detailed very thorough reply so thank you for that I've got quite a long list here of people want to speak next on my list is Councillor Jason Chalkoff thank you. Thank you Chair yeah looking at the charts on 47 48 on the which is it's mainly stress related absent graphs there is a consistent quartile trend from year to year with with a dip quarter two early summer and a steep jump up in quarter three you know what do these trends tell us and is there a link to the you know to the summer while people are looking forward to the summer holidays they're generally a little bit |
| 01:46:02 | more buoyant and then once they've had they enjoyed the holidays that much do you think or do I really want to go back to school you know so do we have do we have any anything we can put to it because there's definitely trends there isn't it over the four years yeah four of course Sharon could you yeah sorry yeah I mean I haven't looked at it specifically we see that across the council as well you do and you know it gets tough you get the lot that the longer days the darkness or all of those things contribute and and and and yeah |
| 01:46:39 | we do we do see those patterns we can go down to it into some more detail we also have a whole of new recruits often at the start of September so when you're quarter three so there's a whole host of variables because clearly the school year works differently to the corporate year and so we do we could probably do some more analysis on that for you but yeah we do see seasonal variations across the whole of the council too you know where you go into cold and flu season as you're going into the winter then that naturally impacts on absence levels |
| 01:47:10 | can I just quickly come back I was a like a low end manager for 23 years there and I suffered badly with stress when I first started and then you become battle hardened but then I trained to be a I was a mental health first aided for the last 10 years of work and I found that was really good because I get people in my team or people who knew they would come to me sometimes they're a bit they don't like going to perhaps the hierarchy but they come to me and I remember talking to out and he said I'm not coming to work mental coming in the NDK unless you know and sometimes |
| 01:47:44 | work is it's a safe haven for them with mental health issues you know if they're at home on their own they're mulling over things so I don't know whether you'd do that but it's I found it very useful mental health first aid yeah we have mental health champions and mental health first aiders across we're not sure how many there are in schools I don't hold the detail for that but Claire may be able to yeah back to Claire thank you no thank you no so I couldn't give you the numbers because obviously it's a person to the schools but I do know just from the bottom of |
| 01:48:14 | their signatures that we've got a number of head teachers who are trained mental health first aiders and obviously you know are providing that support then as I say and the education support charity I know has been very well received and we regularly make sure that all of their updates are passed through to schools and I've heard testament from individual head teachers who have said the support from that particular charity was an absolute lifeline and they've really recommended it to their colleagues I think it's as you say it's around the culture isn't it and people feeling |
| 01:48:42 | feeling you know that they can talk about it so not just from the pupil perspective but you know from a staff perspective as well you know we've implemented across all of our schools the welsh government approach to emotional health and well-being so actually on all of our schools have done that and that would have included surveying staff as well as pupils so again that's another strand within our schools in terms of providing that support so yeah I mean the reason I put my hand up chair was even to put it is that we know the autumn term is a particularly |
| 01:49:14 | long term from September through to Christmas obviously with the one week half term break you know at the end of October and you may recall that a couple of years ago welsh government did undertake a consultation on changes to the school year and one of the rationales for that proposed change was to potentially break up the length of terms to give staff more and spread it out more evenly but unfortunately a lot of the workforce didn't want some of the changes and actually there wasn't sufficient evidence empirical evidence really to underpin the rationale |
| 01:49:48 | for some of those changes so that consultation didn't really go anywhere but yet the autumn term is uh yeah it's a bit of a killer when you're in school thank you Claire next on our list is Councillor Andrew Parkhurst thank you chair and thank you uh Sharon in particular for this report I think it's very valuable what you have produced and uh quite illuminating um I I think we should also thank the um teaching staff who you know have managed in very difficult and increasingly difficult circumstances to have reduced the sickness absence and you know that is you know |
| 01:50:31 | really quite you know remarkable and you know commendable um I hear all the good things that we've done to you know support support teachers and and and teaching staff and all that is good my concern I suppose is that some of the more sort of corporate measures if I can use that word or executive measures perhaps is a better word um I'm actually contributing to some of the stress and anxiety and mental health issues which we have heard about so we've we've heard about you know one school where um it has been suggested that the governor |
| 01:51:14 | should resign en masse we've heard another school where there are serious safeguarding and disciplinary concerns which it is alleged aren't being adequately addressed and then we've got the in in the eyes of many people the the the unnecessary closure of of schools combined with you know responses not being provided when they could have been and you know all all that must add up to the stress experienced by the teachers and staff who are affected and and I really just wonder if we're doing enough to you know curtail that and if we're not actually |
| 01:51:59 | adding to the problems that the teachers already face yep uh I think Claire wants to answer this one um I and I need to be careful here chair because some of these matters are confidential and we've identified that we will be having a report part two so um I have to reject Councillor Parker's suggestion uh that the council has suggested that governors resign en masse that is factually incorrect okay that's factually incorrect um the local authority has processes that it needs to use in terms of schools causing concern those processes are in train um so I |
| 01:52:48 | don't really want to say no other but to suggest that I have suggested or the council said that masses incorrect keep clear for for your explanation uh councillor parkers do you want to come back on your no not really but there are lots of um you know suggestions going around which may or may not be um true but it's often the perception is everything and there is a perception that schools have been placed under enormous pressure and that must be affecting their staff's mental health thank you councillor uh Claire uh thank you chair I think as members of this committee |
| 01:53:37 | would also appreciate the local authority has a responsibility to address issues in schools where performance is not sufficient and learners are suffering because of a poor quality of education so we have that responsibility as well as a council and whilst I appreciate that you know any kind of process that we involve a school with in terms of you know supporting and challenging their performance will create some stress we also have a moral responsibility to do so because our responsibility as a council is to ensure that our schools are delivering |
| 01:54:06 | a quality education and sometimes unfortunately things are the case that that is not being done effectively and we have to appropriately intervene but you've had reports to this committee before around our school performance monitoring processes for example and we have given you that assurance that we do those as sensitively and as carefully as we can but sometimes difficult conversations need to be had because at the end of the day our learners are suffering if we do not address those particular issues thank you for your response uh can we go |
| 01:54:36 | to councillor Fran Lister now thank you thank you thank you Sharon for the report um but I am sorry I don't know that I can support the report with the words that I'm reassured that there are mechanisms in place to support um yeah maybe maybe the verbal responses might give me um greater confidence and I mean that I can but um beyond the report the data doesn't go deep enough um and there is like there's not really a willingness to look at patterns or high risk groups and root causes so we can't claim to be doing the preventative work um I'll give an example |
| 01:55:20 | of a group and that's completely missing from the report women aged 30 to 40 particularly mothers national evidence presented to parliament this year shows that this group is one of the largest groups leaving the profession and when you understand the reality it's not surprising the emotional and practical load of raising a family and the constant sort of mental organizing and worry sits on top of a job that's already demanding you're expected to provide high energy high quality engaging teaching every day in fact you hold yourself you know you hold those high |
| 01:55:53 | expectations of yourself but when it becomes too much there's nowhere to hide in a classroom and you feel like you're failing you're failing professionally and you're failing your family as well so I want to put on record that if you are a flincher teacher and you find yourself in that position you are not failing you are an extraordinary you're doing an amazing job but you're exhausted because the impossible is being asked of you I welcome the reference to flexible working in the report and on paper that sounds great |
| 01:56:26 | but in the real world under three million annual reductions to school budgets it's not realistic schools can't offer that because there's no capacity and and yeah so support services have place viva and the other thing occupational health counseling but they can't fix a system that's pushing people to breaking point and and it needs structural change work-life balance isn't an individual choice it's cultural it's structural and it's shaped by leadership and and it's shaped by how we choose to resource our schools and and that's where you know well-being is either |
| 01:57:04 | protected or destroys it starts here it starts with the collective responsibility of counselors of officers because well-being rises or falls on the structures that we choose to put in place and the resources we choose to put in place if we want to keep teachers in the profession we must be willing to understand and act on the causes and not just the symptoms which I'm afraid this report it responds to the symptoms of a broken system I could have spoken about many groups today I could have spoken about men's mental health and teaching I could talk about |
| 01:57:35 | colleagues navigating the menopause I could talk about NQTs leaving under you know enormous pressure in there before they complete their induction but I chose to focus on this demographic because it's it's my own experience but the point is that this report doesn't it doesn't point to any of those it doesn't discuss it it doesn't discuss the root causes of why teachers and support staff in school are experiencing such difficulties with coping with their anxiety and when what's needed is meaningful prevention and honest dialogue of what's driving people |
| 01:58:11 | to long-term absence or out of the professional together so yeah I'm sorry I can't support this report I'll come in first thank you for your honesty there because I know that takes that takes a lot of courage and having been a working mother all of my life I know some of those challenges myself and I accept if you think that the report is not detailed enough I from my perspective I was told we required an overview ordinarily if it was one of our scheduled reports we do go into greater levels of detail more than happy to do that going forward |
| 01:58:48 | also pleased that you mentioned menopause of women because yeah equally we see lots of challenges for that group particularly at the moment I'm not going to comment on the system because I think the system is determined by somebody other than myself but I'm grateful for your your honesty and your feedback and more than happy to reflect that in a future report uh France oh sorry Claire do you want to come in if I may thank you and again I you know really appreciate Councillor Lister's you know personal reflections there it is really challenging isn't it at the end of the day |
| 01:59:25 | we have a system that's you know it starts at the Welsh Government level in terms of education policy I've referenced you know the work that has been you know done over the last few years to really start thinking more strategically about the workforce and how actually decisions are impacting on them on a day-to-day basis I too was a working mother you know I was a teaching head in a small school and took very limited maternity leave so what you know I've been there myself you know juggling with a husband working away so I absolutely recognize the pressures that many of |
| 01:59:54 | you know our women in particular within our workforce and not denigrating dads either family circumstances are varied I think you know the challenge is that you know we we I believe try and do as much as we can strategically as a portfolio to manage that workload within the sort of the national context the challenge then is obviously it then you know we work in a system don't we have delegated budgets to schools local management of schools so it then has to then go down to the next level obviously with to the leaders within schools |
| 02:00:24 | in terms of how obviously they are making decisions about how they're deploying their resources how they are catering for the well-being and the support for their staff so you know we're trying to support the leaders who are trying to support their staff and obviously governors have a role in that as well so it's a multi-layered system isn't it and there are challenges at every level but I would hope you know we can reassure councillor Lester that actually here in Flintshire we try and work together as much as we can you know you as councillors the role that you undertake |
| 02:00:52 | the decisions that you make what the work we do as officers you know and the support we then try to provide to our schools you know obviously through our HR services through our occupational health services through the support they get through the portfolio in terms of their school improvement advisor you know and with officers we're all trying to work collectively to what is to manage what is a very very challenging system for everybody. Thank you Claire for coming back on that one. I'll leave my questions to the end but yes I agree with councillor Lester |
| 02:01:28 | it's a very difficult subject it's a very emotive subject which possibly touches and affects everybody not in our personal lives and we see it within the schools itself and it's something that yeah I will I take to my heart as well. I've got Lynn Bartlett next on my list and then I'll ask my questions so Lynn please. Thank you chair and thank you to those who've shared personally today it is a difficult subject to talk about. My question is about phased return I found as a head teacher that was one of the most powerful tools I had at my disposal |
| 02:02:09 | when people were on long-term sick for whatever reason if you could get them back in the building without piling everything on them on day one you could actually get people successfully back to work but it could be slow and there are financial challenges attached to that so I just wondered if things have changed or if phased return is still a tool available to head teachers. Thank you. Yes thank you yeah phased return is something that we use across the piece I agree it's a really powerful tool and it can enable you as you say just to get somebody through the door you know |
| 02:02:49 | obviously the the length and duration of a phased return depends on potentially the the reason for the absence how long that absence has been we've also started having conversations around linked absences because we've um we're aware that if some people have been in the hospital been off for a very long time they'll say well just give me another month because I'm not sure because they're fearful that I'm going to come back and I'm going to go off sick again I'm going to hit the trigger so it's actually if you could link it and say well if it was within |
| 02:03:17 | a week or two of you coming back and it's for the same thing you might tie it as a single absence just again to give that confidence and get people back through the door so we are trying to be as possible in trying to find supportive mechanisms to a assist people and to prevent absence where we can but to get people back at that earliest opportunity when they have had to take a period of absence which we all have to take at some point I think is inevitable thank you thank you has that answered all your questions lin yes thank you yeah thank you okay I have got |
| 02:03:53 | a question from a cabinet member wanting to speak on this committee he isn't part of this committee however on this occasion I will allow him to speak thank you chair appreciate that it was just to be honest I was listening to the conversation and it is very much educational kind of bias obviously because that's the committee and noting that two members of the committee have actually given their own personal experiences and a third one who's actually given an in-depth personal experience of the actual service itself and something that Sharon said it isn't just about |
| 02:04:27 | education this is the largest this stress anxiety and mental health issues is the largest issue across the county across this across this council I don't think it's by I don't think it's by anything that people have designed I think it's just it's our work isn't it it's that the workload increases and it's because of efficiencies cuts funding changes that's what happens and it's really tough and I don't just mean for officers either I mean officers yes it's highlighted because we talk about that quite clearly and yet you get a lot of personal stuff that comes from the councillors |
| 02:05:01 | that actually state the same thing so we're all suffering aren't we we're all suffering the same thing I'm just wondering so I just wanted to make the point that it isn't specific to education I'm not under undermining education at all but every committee could probably say these things and I think it probably needs a bigger discussion through HR just to understand that and to find some kind of corporate support and I know it's there as well I know there's a lot of corporate support but a recognition that officers and members we suffer the same and I don't know how |
| 02:05:31 | we deal with that but it's probably worth the conversation that it isn't specific to one area it's across the breadth of the council thank you councillor for that and I do take that on board but I think that education when you actually look at it across a whole UK statistics etc education does seem to impact more than other areas and other sectors because of the actual stress of going to classrooms etc and the impact of that can be quite detrimental so I appreciate where you've come from but I'll take it on board if you look at the statistics and details |
| 02:06:13 | education is affected at a higher level to that right I'd just like to ask my questions now some of them have been answered I just want to go through a few of mine it actually follows on from what councillor Jones has just said what targets of interventions are we putting into place to address these root causes rather than just the symptoms I'll let you answer that one then I'll come with the other ones thank you yeah my targets are around managing the attendance obviously the root cause will differ from area to area so it would be really difficult almost |
| 02:07:03 | impossible because the root cause differs service to service and you know councillor Jones just alluded to it it is a it's a societal issue and lots of people who offer as a result stress it's not just stress at work it's because of all of the pressures in their personal life cost of living all of the things that go and wrap around that it's not it's rarely one thing it's a number of things the only thing we can do meaningfully is to have proper honest conversations with our staff to understand what are their particular circumstances and so we do in all of our policies |
| 02:07:39 | whilst we have corporate triggers and schools triggers in terms of taking through process what we say is there is discretion for the manager and the leader in terms of how they deal with that person we can't treat everybody the same the process needs to be the same but in terms of outcomes and interventions that has to be led by the individual so I don't think I could put a target on the on the root cause but I just don't think we I don't think I could report on it or anything meaningfully with that because it will differ person to person school to school and |
| 02:08:10 | across the council so I don't think I could do that happily have a discussion if somebody thinks differently thank you for your answer and for your honesty on your answer thank you for that what will be the fundamental differences in the reviewed policy and how will this ensure school leaders are equipped and confident to use it consistently across the schools and I think that's the purpose of the review of the policy because what we've identified is that the corporate policy and the model schools policy are misaligned in terms of time scales triggers you know so |
| 02:08:48 | and so I think some head teachers are reporting actually that's a bit frustrating perhaps the school's policies in some ways perhaps are a little bit too generous so then that's not enabling them to take action swiftly because at the end of the day absolutely right that the individual who is suffering the absence needs to be appropriately supported but actually that absence is having an impact on the organization so it's how how we support our head teachers to balance those two issues so I think you know that's why the discussion I think with our head teachers federation will be |
| 02:09:18 | really important in developing that policy going forward to really understand where they feel the policy isn't supporting them sufficiently and what they feel the tools that they need perhaps that they don't have and then so we'll work through that with them we've got a really good track record of creating little working groups of our head teachers across our you know primary special and secondary so we've got everybody's perspective small schools large schools because the issues are you know are varied and then we would draft a policy we would then consult on it you know with |
| 02:09:47 | our with our schools to get to that consensus and then there would be as well the discussion of potential training offer around that as well so if head teachers feel that's something they they need in terms of refreshing their skills in terms of attendance management procedures and again keeping flagging most importantly all the support mechanisms that are available to them I don't know if Sian if you've got anything you can add yeah I mean if I just pick up on the the the difference between corporate policy and schools policy so corporate policy is that the the triggers |
| 02:10:16 | I guess for intervention are 10 days or three occasions in a row in 12 months for schools it's three periods of uncertified absence in a term or three self-certified absence in a term or a combination of the above or eight times in three terms or unacceptable patterns of behaviour so it's it's open to interpretation and obviously the term the nature of it making quite a challenge for them what I would like to say is I think a new policy because the other one is quite old would be far more modern it will take consideration of different approaches it will be written in a more |
| 02:10:51 | supportive manner which is what we've just done with the corporate one and that doesn't mean we haven't looked at it probably about two or three years ago along with regional colleagues we did try and do a model policy for the whole of north wales and we just couldn't get that one approved by the trade unions so it kind of stopped at that point because again what we're trying to do is make sure that when we are we are running data and we're trying to benchmark we're comparing like with like and if we were operating a model policy across the piece that would be much easier for us |
| 02:11:22 | and we do again regularly liaise with hr colleagues from neighbouring authorities to see you know have they introduced something are they doing something we're not is there an intervention that we could learn from that we could adopt so we constantly try and work together to see what we can introduce that may improve the process thank you chair and we can produce a model policy it is up for every to decide whether or not they adopt it we would always recommend that's why we provide model policies but we have to respect at the end |
| 02:11:58 | of the day thank you claire we've got wendy white online who'd like to ask a question hello yes it's just to add a comment in response to the review i'm sure that the education la are aware that the catholic schools have a ces a catholic education service policy which they are in the process or have already adopted it is different from the la policy at the moment but i think it might be interesting to to look at that in liaison to the review particularly as the differences largely relate to timescales which claire has referred to and which |
| 02:12:55 | may be of interest and helpful thank you thank you right i'll take councillor dave haley on this one i think that's going to have to be our last speaker on this is if that's okay just yeah okay councillor dave haley please thank you could i just seek clarification from claire over the mismatch between the corporate absence policy and schools one are you actually suggesting that some schools may be making a financial loss because their policy is out of step with what the council is actually recommending and that if they did |
| 02:13:53 | if their governing body did adopt what's going to be the corporate policy then it may be able to they may be able to reduce some of their deficit yeah thank you councillor haley obviously the reason for the review is not financially motivated let's let's be clear about that the reason for the review is that we recognize that there is a mismatch between the corporate policy and the model policy for schools and as sharon's described there it's really quite complicated isn't it the different sort of levels of potential intervention for absence so |
| 02:14:31 | in the first in the first instance it's about having a policy that is modern fit for purpose is more reflective all the focus on prevention and support rather than action but then having a consistent approach then a more consistent approach to the management of absence but obviously if a member of staff is absent then the school is going to be incurring a cost because obviously if it's a teacher that you know there needs to be a teacher in front of that class so anything that can be done to prevent absence in the first place will help reduce costs |
| 02:15:01 | and the burden on schools and then anything to effectively manage absence you know and deal with that as efficiently as possible again could potentially bring a cost benefit to schools so you're right to raise it councillor haley but it's not necessarily the motivator the motivator is about having a policy that supports school leaders to effectively manage you know absence or attendance within their schools i think sharon may want to add to that i guess just to add one of the the things that we've we've just developed from a corporate perspective which i would seek |
| 02:15:31 | to do with schools is we have done a separate policy for managing chronic illnesses so this is about those individuals who've got chronic underlying issues and it's around how what can we do to ensure that we keep them in work and they don't go off so these are long-term illnesses under the equality act so that there's a clear focus on preventing them going off and keeping them in work so that's a shift as well because we're seeing more and more people with complex health issues and so we have to take a different approach yeah clare very briefly and i think that |
| 02:16:03 | reflects some of council listers comments as well which i think is really important and just to reassure wendy obviously as the representative the diocese when we we have done that consult yes of would make sure that we are referencing your particular policy and we would always consult with both dioceses anyway around a policy such as this that obviously impacts the workforce in both maintained and voluntary aided schools thank you clare right we're coming to the recommendations now so the first recommendation i'd like to alter slightly the committee acknowledges |
| 02:16:37 | the sickness absence levels in schools and is encouraged that there are appropriate mechanisms in place to support school leaders to affect efficiently manage the health and well-being of workers i feel that the most of the committee should be able to support that change of wording and i would also we've also got a recommendation too that was added for the modeling policy so chair that was that the model policy be updated and made available to schools yeah and i would like to add to that that it is a recommendation from this committee |
| 02:17:18 | to schools that they actually use that policy if and i want that as i recommendation too if the committee agree and i'd also like to add a third one that the yearly sickness absent report is brought here yearly but detailed in detailed and if everybody's happy with those three recommendations can i have uh sorry you need to do your mic oh sorry so sorry everybody um i think i mean i really felt what you said it really came right through to me i thought you said perhaps tell me if i'm wrong that it was the corporate situation |
| 02:18:08 | that was the big issue for as far as you were concerned is it possible to have something in the recommendation that reflects the the effects of the corporate situation because unless we put something in there it's just going to go away and i don't know what we can do but to me that was that was the big thing that you said that it's not just the individual it's the corporate situation because i don't think anyone's looking at that you know i think that was that that was the light bulb moment for me |
| 02:18:49 | what you said so is it possible to say that the committee has concerns about the effects of the corporate situation or something like that how decision making you know at the top okay so if we look at uh the committee acknowledges the sickness absence levels in schools and the corporate decision making yeah processes yeah are we all right with the word encourage that we're encouraged that there are appropriate mechanisms in place to support school leaders to effectively manage the health and well-being of |
| 02:19:42 | workforce if we're if we're happy with all of that and we're happy with all three recommendations can i have councillor mackey and a seconder thank you and if that's the case can i have everybody to support yeah thank you very much on that right we're now on 20 past 12 we have two agenda items can we have a quick 10 minute break a comfort break and so can i compute i know can i say that just under the 10 minutes can we go back here at half 12 so thank you online councillor healy did you want to i'm going to have to submit apologies perhaps i should have |
| 02:20:30 | said this at the um beginning but i'm afraid i do have to leave at half past 12 so i'm very sorry i won't be able to join you which is the family's first grant recommendations and i think we've actually got matt hayes here to present this thank you very much yeah thank you i will take the reporters red if that's okay and i'll just pick out some main points which are probably worth highlighting just as a matter of course so over the last um especially we've been um working hard as a multi-agency group to look at how we |
| 02:21:16 | go through the recommissioning of the family's first program here in flintshire so as as outlined in the report for the last nine years we've been operating on a consortium model and that's had a mixed success really and i think one of the challenges that faced is that it's been really hard to articulate what those successes and what those areas for improvements are and that's what we've picked out through um you know we're working over this last 12 months about how we well one of the improvements which we intend to make so we have um collectively |
| 02:21:49 | developed three priorities those priorities are based on the needs have been fed through from our feedback and our consultations with parents and service users so those are the parents young people have their needs met effectively by playing a key role in shaping and delivering the support that they receive the second one is parents young people and families receive the right help at the right time and then the third one is parents children and young people confidently maintain strong positive relationships the relationships element has been a key theme |
| 02:22:22 | throughout all of our conversations and consultations and our work that's taken place both through the families first program but then also through a range of our other programs and what we have articulated in the report is that we see families first really as a conduit to working in and across other service areas and meeting the corporate priorities of flinch account council so an example of that would be through the likes of youth homelessness if we look at the main causes of youth homelessness that would be that young people at the age of 18 are asked |
| 02:22:58 | to leave home and then present to the youth homelessness team stats would tell you that's usually on a friday afternoon saying that they have nowhere to go so if we play that back and follow and chart the journey of that young person and that family throughout their life there will have been times where key interventions could have possibly have prevented it that would have saved not only a lot of heartache but also a cost to the local authority in terms of how much homelessness actually costs local authority but it goes beyond that because |
| 02:23:36 | there is there's a there's a human cost to it as well so the human cost being that people who are or young people at risk of homelessness their outcomes will be far less in terms of their education attainment their future employment and their opportunities to go on to further training which again places more strain in terms of other service areas so the the crux of families first and what it was set up to do when it first came into being was to be an early intervention program what's actually happened through no fault of its own really is that over time with the |
| 02:24:21 | on funding with the pressure on other services is that it morphed into more of a crisis intervention what we've done is taken this opportunity to really pull back and say that the original purposes were for earlier intervention if we can address the issues earlier and it does take it's you know it's a brave decision to say we need to stop doing the crisis work we need to do the early intervention work what we're not going to do is abandon that responsibility but what we do need to do is tackle that in another way so you know beyond this we'll be talking to cabinet we'll |
| 02:24:56 | be talking to local authority but there will be a pressure in terms of conversations being needed to be had with the likes of um betsy codwallader uh public health board because their public health areas that need to be addressed through some of the the gaps i suppose in terms of what we will leave what we will pick up a much earlier intervention those priorities will um will support that so there is a compelling case for change um like i say we're currently dealing with crisis work there is a legal obligation um which is far more pressing so a lot of those services |
| 02:25:31 | have been um commissioned um and and those contracts have rolled on for a number of years the um commissioning law commissioning rules now tell us that we need to go to a new commission or recommission the current grant recipients um support a new approach and that's evidenced through the um the research that we've carried out and and the biggest challenge that we've had really or the biggest challenge that we face is that over time funding is not kept up with inflation or funding has um being cut that means the services have been |
| 02:26:09 | so ultimately the the original purposes are no longer met and i think it goes back to one of the things i've already said is that trying to evidence that has been has been pretty difficult so we're reliant upon what partners tell us and you know sometimes um we have to take that as given but can i confidently say that it's having the impact that we should be having um no i can't and and that causes me some concern so in terms of the new way of working um we've an outcomes framework within that outcomes framework there's a number of indicators and |
| 02:26:42 | measures one of the um the first jobs really moving on from um this point forward if we if the recommendations are passed is that we'll put the meat on the bone in terms of what that looks like and we'll start to work with um our range of partners to do that we will um put monitoring evaluation and learning system into place so that'll either be the internal system which is currently used by fly and start or we'll um externally commission one both will be um fit for purpose and both will give us the information that we need as part of that offer and not to add |
| 02:27:20 | to any future workload pressures but what i would like to do is a members workshop in the new year and also to come back um on an annual basis just to present the actual um progress that we've made both in terms of monitoring um and our learning from the families first program which i don't believe has been done for quite a while we're appropriately going to fund services um so we can do it well and do it properly um to stop the underfunding really and i think we have to be realistic about what families first can achieve we're talking about one and a half million pounds |
| 02:27:57 | worth of funding it can have a significant impact um but it won't be the answer to all things but what it will do and what it can do i think is set the it can set the direction of our future travel and i think this is one of the areas which um it's one of our most challenging areas but i think it's the most exciting area is that we can really look at some key workforce development and i think where um we're currently working is there's a lot of silos i think we can break down those silos and we can start to share |
| 02:28:26 | some of those outcomes so to give you an example of that i think about my own service within youth service and think about what a traditional youth worker does they do a tremendous job and they work really hard but do i think we could do more yes i do not by working harder but by certainly working smarter so some of that work which would lend itself to how we work within families first so that would be we would pick up some of the parents in work which is currently delivered by other services that in itself would start a case hold or case manage within one single |
| 02:28:58 | service which would be a much better offer for a family the other things that we could do is potentially some play work so we would drop the ages again that's challenging because welsh government would tell you that play youth work happens between the ages of 11 to 25 i think this is where we need to break the mold and start to look at a youth worker theoretically if they're working with a family would have the skills to do some play work as well or work with younger age so we can certainly start to address those things we've evidenced those approaches |
| 02:29:31 | you know quite rightly so through the transition playing youth work that we've currently got running and those things are already in play and those things are happening there's a lot more work that we can do around counseling and supporting mental health and well-being both within young people but also within the family unit and i think that's something that we're keen to do and then the other thing that this this approach does not just through um through youth work but through all of the services that are funded through families first who have agreed to |
| 02:30:02 | this approach is that um we will start to look at the the continued professional development that's on offer a lot of that can be delivered in house so we've already got um trainers who can train up parenting as an example and improve those skills so it's not necessarily a cost issue it's a reframing of how we work and it's changing the culture of what we do the benefits of that will be that we will potentially be a much um much more positive employer or people will see us in a more positive light when they're applying for jobs with us |
| 02:30:40 | because they'll see the the range of things that you can get involved in and how you can be upscaled the negative is potentially that you know we we're having highly skilled staff who would be employable elsewhere um and they would walk into other jobs i think that's a risk that i'm happy to take because i think the benefits in terms of the office of children um young people and families far outweighs um what we currently offer so that's the that's the case for change really it's a much more sustainable way of working and you know we all sit in meetings um |
| 02:31:17 | be that cabinet committee or um you know our day-to-day work and that there's no new funding coming into our services and we don't envisage there any new funding anytime soon so the only way we can grow is by growing what we currently offer and through our workforce and by working like i say by working smarter so that's the offer really in terms of um where we hope to go with this so i'm happy to take any questions on the report or what i've just raised first of all i've got to thank you for the report and bringing it to this committee |
| 02:31:53 | i don't believe we've had it before in the time that that we that i've actually been on this and it's i'm going to add an additional recommendation at the end that you bring the update report to this committee when you're ready to bring it in and we'll add it to the forward working plan through it um i've got uh one council at the moment who wants to speak which is councillor mackey thank you i was absolutely confused i'm sorry straight up um first of all we definitely haven't seen this a report from uh about families first for the last |
| 02:32:34 | two years because i took the trouble to go back over the two years i looked at every single front page that this committee has had we didn't have any reports about families first i did a search on the um committee agenda for families first and i couldn't see a report beyond 2018 um and um that actually had families first in it um and the actual report the only report i could see to this committee i think was from two or two thousand and three i can't remember exactly so i i'm i'm confused just so you can help me a bit you said there you've got new |
| 02:33:20 | outcome expectations what where do i find them sorry i haven't picked them up as such just as a starter please no sorry so there's national guidance um so we follow the national guidance so we've taken that a step further so on the basis that um the this the recommendations are accepted today then we will build up those further program outcomes so that they exist locally so what i can say is they don't currently exist locally so you're absolutely right um so when we get into this there's a report here that's written a year ago april 24 is it um |
| 02:34:25 | june 24 sorry i think we could have seen that before this uh at least that would have given us a sense of the sort of where we're going to um and in i mean i was amazed to read some of things in this report um and that's been going on that that we don't seem to have known about and i'm sorry that we've got a new ipad and it's it's it's not giving me what i want um on page 69 uh the idea behind the consortium was for all parties irrespective for the lead all having the same say on how the delivery of overall project was run this sadly changed as |
| 02:35:07 | time went on and decisions have been made without the whole consortium's agreement or input this has caused dissatisfaction and a sense of umbrage between some partners so it looks to me as if there's problems and if we go on you refer to a consultation which i think is at appendix three i'm not sure if this is appendix three it doesn't say it is is appendix three a letter to parents and carers um i don't know and and i don't know what this this final appendix is it looks as there's something to be taken out of another report and and and placed in this report um |
| 02:35:56 | thank you councillor mackey yeah through the chair um matt would you like to yeah thank you so i think that's part of the reason so um we'll just come back to your first point the where we're at with families first program is that the the budget sits with education and youth the program sits within the wider ccg which is in children social services so in many respects i'd agree with the points i'm not going to try and defend them is that it's confusing and it's confusing about where it sits what we've spent time doing what i've spent time doing is you know |
| 02:36:38 | with colleagues is unpicking that simplifying it and bringing it here today to acknowledge that you know the the work around the recommissioning has been working in earnest for the last 12 months has probably been discussed since we did that initial report well before the initial report and the consultation with our service users um so for a long time it has been in the process of we were up against the fact that the commissioning rules changed and we have had um some staff move which we lost a lot of expertise with the staff movement and then we've had to go external to buy |
| 02:37:21 | in the external expertise to be able to go through the commissioning so they're not excuse they're not excuses they're the reasons why we're at where we're at now what we plan on doing and then this is the plan for where we're at is that we needed to recommission there's a legal responsibility for whatever reason we found we would have to go to recommission anyway well like i said at the beginning of my opening is that one we need to do a member's workshop and two we need to bring this back on an annual basis because for all the reasons that you've mentioned are absolutely accepted |
| 02:37:53 | is that the family's first program has not come through committees because i think it sits between two stools now that that's a reason it's not an excuse so what i'm saying today is that here's the report as part of those recommendations this is where we'll take it and and that's how we want to move forward so i'm not going to try and defend those things um likewise in terms of what we've done with the the last appendix the last appendix is the impacts questionnaire is that the one you're yeah because so this was the the incident so when we were when we were making decisions based on a |
| 02:38:52 | strategic level we're asked to consider the integrated impact assessment so that is the integrated impact assessment the question was whether we do we put it into the report or do we attach it as an appendix because we were unsure about whether it went in or not so we felt that we we'd include it because it's the justification for our decision making councilor mackey can you turn your mic on yes i'm sorry what i'm saying everybody who didn't hear me is that it doesn't really have anything to set it in place it doesn't have a description |
| 02:39:34 | what it is i'm sorry i was just confused by the whole thing i couldn't i couldn't really get anything from it and if i leave it's nothing to do with you at all it's because i've got another meeting at two and i need to get home for some lunch thank you thank you councillor mackey uh claire would you like to come in at this point yeah thank you chief officer uh yeah sorry uh chair yeah you're confusing me now we've swapped roles today um no i take councillor mackey's part and i should have picked it up when i was proofreading the report that perhaps the appendices |
| 02:40:06 | are not clearly labeled well enough for you so we'll we'll take that away councillor mackey you're absolutely right but as matt says it is it is the impact assessment that we've done i think i appreciate that this hasn't come through to committee for a very very long time but i think matt's articulated the reason why this is a grant funding that's been in place for a very very long time that for for people in the teams has sort of just been business as usual matt came into the three years ago now and i'm really grateful to matt because actually i've seen how he's grasped |
| 02:40:39 | this particular issue and has provided real strategic leadership because it is a cross portfolio and sort of cross council that you know we've got colleagues from different services haven't we that sit around the table that you know are all involved in the delivery of this grant funding and obviously the impetus for bringing you the report is that you know we have got to go through a proper procurement and recommissioning process but in order to do that and as matt has articulated to be able to really identify what the purpose of this funding is for |
| 02:41:09 | and to have better systems in place to be able to articulate to you whether it's being effective or not there's had to be a lot of work undertaken in the background you know across with other colleagues and what's and that's included as one of those appendices what's clear is that the systems in place haven't been good enough and that we haven't been able to generate the kind of data that we need and the reporting mechanisms have not been clear so it's almost like right tear all of that up matt and other colleagues have done a really good piece of work i think in |
| 02:41:40 | analyzing the strengths and the weaknesses perhaps in the you know the previous program and they're now trying to reset it within the context now of new commissioning that will have far clearer outcomes you know so this is very much work in progress so we wanted to bring it to you because it's critical in terms of timescales that that's this recommissioning process goes ahead and then part of that forward work as matt has described it is how we can then use better systems and have clearer targets and key performance indicators to then be able to report on the |
| 02:42:12 | impact but the point of matt's comments as well as he quite rightly says is there's no more money we get less we get less out of the money that we get because of inflation we've got an issue in services which is overwhelming when what we're saying is actually if we looked more strategically at different parts of our workforce and youth workers and play workers have been referenced here today there is the opportunity through their engagements and their relationships with families because they engage with our services elsewhere whether it's the play schemes whether it's youth |
| 02:42:46 | clubs actually we've gotten into those families because actually successful interventions are based on relationships so actually it's how we can better use them and actually then better skill our workforce to be able to undertake some of those interventions rather than have to bring in another outside agency because if you're a family in crisis you could have seven or eight different agencies all trying to work with you at the same time that's overwhelming and it's not effective so that's why we are where we are now and if that is helpful matt are you comfortable |
| 02:43:17 | that's a summary of why we're at but you know without matt's leadership i have to say we wouldn't be in this position now and i'm really grateful to matt you know and other colleagues you know who've contributed to that matt i'll let you come back in a second but i want to say that you're actually doing a really good job here looking at this report that you've actually brought it's instead of actually different sectors working in silos it's bringing everybody together under one heading to be able to do this what you're actually doing and i can understand |
| 02:43:55 | that it's got to change and it's got to go forward and renew one of my questions and i'll only ask the one i have got a list of questions but i think i'll just leave it to one will there be a smooth transition for the families because that's that's the outcome of this part of the smooth transition yeah matt it raises really good points so that's one of our challenges and it will be a challenge because we'll have to make that as smooth as possible but also if you were to ask us today how many families are sitting within families first |
| 02:44:36 | program we probably really struggle to answer that question because we haven't or that data is collated in so many different places so yes it will be a smooth transition because we'll make sure it is because that's the minimum that we should be offering to the families and young people who are involved in this program but also part of the structure that we're going to put in place is that there'll be a working group who will work together so those on the ground delivering will have a forum where they can meet on a regular basis to be able to discuss the issues that they |
| 02:45:06 | need to discuss and then likewise there'll be a strategic management group that would feed directly into the wider ccg and they would pick up the kind of performance issues if you like based on the management data so what it does mean is that instead of waiting for reports from a wide range of different organizations on a three to six monthly basis is that we'll have live data that we'll be able to act upon within a much quicker time but you know claire is right and the point of working with you know maybe eight or ten different agencies we've actually |
| 02:45:36 | sketched it out where there's been a hundred agencies involved with families and that's just so what we do want is just that one consistent approach so which would go and lend itself to that one worker you know regardless of whether they're working whether that may be therapeutic services there's no reason why they through the workers group or the strategic group shouldn't be feeding into youth services place services wherever it may be to say that these are the interventions that are in place you can do some work with them but there is a point of |
| 02:46:07 | contact because it is it's a transaction between us as service providers and families but that has to be created together so that's where the transition will come in because there'll be a point of contact which will ensure that there's a smoothness in handover but also that there's a brokerage that would happen with that lead service and where that relationship is strong i just always think well why break it because that's where things really break down and then somebody's waiting for a phone call the phone call doesn't happen we lose people so as part of it as well |
| 02:46:44 | but we will be which which goes on to the letter which we're sending out to parents which kirstie martin has so kindly led on for us but this is where we'll be looking at those journeys taking that feedback back from those families so we will be able to tell you exactly what we're being told in terms of those those stories so i'm going to take one more speaker on this and it's councillor andrew parkers thank you andrew yeah thank you chair and thank you matt for your report and and all the work you're doing i want to say that first of all because you |
| 02:47:25 | know clearly you've got a big task and you're doing it well i do i do share councillor mackey's concerns about the way the report has been put together i don't think it's particularly clear struggled with it as well so i think that's something to take away for the next next report i just want to want to clarify the recommendation um three on page 56 to make sure that i understand it it says to endorse the flincher outcomes the family first as follows and then it lists the three outcomes my understanding from this sort of discussion is that those outcomes haven't |
| 02:48:03 | currently been fully met but these are the objectives for the future is that my understanding because if if that's the case i'm happy to support that you know that is what we want to achieve but from what has been said uh you know by many people is that that hasn't been consistently achieved today did you is that is that a correct understanding yeah that'd be a correct understanding so the these are the from the from the working groups from the feedback that we are from parents and um service users this this is where we if we're going to have a successful families first |
| 02:48:38 | program this is what needs to be in place so these are our three outcomes this this is what we'll work to but this is also what will hold all of our partners to account um within this way of working so you know we are we are looking at do we move to more results-based accountability that's not to say if you try something and it fails you don't fund it but actually if you're not engaging parents and you're not following the values of families first the outcomes of families first is defined and agreed by the collective then actually it doesn't sit within the families |
| 02:49:09 | first program because um that that co-design that right place that right time um you know those things are fundamental or we see them now as being fundamental to how we achieve success now obviously there's a test to that and you know time will be the test and the way in which we work and i'll hopefully come back within that 12-month period as agreed today and i'll quite rightly be challenged on are we achieving those things um and that's what we want we want that challenge because we want to prove that this is the way of working likewise with our um you know with our staff |
| 02:49:49 | and and how we're looking to change the staffing structures um you know and our staff work in theory that that's a positive way of working it's a future-proof way of working but like with with this program it needs to be tested um you know and we need to test ourselves for alternatives to be scrutinized and i think that's you know that's why we're out thank you matt for that uh i wasn't going to take any more questions at this point because i i i've got the feeling that it will run into another meeting for this afternoon and i know that people |
| 02:50:27 | need to get away but my big thing is to thank you for coming to bring this report to us and if there's anything is there anything different you wanted to say right okay thank you right if we move to the recommendations we're going to alter one of them as asked by councillor andrew parkhurst we'll change that word to from indoors to support so if we go through the recommendations we'll do them on block if that's okay so first one that the recommendation proposal is supportive and accepted in order to progress with internal external commissioning two the officers are |
| 02:51:02 | supported in the shift towards a more collaborative and flexible approach which supports partnership working and shared outcomes while utilizing the strengths of internal services supported by uh commissions number three to support uh the flinch your outcomes for family first as follows one parents children and youth people uh people have their needs met effectively by playing a key role in shaping and delivering the support they need two parents children and youth people receive the right help at the right time preventing challenging for escalating |
| 02:51:46 | crisis three parents children and youth people confidentially maintain strong and positive relationships and then the final well not the final one because i've added another one so four to support the strategic and operational needs to upskill staff with a range of specialisms across flinch your first partnership which will not only help ensure that the journey through family first is more efficient and effective but also create a high skilled and resilient workforce within flinch county council and if everybody's okay with this i've added five |
| 02:52:22 | that family first report the update report comes to the youth on a yearly basis onto the education if everybody's all right with all five of those can i have a proposal for councilor lister and a seconder i've got debbie owing online so if we're all happy that can i have a show of hands please thank you that and thank you matt for presenting that one if we move swiftly on to item eight which is power of play in uh schools and i believe it is darren morris who's going to present this one thank you i'll give you a whistle stop tour of of the |
| 02:53:06 | this afternoon well it's fine um so i came to you in october with all our community provisions and so on that we delivered um and we are now in our second year starting to deliver within our primary schools in flincher um the reasoning around this was having conversations with teachers and head teachers around children playing during lunch times and the new curriculum for wales and including play as part of that and so on so we we came back and we we came up with the first project that we delivered really which was play pals play pals is a project six-week |
| 02:53:48 | project which aims at empowering young empowering the children in the school and for them to their rights through the uncrc but also for them to be to become those play ambassadors within the schools so you know they're not necessarily always needing a play team to go in we've we've equipped them and given that skill set to be able to do that um the positivity that we've received from um our schools with regards to this has been well documented within ours we've got a video as well which i'm not sure if kenny's going to be able to share or and send out later but one of the |
| 02:54:26 | things that we have had from one of our head teachers in one of the schools is the they've seen a dip in accidents during lunch times they've seen less poor behavior during lunch times they've seen an increase in children participating and attending so there's there's some real positivity from that from such a quite a simple project and we work with up to 30 children and their two-hour sessions and over a six-week period from there that from there we moved on then to start looking at other projects that we could potentially offer to schools and now i will be |
| 02:55:04 | clear from the get-go on this not all of our projects that we offer schools are free and but where we can deliver them for free we do and but as a service that doesn't receive a budget we have obviously look at the sustainability of the services that we offer but they are done at the minimalist of costs and the next project we saw was playful progress again that was kind of how can we how can we encourage that loose part play as part of the curriculum that they're teaching so we we focus the loose parts around whatever the subject of that school is teaching |
| 02:55:37 | at that time that would then enrich their the children's learning as part of that session and for that because of it being it's quite bespoke so we would have them conversations with the schools in advance and then we would set a plan for that session that we would share with the schools beforehand they've been well received as well one of the ones we did do during spring this year was loose lunch times so they used a lot of schools used to have and sheds loose part sheds within the schools you know after time they do become a thing that is just in the corner of the |
| 02:56:15 | room so what we would essentially do was turning up with a shed which was a big white van or they're now branded and we'd open the back up and it was just full of loose parts that then enriched that them children's lunch times they were being physically active they were enjoying it they were creating their own opportunities to play the staff were just there to facilitate it i think the positives from that are as well is feedback we've had from schools is that those lunchtime staff learned from our staff on how they can use loose parts and not be |
| 02:56:47 | too scared of the risk element of it and you know but even senior managers and management within the schools were coming out and saying that they actually had a little bit more confidence in some more and loose parts within those school grounds which for us is you know really important because naturally we want children to have every opportunity they can to play eco champions is a different project that's something we are delivering on behalf of the biodiversity team and they we met up with them for a meeting and they were looking at wanting |
| 02:57:17 | to do a project as a five-week project in schools but they didn't have the capacity to deliver and going back to that collaboration we deliver that now on their behalf but we do it through playful means so they're still learning on the subject we've got one member of staff that this is his bread and butter he absolutely loves it so he delivers them for that and also on the side of that we did support the climate team as part of the climate week where all schools were able to join online and monday to friday in the morning for a one hour sorry a 15 minute session but there |
| 02:57:50 | was lots of resources provided to the schools then to continue that lesson but also there was also resources on how they can turn games into that and so on so that was a real positive one i'm going to jump to one of the new projects that we've got up and running at the moment which is called play well this came off the back of a conversation in a management team with the inclusion and progression team we work we were funded to work within six schools and offer the project play well and then other projects that the schools would wish to |
| 02:58:23 | to take part in from what we've had the whole aim of play well is to work with children that may have experienced or have experienced aces or maybe have experienced trauma it could be those that you know struggle to engage in school as well we're just coming to the end of one school at the moment and so i haven't got any detail reports for you on that but i know from the feedback that we've received from the schools and what they've seen this difference within those children has been really positive and you know if i get to come back again to report i will |
| 02:58:55 | share that data with you as well but that's that's a 12-week program so that's a more intense program but they get to do it's child-led but there is a structured element to it as well because naturally as part of the work that we do we know we want to encourage that all children get to lead their own play and but there are structures around it with regards to their well-being and so on and so forth and on that note chair a whistle top i will oh one more one more thing one more project we have got up and running i should have remembered this |
| 02:59:32 | because we will be starting it straight after christmas and this again is coming back from what children have told us they want is we are starting a project called play explorers and that is all around using nature as a tool to play being able to be outdoors supporting well-being and we've we as staff going back to that upskilling staff to make sure that we can deliver these we've all been on this training we were cooking pizzas in the woods the other week and so on so again that that is enhancing staff skills to be able to actually start putting |
| 03:00:04 | some providing food in other other provisions not just in the eco explorers as well thank you darret that that as usual brilliant report and great presentation the enthusiasm comes through from you this committee it's always lovely to see you in this committee because it's it's the enthusiasm of everything so we're going to go to a three minute it's only three minutes presentation on the play so we'll do that first before we do go to question learning and seeing how creative kids are i like interacting with the kids and they like |
| 03:01:12 | and it's really fun to watch them have fun and get along i love playing with little kids and like the year ones and twos and i think it's great to see them play and interact with all the loose parts and stuff i make sure every kid gets to use everything they would like to use but not use at the same time and make sure they all share and have people well we make sure that they listen and like they're not fighting so like they're all included if a kid is alone i always say ask them if they want to come and help me build a model |
| 03:01:56 | i think what makes a good leader is when you all listen to the leader and you're not all shouting and all like i want to do this i want to do that and when people listen it just makes a little team if they can help and look after people because every kid needs to learn to play and get along with all their friends it's important to us to make sure that their minds are like creative just them all being included together and seeing them have fun i think it's just great them to just like play and with all their friends and stuff i have to say that behavior amongst the |
| 03:02:45 | younger children have definitely improved incidents with younger children behavior-wise and accident-wise um has dropped and at the time when introducing that with the midday supervisors some of them especially the loose part element of the play pals um were a little bit dubious because they saw a lot of these things as potential um accidents waiting to happen but managed correctly directed correctly by skilled staff and skilled pupils um we've minimized accidents less bumped heads and etc um but the biggest impact is on behavior and the social |
| 03:03:20 | skills of those children i would really say that it is a must have in your school thank you for bringing that to the committee it just puts it into perspective what it's all about and that it is children and going forward i'll move over to first questions from fran thank you thank you i think it's brilliant um i've got two young boys and i have to say that if i'm going to hear anything negative about school it's about lunchtime it's about break time and it's about issues that they've had with their play and that definitely is then affecting the way their attitude the way they go |
| 03:04:06 | into learn um so i agree with that at the end that every school should have it um i think it so actually do you deliver these sessions i'm correct um so can they yeah and the other thing oh what was i going to say i've forgotten now um i'll come back to me because i've just forgotten where i was going to go with that oh no i've remembered sorry um with um schools and lunches and everything they're often having to stagger lunches and i think it's brilliant that you've got the older children leading play and i'd absolutely love that but is that a bit of a |
| 03:04:41 | for you know for every school can you offer this in every school the other ways uh firstly yes we can offer it in camaraig 50 percent of the team are first language welsh speakers so we have done it in glan ravon we've done it in the skog wenfrid um and chris attie in shotton as well so um that's a real positive for us and i think it's probably really important to note there as well is that there is one of the weeks is around the welsh in it as well and how you can incorporate camaraig into play without without that forced element to |
| 03:05:14 | it um with regards to the delivery we're adaptable so we'll tend to we'll have them conversations we go meet with the schools beforehand you know what we want the project is what the project is but we also wanted to meet the school's needs um so you know if there are them staggered lunches and there's something we need to amend within that we can do that um but i know in um in the that's just been on the tally now that you know they do have um some of their older students that will stay out with some of the younger or they'll come out a little bit earlier for some of the |
| 03:05:45 | younger ones as well so uh but yeah thank you for that that really good answer and really it needs to be rolled out to all schools it i know the funding doesn't allow that at the moment but i think it's something very positive that could be rolled out i think we've got limbartlet next i just wanted to say i think it's absolutely brilliant um positive playtimes have a real impact on well-being and on the positivity of the school day so it's fabulous work and the mentoring of older children has such value that was absolutely lovely to see and going back to a |
| 03:06:23 | point that was made earlier about staff training this is a way that your training and mentoring staff and maybe staff visiting schools that have this in place would be a good way of getting it into all schools but brilliant well done what a lovely way to finish the meeting today thank you thank you lynn for that that's very it is a very positive thing and it's just really nice to have the final agenda item as an uplifting point um i think we've got uh next we've got uh thank you very much uh madame chair just sincere apologies i've had a few issues this |
| 03:07:01 | morning i've managed to get here but unfortunately it just looks like i've come to the end of the meeting i hope it was a very engaging one as this committee always is okay if i don't have any of other speakers i'd like to go straight to the recommendations i did have a list of questions darren but i think at this point i think i'll just email them to you okay so uh we've got three recommendations the first one is to endorse the flintcher play development the power of play in flintcher schools report two to commit to supporting the future of flintcher play development |
| 03:07:40 | schools and projects activities to support children's health and well-being raising attendance uh and supporting the reduction in lowering exclusion rates and three to recognize and significant contributions of informal and non-formal learning opportunities in delivering an engaging include inclusive education offer have i got a proposal in a seconda i have three proposals in three seconds uh take it can i have uh a show of hands support this unanimous chair thank you very much that was unanimous before i close this |
| 03:08:21 | i would just like to thank all staff that have been here today i think it's the last meeting before christmas and i was just want to wish them all a very very good christmas and new year and also i found out earlier that it's janet kelly's uh will be finishing before christmas she's taking retirement and i would just like to thank her personally for all her support in all of these in the background but she's done a sterling job and just have a lovely retirement so without further ado thanking of course steve and of course kerry which we could not exist just without kerry |
| 03:09:03 | so i would just like to close the meeting so |
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